SmugMug, CSS and you

[ivar]

This is a follow up from a post in a different forum.

What I would like to see is a streamlined top-down presentation for the reasonably technical user, telling me WHAT I can change and HOW. Not in minute detail, but in the sense of "to change the appearance of a gallery, you create custom entries to a CSS which apply in addition to, or in place of, the contents of a base CSS which is not modifiable. Here is a list of elements which can be changed, and a short description of each..." and so on. A "white paper" aimed at people who basically understand how a web site works in a technical sense, presenting an outline of a smugmug site in terms of naviagational structure, content, html, css and javascript.You bring up a good point here.

Okay, so let's say I will make a big writeup on CSS, SmugMug and you.

What do you want to see in it? What do you think is important? I am not looking for " how do I color my breadcrumbs? " or " how do I create a bigger margin at the top ". I am looking for more general stuff. " how do I make an object ", " how do I address an object ", " how do I know what the object's name is ", " what is a class? " etc.

I am a teacher and I strongly believe that if you know the basics, the rest will be so much easier. This writeup will benefit those who want to do quite a bit of customizing most. People who want the 'standard' smugmug layout with a custom header will have relatively little use for it.

EVERYONE, please chime in here :ear

[ebwest]

Ivar, I'd like to see all of what you mentioned. It would help someone like me that's not too CSS savy. After a few tries I did get a banner up and running:D.

[jim_h]

As a software developer I know how tough it can be to get the "new user" perspective. If this were my task I'd try to find a technically knowledgeable person - who's new to SmugMug - and let him create his own customized site, while I watched and answered questions. After an hour or two, I might have a an outline for a customization guide.

The word I've been avoiding is "architecture" and there are maybe 3 levels of knowledge to acquire. First, the basic site hierarchy of 'categories' and 'galleries', in terms of web pages with frames, divisions, dropdowns, links, graphical elements. Second, for each object in this conceptual tree, there is some set of attributes that can be modified. Third, for each such attribute, there's a way to modify it; it might be HTML, CSS or javascript.

Example: a friend asked if my SmugMug site could provide an RSS feed to his reader, so he'd know when I'd posted new photos. I think smugmug already has some RSS support - but it's been weeks since I last worked on customization, I've forgotten where to start. I think there was, originally, an RSS icon on my pages, and I suppressed that somehow, in javascript or CSS. What pages (galleries, categories) can it appear on? How do I turn it back on? What content can the feed have, is it configurable? Will my changes apply to all my existing and new galleries?

Another example: A statcounter site gives me a piece of HTML/javascript to embed in my site. At that point I draw a blank as to whether, where and how I could add it to my SmugMug pages.

If you actually undertake something like a customization guide, and are looking for review and comments, I'd be happy to be involved.

[Cindy]

This is a follow up from a post in a different forum.
Okay, so let's say I will make a big writeup on CSS, SmugMug and you.
I am a teacher and I strongly believe that if you know the basics, the rest will be so much easier. This writeup will benefit those who want to do quite a bit of customizing most. EVERYONE, please chime in here :ear

I avoid customizing my site like the plague. If you can make it fast, fun, and easy... I'd say go for it, I can hardly wait. I love making my site 'mine' and playing around with customizing... but frankly it takes FOREVER and I just don't currently have time. First I have to dig through loads of faqs and threads and try this and post this... By the time I get back to what I was wanting to accomplish I've forgotten why and how I wanted to do it in the first place and/or finally realize it's not worth the effort since it's not completely broke yet anyhow. All the headaches I end up getting with attempting to accomplish one little thing usually leaves me wishing I'd spent my time and efforts on something different and/or fun. Plus now that I'm on dial-up it takes an even longer forever... my pages are slowwwwww to load and for the past couple days they look like they're all loading on the left hand side then they move to the middle, then they slowly take the appearance they're supposed to... anyhow... Go for it, I can hardly wait to see if you make it easier. Oh yeah... plain English please for the non-css geek... No offence :D

[Andy]

First I have to dig through loads of faqs and threads and try this and post this...

So, another question - how do we make it more obvious, to just post a question, when a new person doesn't know where to start? Is Dgrin forum intimidating? I worry, b/c YOU are not a n00b to Dgrin and you post other types of questions...

Most of us here have the answers to the majority of questions at our fingertips, because we do this stuff all day long - when asked, we provide it - kind of like the librarian who can pull a book out of the stacks in less than a minute or two...

Help us understand this, thanks!

[ivar]

Ivar, I'd like to see all of what you mentioned. It would help someone like me that's not too CSS savy. After a few tries I did get a banner up and running:D.Thanks.

Yes, it will be beginning with basics, for people who have never seen a computer before :D

[papajay]

So, another question - how do we make it more obvious, to just post a question, when a new person doesn't know where to start? Is Dgrin forum intimidating? I worry, b/c YOU are not a n00b to Dgrin and you post other types of questions...

Most of us here have the answers to the majority of questions at our fingertips, because we do this stuff all day long - when asked, we provide it - kind of like the librarian who can pull a book out of the stacks in less than a minute or two...

Help us understand this, thanks!

Andy...yes on a couple of counts, I believe. First, as you note...you know the "answers" because you do this stuff all day long.
Second....Dgrin is WAY too intimidating for anyone who is not either saavvy (with computers, or web pages, or in Smugmug's case-photography), or (like me) just curious enough and/or adventurous enough to say, "what the hell...why not open an account and poke around till something starts to make sense!"

Suarora's Aunt Elsie is 90 years old (also happens to be MY Aunt Elsie), and she's "game" to try just about anything (runs circles around my dad...her 83 year old brother...on the computer). She absolutely LOVES my Smugmug galleries, but I can tell from Statcounter results she has difficulty "seeing the good stuff" (as is mentioned in Dgrin forums) without my leading her directly to it. Dgrin for Aunt Elsie?...forget it! "Forums?"(...what the heck are those?...must be pouring a concrete patio.) "Threads?" (I quit sewing years ago!). "Posts?" (...is someone building a fence?):rolleyes

I think we all appreciate you have to walk on a knife edge here. None of us, as subscribers, want Smugmug to be LESS than what it is, so a "dumbed-down" Smugmug would not be the answer. By the same token, finding a way to bring new VIEWERS and "potential" subscribers up to an early compentency level as visitors would be a huge boon to future subscriptions.

Perhaps a "click here for a Smugmug 'slideshow' tutorial that will show you how to get the most out of your first few visits to a subscriber's site" would be a way to do that....I don't know...but there just HAS to be a way to serve both highend and n00b (I had NO idea what this was when I first joined Dgrin...finally figured it out after seeing it used in numerous posts.)

[ivar]

As a software developer I know how tough it can be to get the "new user" perspective. If this were my task I'd try to find a technically knowledgeable person - who's new to SmugMug - and let him create his own customized site, while I watched and answered questions. After an hour or two, I might have a an outline for a customization guide.

The word I've been avoiding is "architecture" and there are maybe 3 levels of knowledge to acquire. First, the basic site hierarchy of 'categories' and 'galleries', in terms of web pages with frames, divisions, dropdowns, links, graphical elements. Second, for each object in this conceptual tree, there is some set of attributes that can be modified. Third, for each such attribute, there's a way to modify it; it might be HTML, CSS or javascript.

Example: a friend asked if my SmugMug site could provide an RSS feed to his reader, so he'd know when I'd posted new photos. I think smugmug already has some RSS support - but it's been weeks since I last worked on customization, I've forgotten where to start. I think there was, originally, an RSS icon on my pages, and I suppressed that somehow, in javascript or CSS. What pages (galleries, categories) can it appear on? How do I turn it back on? What content can the feed have, is it configurable? Will my changes apply to all my existing and new galleries?

Another example: A statcounter site gives me a piece of HTML/javascript to embed in my site. At that point I draw a blank as to whether, where and how I could add it to my SmugMug pages.

If you actually undertake something like a customization guide, and are looking for review and comments, I'd be happy to be involved.Thanks for the offer.

This will be a paper on customizing your smugmug account, using HTML & CSS. Styling using HTML and JavaScript will not be discussed, because I don't agree with using either one of them for styling in 99.99% of cases.

It will start with the basics (what is html, what is css). Building-blocks. Remember I am a teacher. I want to teach you the basics, so you can find the rest on your own. "Give a man a fish, and he can eat for one day. Teach a man to fish, .........."

What pages an RSS icon can appear on, is not related to customizing a site, and will not be discussed. It's also too specific. I don't mind spending some time on this, but I don't want to make this a 2000 page book.
Removing items will be discussed.

I'm working with another person on this, and the first chapter is about done :wink

[ivar]

I avoid customizing my site like the plague. If you can make it fast, fun, and easy... I'd say go for it, I can hardly wait. I love making my site 'mine' and playing around with customizing... but frankly it takes FOREVER and I just don't currently have time. First I have to dig through loads of faqs and threads and try this and post this... By the time I get back to what I was wanting to accomplish I've forgotten why and how I wanted to do it in the first place and/or finally realize it's not worth the effort since it's not completely broke yet anyhow. All the headaches I end up getting with attempting to accomplish one little thing usually leaves me wishing I'd spent my time and efforts on something different and/or fun. Plus now that I'm on dial-up it takes an even longer forever... my pages are slowwwwww to load and for the past couple days they look like they're all loading on the left hand side then they move to the middle, then they slowly take the appearance they're supposed to... anyhow... Go for it, I can hardly wait to see if you make it easier. Oh yeah... plain English please for the non-css geek... No offence :DNone taken :D

There's a problem with customizing, in that if you want something that is easy, and cut and paste, everyone can do it. Even my mother.
However. When you want something that doesn't have a cut-and-paste solution you either have to understand what you are doing, or you have to ask someone else to get it 'cut-and-paste-ready' for you.

Either way is fine, but most people see 'customizing' as 'scary'. They try without knowing what they are doing, or they are afraid to ask for help.

Customizing requires to have a basic understanding of html/css and how it works with SmugMug. I'm hoping to give that base with this paper, so that after reading it and trying the examples I give you (may take 30 minutes at most?) most pieces fall together and you can then do about 90% of all hacks on this forum, and you probably can even modify existing ones or create your own customization.

If you can make it through that thing we're writing (and everyone can), I know you will have so much more fun customizing :thumb

[ivar]

Andy...yes on a couple of counts, I believe. First, as you note...you know the "answers" because you do this stuff all day long.
Second....Dgrin is WAY too intimidating for anyone who is not either saavvy (with computers, or web pages, or in Smugmug's case-photography), or (like me) just curious enough and/or adventurous enough to say, "what the hell...why not open an account and poke around till something starts to make sense!"

Suarora's Aunt Elsie is 90 years old (also happens to be MY Aunt Elsie), and she's "game" to try just about anything (runs circles around my dad...her 83 year old brother...on the computer). She absolutely LOVES my Smugmug galleries, but I can tell from Statcounter results she has difficulty "seeing the good stuff" (as is mentioned in Dgrin forums) without my leading her directly to it. Dgrin for Aunt Elsie?...forget it! "Forums?"(...what the heck are those?...must be pouring a concrete patio.) "Threads?" (I quit sewing years ago!). "Posts?" (...is someone building a fence?):rolleyes

I think we all appreciate you have to walk on a knife edge here. None of us, as subscribers, want Smugmug to be LESS than what it is, so a "dumbed-down" Smugmug would not be the answer. By the same token, finding a way to bring new VIEWERS and "potential" subscribers up to an early compentency level as visitors would be a huge boon to future subscriptions.

Perhaps a "click here for a Smugmug 'slideshow' tutorial that will show you how to get the most out of your first few visits to a subscriber's site" would be a way to do that....I don't know...but there just HAS to be a way to serve both highend and n00b (I had NO idea what this was when I first joined Dgrin...finally figured it out after seeing it used in numerous posts.)It's always difficult to find a good structure for organizing such huge amounts of different information. Where do we put it, what do you call it, etc.

We are trying improve in that way. I think our new FAQ is already a step in the right direction. http://www.smugmug.com/help/customize-faq.mg
Don't forget our old FAQ either, right here in this forum: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=26043

Also, tutorials are a way of trying to make things simpler as well. This one seems to be quite popular for instance: http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/2160039

I'm not expecting to write something for 90 year old people here (sorry Aunt Elsie) If we need a 'customizing for seniors' let me know.

There is a lot of information on Dgrin. Maybe too much. By creating tutorials, and articles, i'm hoping the amount of information will not grow too much, or even become less perhaps. This would benefit all of us I think.

[saurora]

Thanks.

Yes, it will be beginning with basics, for people who have never seen a computer before :D

Well, I have seen a computer, Ivar, but I'm looking forward to your thread none-the-less. :D Like Brenda, I have avoided customizing my site "like the plague." Today I actually entered my very first code to hide the keywords from my site. Andy, I think Dgrin is intimidating only in direct relationship to a person's skills. It certainly has nothing to do with the excellent (beyond excellent!) communication available here with the moderators. The site is constantly improving and becoming more and more "customizable", which makes it more sophisticated. This is wonderful for longtime advanced users. With that increased sophistication comes an increasing degree of intimidation to n00bs to be sure and even to some of us not-so-savvy who have been around for awhile. Like Brenda, my patience level is low and I don't have much time (when the brain cells are fresh) to work on customizing. It's basically a language, and to speak a language well you need to use it every day (which you do). But I have to read and re-read, which becomes a long process. Right now I'm totally ignorant of CSS and I would be asking dumb questions like "Does it matter what code goes where?" "What are all these different symbols anyway???" I couldn't tell where one part of a code began or where it ended. Is there currently a CSS code thread for Dummies? Will Ivar's thread be beyond that or exactly what 'this dummy' needs? What's funny to me is that my very first computer-related job was doing some document programming. :D

[saurora]

There is a lot of information on Dgrin. Maybe too much. By creating tutorials, and articles, i'm hoping the amount of information will not grow too much, or even become less perhaps. This would benefit all of us I think.

Good point, Ivar. :thumb

[saurora]

I just found "Customization for Dummies".....(ask and ye shall recieve!) :barb

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=25441

[DavidTO]

I just found "Customization for Dummies".....(ask and ye shall recieve!) :barb

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=25441


Cool. What Ivar is working on is much more simple and basic than that. I think you'll like it. :D

[saurora]

That's a relief!!!! :rofl

[ivar]

Cool. What Ivar is working on is much more simple and basic than that. I think you'll like it. :DI hope so. It will start from the beginning, and hopefully be readable, also for people who never have read anything about html/css before. I'll see if I can use some analogies as well to make it easier :D

[ivar]

That's a relief!!!! :roflI honestly think that this is going to be something you will understand and possibly enjoy. Let me know if you have something that you would like to see in it :thumb

[twinsrus]

So, another question - how do we make it more obvious, to just post a question, when a new person doesn't know where to start? Is Dgrin forum intimidating? I worry, b/c YOU are not a n00b to Dgrin and you post other types of questions...

Most of us here have the answers to the majority of questions at our fingertips, because we do this stuff all day long - when asked, we provide it - kind of like the librarian who can pull a book out of the stacks in less than a minute or two...

Help us understand this, thanks!

I put a post in last night that says I know what I want my page to look like. (Down at the bottom of the first page or near the top of the second page - see it?) For instance, I want to have a banner. I also want to have a navbar. How do the two play nice together because they both have stuff going in CSS? Where do you put the code so one or the other doesn't get clobbered? I want a black background - no theme. I gave an example of what I want my page to look like. Do I need to be more specific in my requests?

That is part of my frustration. We have these amazing people at our fingertips, and frankly, the back and forth is okay, but very frustrating. And you guys, I'm sure, get tired of answering the same questions over and over and over again. I don't have a solution, but the nature of SmugMug leads to this kind of frustration. I had no idea there would be so much coding to get the look that SmugMug presents to lure one in. It's intoxicating. We all want our pages to look like that, at least I do. Getting there is very, very frsutrating, and I'm not sure having to tear it up and start over repeatedly is the way to learn how to do it.

[jim_h]

It's like visiting a new city that you initially know nothing about - not even how big it is, what's in it, or what you might want to see. The people are friendly and if you can find a police officer he will cheerfully answer any specific questions you have. But - there's no map.

I think FAQs are great once you're a little distance up on the learning curve. But a FAQ of 111 specific questions isn't a good entry point. I struggled for quite a while to get the big picture of what I could do with customization, what things were modifiable, and how. The answer is a mixture of on-line configuration pages, CSS, javascript and HTML, and the details are in a loose collection of FAQs, online help and user posts. When you post a question you have to wait for a reply, so can't just do it all in an afternoon. I ended up doing a lot of trial-and-error, looking at the HTML source for my pages, finding IDs of elements and names of styles, and experimenting with CSS. Some things I found were modifiable, others were not.

I've been able to get my site down to the bare minimum, which is sort of my style. There are still things I'd like to do, but I ran out of steam. And after a few weeks go by, I start to forget how it all to works.

What I'd like to see, in a nutshell, is a road map, a reference. A list of what you can do, and how. Note that I'm not talking about a tutorial, a set of examples, a step-by-step walkthrough, or an introduction to HTML and CSS. That's overkill for me - just give me the map and I'll figure out the details.

[twinsrus]

It's like visiting a new city that you initially know nothing about - not even how big it is, what's in it, or what you might want to see. The people are friendly and if you can find a police officer he will cheerfully answer any specific questions you have. But - there's no map.

I think FAQs are great once you're a little distance up on the learning curve. But a FAQ of 111 specific questions isn't a good entry point. I struggled for quite a while to get the big picture of what I could do with customization, what things were modifiable, and how. The answer is a mixture of on-line configuration pages, CSS, javascript and HTML, and the details are in a loose collection of FAQs, online help and user posts. When you post a question you have to wait for a reply, so can't just do it all in an afternoon. I ended up doing a lot of trial-and-error, looking at the HTML source for my pages, finding IDs of elements and names of styles, and experimenting with CSS. Some things I found were modifiable, others were not.

I've been able to get my site down to the bare minimum, which is sort of my style. There are still things I'd like to do, but I ran out of steam. And after a few weeks go by, I start to forget how it all to works.

What I'd like to see, in a nutshell, is a road map, a reference. A list of what you can do, and how. Note that I'm not talking about a tutorial, a set of examples, a step-by-step walkthrough, or an introduction to HTML and CSS. That's overkill for me - just give me the map and I'll figure out the details.

Amen.

[jim_h]

Well I hope my comments don't sound like a rant. SmugMug is a good value and I'm not going elsewhere anytime soon. I realize my 'minimalist' site isn't what the average person wants. It's up to SmugMug to decide if it makes business sense to spend time and money on the customization 'fringe'.

[Andy]

Well I hope my comments don't sound like a rant. SmugMug is a good value and I'm not going elsewhere anytime soon. I realize my 'minimalist' site isn't what the average person wants. It's up to SmugMug to decide if it makes business sense to spend time and money on the customization 'fringe'.
We think so. That's why we are soliciting this feedback :D

If you have needs/questions, try us out! Make a new thread, and ask 'em. You'll be amazed at how helpful Dgrin is :wave

[S&SPhoto]

Hi Everyone!

I’ve been a long time lurker here at Digital Grin and just wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. I wasn’t sure where to post this, but since I spend the most time on this forum, I thought I’d post it here. (I’ll also apologize in advance for the length!)

I’ve been interested in photography for a few years now and got back into the hobby a few years ago with a purchase of a Nikon D50. I’ve amassed a number of photos now from various trips, celebrations and events that are stored all over the place. My wife and I recently returned from a two week trip to India visiting friends and relatives and took over 200 pictures. After returning, I did a lot of research looking for a site that could be used to (1) safely store backups of all my keepers, and (2) share my pictures with friends and family. After doing a ton of research and reading more discussion forums than I can count, I basically narrowed my choice down to Smugmug and Zenfolio. I’m about half way through the two week free trial on both sites and thought I’d share my comments and lessons learned from a newbie.

What initially drew me to Zenfolio was the sleek, modern layout of the galleries and the relatively lower price of the services I was considering ($40/yr for the Unlimited plan vs. $60/yr for the Power Account). The fast upload times were also a big bonus, but that advantage seems less relevant now with the recent upgrade here. I also really like their collections feature which lets you combine images from multiple galleries without having to upload the files multiple times or making copies. You can also add descriptions to the collections as well.

One of the big advantages of Smugmug is the ability to customize your site (assuming you’re a Power or Pro user). I don’t know about you, but I find this feature ADDICTIVE. I was actually glad the site went down last night since it forced me to turn off the computer and go to bed! But the biggest draw for me is the community of users here who help each other out and share their experience and wisdom. I’ve never met Andy, Barb, Ivar, or Mike Lane, but I feel like I already know you all based on all the posts and tutorials you’ve written. And “jfriend,” if you’re not already on the Smugmug payroll, you should be!

So, knowing what I know now, what would I recommend to a new Smugmugger who wants to customize his/her site?
(1) Read Mike Lane’s excellent five-part series “Customization for Dummies (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=25441).” You’ll learn a lot in a short amount of time.
(2) Scan the two FAQ pages here (http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=26043) and here (http://www.smugmug.com/help/customize-faq.mg).
(3) Read the “How to Use the Firefox Web Developer Tool (http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1354921)” and “Site Layout (http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/2160039)” tutorials.
(4) Search the forums for any questions you may have. You’d be amazed at how many people have the same question as you.

That’s about it! Thanks for taking the time to read down this far and sorry again for the length. I have a list of things I already want to do to my site so rest assured, the questions will come!

Samir

[Andy]

That’s about it! Thanks for taking the time to read down this far and sorry again for the length. I have a list of things I already want to do to my site so rest assured, the questions will come!

Samir
Great post, Samir and thanks.
I'v'e merged it with this thread, where we're tying to make the Customizing experience even better.

:wave

[alberto3554]

(1) Read Mike Lane’s excellent five-part series “Customization for Dummies (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=25441).” You’ll learn a lot in a short amount of time.
(2) Scan the two FAQ pages here (http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=26043) and here (http://www.smugmug.com/help/customize-faq.mg).
(3) Read the “How to Use the Firefox Web Developer Tool (http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1354921)” and “Site Layout (http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/2160039)” tutorials.
(4) Search the forums for any questions you may have. You’d be amazed at how many people have the same question as you.
Hi,

Maybe the list Samir gave points to the real problem , the relevant information is spread out in too many locations and a forum might be too terrifying for new users to use.

We have smugmug help, dgrin howto's , customization for dummies in thread, wiki pages, lots of different info in seperate threads what lacks is consistency. All the information should be available in one location and searchable. I would prefer the smugmug help , dgrins howto's to move to the wiki ( yes i am a wiki fan :ivar, but please prevent the spamming currently taking place there) al known customization Q&A moved to the wiki/jotspot knowledgebase etc..

Maybe replace the dgrin forum with the wiki forum just for the integration possibilities.

Of course a document like Ivar is suggesting will be a big help also but only when it is part of a bigger system.

Bert

[aktse]

Samir gave a great list, but newbies have a problem with reading threads. They have questions and just want answers of where to put bits and pieces of code. You need to give people an option to copy and paste things.

http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/2160039 <-- is a good start.

Maybe make a style gallery FAQ, Wiki, etc. ... Make a smugmug gallery page that illustrates that one specific gallery style feature (4x4, etc.) and then in the comments, or somewhere, show the code and where to add it, etc. You currently have this, but it's all words. Pictures might work better.

[ivar]

Samir, Bert, Aktse,

Thank you all for your input and suggestions. Some of them have been used already for our new Customization: Start here (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=52812) sticky :thumb

This is unrelated to the paper we're writing, but I think it's useful to have something like this. A starting point with pointers to all resources available.

[saurora]

This is super, Ivar.....a Customization Road Atlas!!!! :thumb

[redheron]

Hi,

Maybe the list Samir gave points to the real problem , the relevant information is spread out in too many locations and a forum might be too terrifying for new users to use.

We have smugmug help, dgrin howto's , customization for dummies in thread, wiki pages, lots of different info in seperate threads what lacks is consistency.
Bert

I signed up with smugmug four days ago. There's fantastic information and help all over the place. But the "START HERE" signposts seem (when you first jump in) to be scattered around and pointing in many directions.

I like maps too. Perhaps, if the information is not all to be consolidated in one format, SM could post an unavoidable flowchart to help sequence things out for newcomers at their individual levels.

I did many hours of bushwacking through the info and managed to miss some pretty obvious stuff before I uploaded some images and tackled ivar's * tutorial.

*(great tutorial! ...a wording suggestion: instead of "navigate to your banner" perhaps "upload your banner to a gallery and navagate to it...) Thanks





(

[S&SPhoto]

Samir, Bert, Aktse,

Thank you all for your input and suggestions. Some of them have been used already for our new Customization: Start here (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=52812) sticky :thumb

This is unrelated to the paper we're writing, but I think it's useful to have something like this. A starting point with pointers to all resources available.
Ivar, this is helps a lot and is much better organized than before. I had bookmarked many of the links you included. Now, they're readily available and will hopefully provide a quick and easy way for newcomers like myself to get started.

Thanks.

Samir

[ivar]

Ivar, this is helps a lot and is much better organized than before. I had bookmarked many of the links you included. Now, they're readily available and will hopefully provide a quick and easy way for newcomers like myself to get started.

Thanks.

SamirI'm glad to hear it's an improvement, thanks :thumb

[ivar]

Hi everyone!

I have been working on a document about CSS/HTML/SmugMug.

It's nearly ready to go live, but I would love a few opinions. Especially from those who don't use CSS every day, but would still like to know something about it, at least enough to go customize their SmugMug site with more ease.

If you would like to help me, please PM me, or send me an email so I can give you the document. Thanks!

[Andy]

bump

[jim_h]

Yeah I'll look at it.

jimh@mcg.net

[ByronD]

This definitely strikes a chord with me, because I have just started a round of customizing and I can feel for all of the posters so far. Ivan & Andy, here's a few thoughts on how things can be improved for smugmug customizers.

Everything really is all over the place and spread out. Anything you can do to collect information is going to be helpful. The wiki might be the place to do this. I have been going at it hardcore several hours a day for over a week, and I still run into things constantly that I needed to know. I don't mean things like little random tips on how to customize, I mean major tools or architecture info that I should have been able to find in one spot. For instance, it was a few days before I found the web dev tool for Firefox and understood why it was essential to understanding things. I still have not found anyone mention how valuable the "Display Topographic Information" menu item is for debugging margin and padding problems. I found out about .loggedIn in one FAQ post that was frankly not something I was too interested in customizing, but I realized it was what I needed for something I did want to do. I spent a few hours going through nearly all of the FAQ posts, even if I didn't want to do what was in the post, I still learned about all these little things that add up to a larger understanding of how smugmug customizing works.

The comment about asking the cop in a big city where something is was a good one. What is missing is a higher level overview of the way the different customization options work together. For instance, I still don't understand how themes work overall. I know that you put your CSS in the control panel, and I know you can set a Default Theme for all galleries that don't have one (I assume subcategories also get this theme but I haven't tested that), I know that you can set a theme on a per gallery basis, I know that you can enter theme CSS in another box in the control panel and somehow make your own themes, and I think I know that you can set White or Black as the default in your site overall. I know that you can make various little gallery settings that turn elements on and off (that your custom CSS and/or theme can also affect). But what I don't know yet is how all this works TOGETHER.

I have found a few little clues. The FireFox web developer allows you to see various CSS groups, and I assume that the order that they are shown in is also the order that smugmug generates the actual web pages, but I am not certain. With CSS, this order is important to know because things override, but nowhere that I have found is this explained. I am going to have to do a bunch of experiments to try and reverse engineer this stuff out, when what I really want is a white paper that explains the larger picture of how the final page is built, and how these different pieces are read in and used to build it.

A newbie customizer starts by seeing something they want to do in the FAQ, then copying the magic gunk into the specified place, then it hopefully works. This kind of stuff is needed, and this may be all the farther that many people go, but the next step into more customization is a much bigger step up right now. It can be frustrating because we want to do something, and we know that the answer is probably somewhere in the forums, probably numerous times, and we know that it is almost certainly in the heads of those guys with the scary avatars :wink, but finding it is the problem.

What I would like to see is one place that you go for the "bible" on customizing, with overviews, getting started, tools to use, good CSS/HTLM/XHTML/Java books, links to Ivar's tutorials, FAQ's, etc. Then the dgrin forum would be still active and used for people to ask specific questions. When something comes up in the forum that is generally useful someone would migrate it to the main customization place (Wiki?).

One final thought. The FAQ is generally full of "how to do THIS" kind of links to forum threads. One problem with this approach is that the code in the thread has sometimes evolved quite a bit over time as people give their input. There was one thread I went to that had fairly involved code (the one about adding a keyword gallery to the Featured list) where people were going back and forth with corrections and improvements. This by itself is great and is exactly what you want to happen. But by the end of the post, I was not exactly sure which version to use, it had evolved so much. If the final result is copied to a main customizing place, then the user who just wanted the bottom line final result without having to understand the code (copy this gunk here, and put this other line of gunk here) would not get confused.

Hope this helps you take our pulse out here, and I am definitely looking forward to seeing what Ivar comes up with.

[Cindy]

One final thought. The FAQ is generally full of "how to do THIS" kind of links to forum threads. One problem with this approach is that the code in the thread has sometimes evolved quite a bit over time as people give their input. There was one thread I went to that had fairly involved code (the one about adding a keyword gallery to the Featured list) where people were going back and forth with corrections and improvements. This by itself is great and is exactly what you want to happen. But by the end of the post, I was not exactly sure which version to use, it had evolved so much. If the final result is copied to a main customizing place, then the user who just wanted the bottom line final result without having to understand the code (copy this gunk here, and put this other line of gunk here) would not get confused.

I am definitely looking forward to seeing what Ivar comes up with.

Exactly! Very well said. :thumb I think it's all the reading and re-reading and do this, opps no don't do that, do this instead... shew..... :bow

Can't wait to see what you come up with. I'm wanting to do some customizing myself but kinda holdin off for abit because I knew you were about to release something that might make all this stuff click in my mind a bit better.

[Cindy]

So, another question - how do we make it more obvious, to just post a question, when a new person doesn't know where to start? Is Dgrin forum intimidating? I worry, b/c YOU are not a n00b to Dgrin and you post other types of questions...

Most of us here have the answers to the majority of questions at our fingertips, because we do this stuff all day long - when asked, we provide it - kind of like the librarian who can pull a book out of the stacks in less than a minute or two...

Help us understand this, thanks!

So so sorry I missed your post earlier Andy. To answer... I don't know :scratch that's in part why I keep coming back and never giving up :rofl I know I'll eventually figure it out. Sometimes when I ask questions the answers do seem intimadating (sp?)... &/or I'm not sure what to do with what the info I got... or it's just way over my head overwhelming. Probably because I don't understand it and I've always been one of those kind of people that wants to understand 'how' or 'why' something does this or that.

The css, html, yadda, yadda, etc. laungauge should be easily recognizable and understandable to me by now... you'd think... but more often than not I'm still in the dark feeling like I'm reading a foriegn launguage... let alone try to write &/or edit it. Othertimes when I ask something I don't have a clue how to word my question... I know what I want (in my mind) but can't explain it because I don't know/understand the launguage.

Anyhow... if it helps at all I am starting to pick up on it more and more. I feel like somethings missing (in my collected knowledge) that once I get it, it'll probably be like a light bulb moment and then all the pieces will start to fall together like a magical puzzle or something.... then I'll wonder why on earth I complicated it so much (I'm hoping so anyhow). :wink

For one example... is there a heirarchy to all this css somehow? Somtimes I'll play around trying one thing and it ends up messing up everything else. In other words when editing our css what should we make sure we start with (body, boxes, commands, etc)? Why does one thing mess up a whole theme... and other things don't?

Waiting for my lightbulb moment, :D

[ByronD]

Cindy, I am new to CSS also, but yes it does have what you are calling a heirarchy. That was why I was asking for a white paper on the order that the themes and customizations are inserted into the html "stream" and the implications of that.

Maybe you can think of it as Photoshop layers, if that helps. It is very powerful, just change one line of code and everything changes all over downstream, but it can also seem bizarre sometimes.

This whole CSS thing reminds me about the old joke about the TV repairman who comes into your living room, spends a few minutes with the back of the TV off, then packs up, says he replaced a 10 cent part and hands you a bill for $50. When you ask him why he is charging you $50 for a 10 cent part he simply says that it was 10 cents for the part, but $49.90 for knowing which part.

[Cindy]

Cindy, I am new to CSS also, but yes it does have what you are calling a heirarchy. That was why I was asking for a white paper on the order that the themes and customizations are inserted into the html "stream" and the implications of that.

Maybe you can think of it as Photoshop layers, if that helps. It is very powerful, just change one line of code and everything changes all over downstream, but it can also seem bizarre sometimes.

This whole CSS thing reminds me about the old joke about the TV repairman who comes into your living room, spends a few minutes with the back of the TV off, then packs up, says he replaced a 10 cent part and hands you a bill for $50. When you ask him why he is charging you $50 for a 10 cent part he simply says that it was 10 cents for the part, but $49.90 for knowing which part.

Layers... oh yes I do indeed understand how moving layers makes the whole picture change :D
So... since this is a photography group... maybe they could put this CSS (yadda, yadda) in layers for us to understand :wink
That would be sooooooooo sweet!.......... I think :scratch :rofl

[Andy]

Everything really is all over the place and spread out. Anything you can do to collect information is going to be helpful.
Have you started with the "Start Here" sticky?
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=52812


For instance, it was a few days before I found the web dev tool for Firefox and understood why it was essential to understanding things.
We have it in our sigs, and in the faq, and our tutorials, all linked from that sticky. It's a great tool, glad you found it :D


I still don't understand how themes work overall.
Sounds like a GREAT topic for a post in the customizing forum, ask the question and we'll ALL Benefit by sharing with you :thumb

I am going to have to do a bunch of experiments to try and reverse engineer this stuff out,
But don't beat your head against the wall :bash - be sure and post a question - we are HERE TO HELP :D

when what I really want is a white paper
Ivar has one, it's nearly ready, and a few posts above he's offered to share it with anyone who wants it in advance. Also, on the wiki, there's customizing for Dummies (which is what Ivar is improving on). Have you used that?
http://smugmug.jot.com/Smugmug%20Site%20Breakdown
http://smugmug.jot.com/WikiHome/Customization/CustomizingForDummies4

Hope this helps you take our pulse out here, and I am definitely looking forward to seeing what Ivar comes up with.Thank YOU for the great input!

[Andy]

For one example... is there a heirarchy to all this css somehow?

Waiting for my lightbulb moment, :D
Cindy- take Ivar up on his offer and get the new doc :thumb

[ivar]

It's out!

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=54833

[Cindy]

It's out!

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=54833

Yippie! :barb I'm off start devouring it now.
Andy somehow I missed your post above or I would have got it sooner. Thanks so much ya'll! :thumb This is exciting.