>>> how to critique <<<

[Andy]

let's have a discussion on how to improve our critiques, so we can help each other out.

first, let me cover the difficult situaiton of you wanting to provide a critique to a photo that you find absolutely horrible! i like to think of this situation as follows.. lead with something good about the photograph.... anything, no matter how tiny.... it can be even about "A" for effort! put the meat of your critique next... "this shot is really oof. compositionally, you have placed the main subject with a telephone pole sticking out of his head, which looks really bad." now, provide a way to improve the shot: "next time, ask the subject to move (if you can) or, move yourself to a different angle, so that the background behind the main subject is less distracting..." finally, and this applies to new folks you are critiquing, or new folks that have say, just joined dgrin, try to offer some words of encouragement: "a good effort, you went out in the driving snow and got a decent shot... keep up the good work, try again, and i'm looking forward to watching your progress..."

easy, isn't it?

now... let's go deeper

there's technical critique: is the exposure good? focus? color? how's the post-processing? and remember, instead of saying: "boy, your snow looks really grey and dull...." try this: your snow is grey, flat, and dull. try overexposing in the snow and sunlit scenes, becuase the camera's meter gets fooled. a+++ effort if you can link a resource from dgrin that will help the shooter :D

composition: is the composition pleasing? say so! tell the shooter *why* you like the composition. where was your eye drawn? how long did you stare and appreciate the photo? if the compo is off, offer help - rule of thirds, golden mean, give a link if you think they could use it, etc.

emotions: how did the photo make you *feel*? did the photograph stir any emotions inside? bring up any memories?

finally, i would add that *anyone* at dgrin can provide critiques that incorporate any or all of the above.... let's try to do more than "good shot" or, "i pick number 3" :deal

please, if you have something to add, we'd love to hear it, right here in this thread!

enjoy (critiquing) photography,

[Andy]

i wanted to add that if you are on the receiving end of a critique... remember a couple things:

1. you placed your photo out there, so be prepared for *anything* !!!
2. your critiquer may have the best of intentions, but may not be able to put it in nice friendly words... typing on the internet doesn't convey the emotions we can when we're speaking face to face.
3. take all critiques, good/bad/thorough/terse, and learn from them.

[obelix]

Thanks Andy, critique even photos you consider good :). Tell us why you liked a specific photo. Knowingly or unknowingly, each photographer has a style, it will help develop that.

[ginger_55]

Oh, I have a suggestion that maybe no one has thought of. If we use letters as a shortcut, such as OOF, maybe we could do as Kelby does, the first time he uses it in a chapter, he spells it out, whatever......

I know I am picking up on letters and using them expecting to be helpful, but not everyone, especially people new to "the speak" knows what these letters mean. Even the most obvious. (And the really obvious ones I can't think of, as they have become obvious to me after about 9 months here.)

But I do remember the first time I saw OOF (out of focus), I also saw red as I thought I had been heavily insulted with a new word for "terrible". In fact, it was a while before I got those letters figured out, probably because of the emotions involved and the fatigue that can settle in after hours of this stuff. Now I have made those letters so famous in my family, they are used a lot. I still don't like them because of my initial feeling when I initially saw them. I am sure that by the time my family gets through teasing me, I will get over it.

Since then, I do remember the letters, OS and not knowing that they meant operating system, not that I would have known what "operating system" is.
Sometimes us newbies gone to intermediates can still be slow on some of the basics. I still would like to see a book printed up of those letters and what they stand for.

That is just a thought, something I have had problems with. Jargon takes awhile to learn, it is assumed in most cases that if we know one thing, we know another. Some of us are just learning at one level or another. My only contact with photography is on dgrin, so I would be slower than someone out in the field every day.

Please ask me to clarify if I say something you, or you, cannot understand.

ginger

[cletus]

Thanks Andy :thumb

[wxwax]

Horrible advice, poorly written and organized. I'd suggest reading a few books and brushing up on basic grammar and punctuation, then getting back to us.

Keep writing! Look forward to seeing your future work!



































:bad
:lol3

[Roger]

Oh, I have a suggestion that maybe no one has thought of. If we use letters as a shortcut, such as OOF, maybe we could do as Kelby does, the first time he uses it in a chapter, he spells it out, whatever......

ginger I totally agree with Ginger on this!
Besides people minding that not everyone is used to that type of common photographers/computer geeks jargon, they should also bear in mind that English is not the native language to many people around here (like myself)...

Roger

[gubbs]

I totally agree with Ginger on this!
Besides people minding that not everyone is used to that type of common photographers/computer geeks jargon, they should also bear in mind that English is not the native language to many people around here (like myself)...

Roger
Maybe a jargon/forum speak page in the hall of wisdom would be useful. I remember being stuck on a few:- BTW IMHO UE OOF ROFL WTF ROTWL, only last week I had to ask andy what chimping was :D

[ginger_55]

Maybe a jargon/forum speak page in the hall of wisdom would be useful. I remember being stuck on a few:- BTW IMHO UE OOF ROFL WTF ROTWL, only last week I had to ask andy what chimping was :D
I am still trying to figure that one out.

g:dunno

[muddyknees]

I would only add a :evil to you remark. Speaking of which, any guidelines on critiquing other's critiques?

-GAry

Horrible advice, poorly written and organized. I'd suggest reading a few books and brushing up on basic grammar and punctuation, then getting back to us.

Keep writing! Look forward to seeing your future work!



































:bad
:lol3

[snapapple]

I totally agree with Ginger on this!
Besides people minding that not everyone is used to that type of common photographers/computer geeks jargon, they should also bear in mind that English is not the native language to many people around here (like myself)...

Roger

Roger, thanks for the reminder about the language barrier. May I add something here. Some people have their location appearing by their avatar on their posts, some people don't. I find it very helpful to see a location as I read a post. It reminds me of the time zone and the weather where the poster is located. As I read a post, I can relate better when I realize, "Oh, he's in AUSTRALIA, the other side of the world. It's summer there." I'm in Califiornia, I have oranges in my yard, not snow. I don't know photography jargon or computer jargon very well. I'm still trying to figure out what LOL really means, although I think I get the gist. I just try to speak plain english, although I think it really helps to get the casual, friendly mood when you use commmon slang or type out words like "prolly" for probably. I love it!

Reminder, use the smilies in your critiques. It helps to convey the casual mood.

Oh, by the way, my location today is "Sunny San Diego", which is also "Muddy San Diego". We've been "under water" here for a week. I've got a hill of mud and two big boulders in my driveway. But, the sun is shining on all of it today. :D

[muddyknees]

Maybe a jargon/forum speak page in the hall of wisdom would be useful. I remember being stuck on a few:- BTW IMHO UE OOF ROFL WTF ROTWL, only last week I had to ask andy what chimping was :D
Hopefully this is not too OffTopic here, but I've been wanting to discuss a related convention - which msg in a thread to respond to. I really like these online threaded conversations because of how "naturally" it encourages a logical structure to the conversations that makes them very readable - as long as everyone replies to the msg in the thread whose content one is actually responding to. This is quite different to the "chat room" situaltion, where the structure is strictly time-based, which I find totally chaotic.

Of course on this forum the participants have several alternative thread presentation options, some of which are more like the chat room where the threaded nature is less evident. As a result, I notice that sometimes the newest msg is submitted as a response to the most recent msg read by the submitter, rather than to the msg to which it would most logically follow on a content basis.

An example of this is the submission of photo's in the challenge threads. In this case of course there is really no logical structure anyway, so it doesn't really matter, but it still seems strange to me to have someone submitting their entry as a "reply" to someone else's entry. (In this case it's probably due to convenience, especially because responding to Andy's original msg requires us to delete the long quoted content of Andy's original msg - maybe if Andy added a 2nd short msg just saying "reply to this msg when submitting your entry".

Atr any rate, the reason I mention it here is that if there is to be an "orientation-type" thread in the Hall of wisdom, (or a sticky thread here), maybe a "how to respond to threaded conversations" topic could be added as well for newby's who may be coming from the chat room tradition.

-Gary

[fish]

I'd like to add that not everyone is interested in critiques. I think it would be a bit of a bummer if dgrin turned into an overly critical forum.

Remember, we are a community first! Some people just want to display their images, just like they put images on their home and office walls. Would you walk into someone's home and start criticizing their artwork? :huh


So I would recommend that people be sensitive to comments like "what do you guys think?" or "all comments welcome" as being clues that the poster would like a review. If the image is posted with no comments or just a simple "look what I saw in my tree today...I'm so excited!", then please keep the critical comments to yourself, and feel free to say things like "That's lovely!" and "Nicely done!"

Okay? Great. As you were. :1drink

[Andy]

yeah... wat fish said :deal.. i was thining mostly of the challenges, where folks are posting specifically to get critiques. general shots type of posts, do not always warrant, and the shooter doesn't always ask for, critiques.

I'd like to add that not everyone is interested in critiques. I think it would be a bit of a bummer if dgrin turned into an overly critical forum.

Remember, we are a community first! Some people just want to display their images, just like they put images on their home and office walls. Would you walk into someone's home and start criticizing their artwork? :huh


So I would recommend that people be sensitive to comments like "what do you guys think?" or "all comments welcome" as being clues that the poster would like a review. If the image is posted with no comments or just a simple "look what I saw in my tree today...I'm so excited!", then please keep the critical comments to yourself, and feel free to say things like "That's lovely!" and "Nicely done!"

Okay? Great. As you were. :1drink

[lynnma]

yeah... wat fish said :deal.. i was thining mostly of the challenges, where folks are posting specifically to get critiques. general shots type of posts, do not always warrant, and the shooter doesn't always ask for, critiques.
I would like folks to say "Lynn that is an outstanding shot that should be on the Kodak photo of the year board".

Thanks.:encore

[DoctorIt]

Horrible advice, poorly written and organized. I'd suggest reading a few books and brushing up on basic grammar and punctuation, then getting back to us.

Keep writing! Look forward to seeing your future work!


you wanna tell him his spelling ain't so hot either? :D

[DavidTO]

on this forum the participants have several alternative thread presentation options, some of which are more like the chat room where the threaded nature is less evident.

I sure would like an education on what my thread presentation options are, and how best to use them.

[DoctorIt]

I would like folks to say "Lynn that is an outstanding shot that should be on the Kodak photo of the year board".

Thanks.:encoreI'm just glad you stopped working out. I was gonna ask you if you were developing an eating disorder. :rofl




(i'm referring to your avatar, don't want people to think I'm a jerk)

[Roger]

Roger, thanks for the reminder about the language barrier. May I add something here. Some people have their location appearing by their avatar on their posts, some people don't. I find it very helpful to see a location as I read a post. It reminds me of the time zone and the weather where the poster is located. As I read a post, I can relate better when I realize, "Oh, he's in AUSTRALIA, the other side of the world. It's summer there." I'm in Califiornia, I have oranges in my yard, not snow. I don't know photography jargon or computer jargon very well. I'm still trying to figure out what LOL really means, although I think I get the gist. I just try to speak plain english, although I think it really helps to get the casual, friendly mood when you use commmon slang or type out words like "prolly" for probably. I love it!

Reminder, use the smilies in your critiques. It helps to convey the casual mood.

Oh, by the way, my location today is "Sunny San Diego", which is also "Muddy San Diego". We've been "under water" here for a week. I've got a hill of mud and two big boulders in my driveway. But, the sun is shining on all of it today. :D I am located in Lisbon, Portugal and I have it on my profile, just can't figure out why it is not showing up :scratch
Can anybody give me a clue please as I have looked over the User CP and cannot find any related option?

Thanks!
Roger

P.S. The name of the American state would also help as not everyone knows what ND, CA, VA ot whatever stands for :smooch

[Andy]

I am located in Lisbon, Portugal and I have it on my profile, just can't figure out why it is not showing up :scratch
Can anybody give me a clue please as I have looked over the User CP and cannot find any related option?

Thanks!
Roger

roger, do you have lisbon listed in the "location" field?

obrigado,

[lynnma]

I'm just glad you stopped working out. I was gonna ask you if you were developing an eating disorder. :rofl




(i'm referring to your avatar, don't want people to think I'm a jerk)
Eric.. I had to put on my earmuffs and fur coat!! I was freezing in that outfit..:wink

[Roger]

roger, do you have lisbon listed in the "location" field?

obrigado,
You are most welcome, Andy!

I do have it in the only Location field I have seen (in Additional Information, last section of the Profile).:dunno

Roger

[DavidTO]

You are most welcome, Andy!

I do have it in the only Location field I have seen (in Additional Information, last section of the Profile).:dunno

Roger

I had this problem, it's a bug. I forget the exact solution, but I believe that there's a field in your profile just above location that needs to have something in it. Baldy is the one who figured it out for me, you could ask him, but first just try putting something in blank fields.

[Roger]

I had this problem, it's a bug. I forget the exact solution, but I believe that there's a field in your profile just above location that needs to have something in it. Baldy is the one who figured it out for me, you could ask him, but first just try putting something in blank fields. Thanks much, David!
I did it and now we'll see...:confused

Roger

Edit: Worked! :clap:clap:clap

[snapapple]

I am located in Lisbon, Portugal and I have it on my profile, just can't figure out why it is not showing up :scratch
Can anybody give me a clue please as I have looked over the User CP and cannot find any related option?

Thanks!
Roger

P.S. The name of the American state would also help as not everyone knows what ND, CA, VA ot whatever stands for :smooch

Hi Roger,
Just an aside here, sunny San Diego is in sunny Southern California. We have beaches and deserts, a few mountains, but not many trees. And no snow! :D

[snapapple]

Eric.. I had to put on my earmuffs and fur coat!! I was freezing in that outfit..:wink
I love your new avatar. Great picture, it should be on the Kodak photo of the year screen! :D Really, did you get your new lens?

[Roger]

Hi Roger,
Just an aside here, sunny San Diego is in sunny Southern California. We have beaches and deserts, a few mountains, but not many trees. And no snow! :D
And don't forget the infamous Santa Anna winds, Snappy... :yikes

Roger

[muddyknees]

I sure would like an education on what my thread presentation options are, and how best to use them.
I meant the "Display Modes" and was mainly referring to the Linear display mode, where the thread tree isn't shown.

[gubbs]

let's have a discussion on how to improve our critiques, so we can help each other out.

first, let me cover the difficult situaiton of you wanting to provide a critique to a photo that you find absolutely horrible! i like to think of this situation as follows.. lead with something good about the photograph.... anything, no matter how tiny.... it can be even about "A" for effort! put the meat of your critique next... "this shot is really oof. compositionally, you have placed the main subject with a telephone pole sticking out of his head, which looks really bad." now, provide a way to improve the shot: "next time, ask the subject to move (if you can) or, move yourself to a different angle, so that the background behind the main subject is less distracting..." finally, and this applies to new folks you are critiquing, or new folks that have say, just joined dgrin, try to offer some words of encouragement: "a good effort, you went out in the driving snow and got a decent shot... keep up the good work, try again, and i'm looking forward to watching your progress..."

easy, isn't it?

now... let's go deeper

there's technical critique: is the exposure good? focus? color? how's the post-processing? and remember, instead of saying: "boy, your snow looks really grey and dull...." try this: your snow is grey, flat, and dull. try overexposing in the snow and sunlit scenes, becuase the camera's meter gets fooled. a+++ effort if you can link a resource from dgrin that will help the shooter :D

composition: is the composition pleasing? say so! tell the shooter *why* you like the composition. where was your eye drawn? how long did you stare and appreciate the photo? if the compo is off, offer help - rule of thirds, golden mean, give a link if you think they could use it, etc.

emotions: how did the photo make you *feel*? did the photograph stir any emotions inside? bring up any memories?

finally, i would add that *anyone* at dgrin can provide critiques that incorporate any or all of the above.... let's try to do more than "good shot" or, "i pick number 3" :deal

please, if you have something to add, we'd love to hear it, right here in this thread!

enjoy (critiquing) photography
I'd like to add that not everyone is interested in critiques. I think it would be a bit of a bummer if dgrin turned into an overly critical forum.

Remember, we are a community first! Some people just want to display their images, just like they put images on their home and office walls. Would you walk into someone's home and start criticizing their artwork? :huh


So I would recommend that people be sensitive to comments like "what do you guys think?" or "all comments welcome" as being clues that the poster would like a review. If the image is posted with no comments or just a simple "look what I saw in my tree today...I'm so excited!", then please keep the critical comments to yourself, and feel free to say things like "That's lovely!" and "Nicely done!"

Okay? Great. As you were. :1drink I wondered why people had stopped slating me :rolleyes

I think that's a good point Fish, I always apreciate comments (good or bad) I'll remember to ask for them :thumb

[Andy]

here's a very good piece on how to critique (http://www.naturephotographers.net/je1001-1.html)

thanks to netgarden for the link!

[ginger_55]

I am one who is guilty on both sides of the fence. I can do better as far as not debating a critique.

But I really do have problems when I see a photo that does nothing whatsoever for me. I see no redeeming qualities at all. And that happens. However, I have always been able to say something nice about someone's baby and don't understand people who can't.

Sometimes, I say, "how beautiful, it is a baby"! "I love babies." I guess I could do that with a photograph. I also comment on how soft the skin is, I suppose with a photograph, I could comment on, "it has color, so nice".

But I really can't think of anything constructive to say, and I can be wrong, some of those photographs end up in the finals, not often, but a few times. I hate to hold someone back.

It is a problem for me, especially when I want to say, "can you just start over." With babies, there is no contest involved. Nothing is really on the line. And we all know about the ugly duckling, I have seen some really homely kids become stunners. (I did not say anything about a photograph a month or so ago, and others, did, it was one I thought should be trashed, but it became one very nice photograph. I was quite impressed and was very glad I had not said anything.)

I just wanted to comment that I appreciate the article, Andy, I am going to copy it. It did have some helpful hints that I can think on.

This has been a problem for me, and the more of a problem it is, the less I am apt to critique.

ginger