A question about DSLR's

[gus]

I can pick up a new Rebel with 18-55mm lens for about $1200 0z clams or a D70 with 18-70mm lens for $1600 0z clams.

Not interested in it being 100 bucks cheaper from istanbuldigital.com ...i live in a strange land re what a consumer gets & pays for it.

I know i could buy a tele for either & get reasonable results....buuuttt...

Would one of these cameras better than the other at macro or is that a glass only issue.

Basically...why should i buy this one over that one....why do you like your D70/Rebel ?

Do i have to shoot in raw if i buy a DSLR andy ?

[Andy]

it's the glass that helps you with macro and both canon and nikon have fine macro (and other!) glass.

what you should really be doing is research the pic quality of the two cameras. imo they both produce great results but there is a big difference in the output of the cmos and ccd sensors. and i think that it's a personal taste of which you like, really.

andy

[Mongrel]

Andy's is dead on about the 'look' produced by the different sensors. Although I shoot Canon digitals, I must confess to being somewhat of a closet Nikon fan as well. This isn't as much about which is better but a much more subjective "which do I prefer". In searching for words to describe it...I...really can't. As Andy said-do a search (I guess you could use Pbase, Photosig, or Usefilm-each allow you to search by camera), and look at examples from each one. See if you find yourself liking one over the other.

Now, having said that and the fact that I own a Digital Rebel\300D, I will say this:

If it weren't for the fact that the 300D was released six months earlier I'd be shooting Nikon (or at least a D70) today. From researching the 300D and the D70 side by side there just isn't a real comparison to be made-in MY opinion. I can't think of one area that the 300D surpasses the D70 with the exception of the battery grip availability (Canon makes one for the 300D, Nikon does not make one for the D70-yet). As far as glass goes-you can get quality glass for either one so I wouldn't sweat that.

Ok, here is where it gets tricky-

Once you move up from the 300D\D70 level of cameras the Canons start to pull ahead in MY opinion. Even when you consider the D2H and the Phantom D2X ('rumor' has is that were looking at March before they are available), I believe the 20D, 1D MkII, and the 1Ds MkII (ahh...heck I'll even through in the *old* 1D) offer more advantages....(you know what's coming right?)...in MY opinion. So if you are at your max budget with the 300D, I would go that route with the idea that the glass you invest in today will work with your body of tomorrow.

BUT!!! There is nothing wrong with going Nikon if that is what you prefer. Photography is one of those rare things in life where the equipment in the end really doesn't matter! Make a choice and take your best shot...

Tony

[Andy]

i'll add one things: 1 - i've *never* depleted a battery on my canon dslrs. they last a long time, so the grip is a non-essential item anyhow, imo.



Andy's is dead on about the 'look' produced by the different sensors. Although I shoot Canon digitals, I must confess to being somewhat of a closet Nikon fan as well. This isn't as much about which is better but a much more subjective "which do I prefer". In searching for words to describe it...I...really can't. As Andy said-do a search (I guess you could use Pbase, Photosig, or Usefilm-each allow you to search by camera), and look at examples from each one. See if you find yourself liking one over the other.

Now, having said that and the fact that I own a Digital Rebel\300D, I will say this:

If it weren't for the fact that the 300D was released six months earlier I'd be shooting Nikon (or at least a D70) today. From researching the 300D and the D70 side by side there just isn't a real comparison to be made-in MY opinion. I can't think of one area that the 300D surpasses the D70 with the exception of the battery grip availability (Canon makes one for the 300D, Nikon does not make one for the D70-yet). As far as glass goes-you can get quality glass for either one so I wouldn't sweat that.

Ok, here is where it gets tricky-

Once you move up from the 300D\D70 level of cameras the Canons start to pull ahead in MY opinion. Even when you consider the D2H and the Phantom D2X ('rumor' has is that were looking at March before they are available), I believe the 20D, 1D MkII, and the 1Ds MkII (ahh...heck I'll even through in the *old* 1D) offer more advantages....(you know what's coming right?)...in MY opinion. So if you are at your max budget with the 300D, I would go that route with the idea that the glass you invest in today will work with your body of tomorrow.

BUT!!! There is nothing wrong with going Nikon if that is what you prefer. Photography is one of those rare things in life where the equipment in the end really doesn't matter! Make a choice and take your best shot...

Tony

[jimf]

I can pick up a new Rebel with 18-55mm lens for about $1200 0z clams or a D70 with 18-70mm lens for $1600 0z clams. [...]
Would one of these cameras better than the other at macro or is that a glass only issue.

Basically...why should i buy this one over that one....why do you like your D70/Rebel ?

Image quality between the two is extremely similar IMO. The quality of the glass will make a much bigger difference.

If you have the choice, the D70 is a better all-around camera IMO. It has a number of features that the Rebel doesn't, although mostly I would call those minor differentials. The big difference is in write speed: The D70 is at least three times faster in data transfer to the flash card. That amounts to ~1.5s per raw frame on the D70 versus a whopping 5s per frame on the Rebel. That makes a huge difference in real-world shooting. Slow write speed, coupled with only a 4 shot buffer, is my #1 complaint with the Rebel.

If you are starting from scratch (no glass) then the D70 is a fine camera. Had it been available when I bought my Rebel I would have gone with the D70 instead, hands down. If you already have Canon glass then I would suggest the 20D if you can possibly afford it; right now that gets my "best bang for the buck" award. Heck, even "best bang for anywhere near the bucks" award. Too bad I blew my budget on lenses last month....

Do i have to shoot in raw if i buy a DSLR?

Of course not, but you will see noticable loss in fine detail when shooting in JPEG. I did some experiments using fine JPEG versus RAW and found that even at 5x7 the differences were obvious -- even to the amateur eye. Nobody I showed the shots to had any trouble picking out the RAW as the better shot.

I note that if you choose to shoot JPEG the Rebel's write performance issue is largely ameliorated.

[gus]

Wow !! some heavy advice gents. I do like the nikon...it has a very fast shutter (8000) which i could use (but hey..i dont even know how the rebels 4000 speed shutter can cope as i can only do 1000 atm.) Battery life is also a big thing to me andy.

I will certainly sit & digest all your replies.

Any one wish to wade into a laymans description re cmos and ccd sensors. Which is prefered & why ? I looked it up & it quickly got over my head.

[jimf]

Any one wish to wade into a laymans description re cmos and ccd sensors. Which is prefered & why ? I looked it up & it quickly got over my head.

This might help: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D30/D30A4.HTM. In practical terms I think it's not worth worrying about which sensor technology is used so long as you like the results.

[DoctorIt]

d70 v 300D really isn't fair. 20D v d70 is a little more like it.

I would have the same reply as above - if it weren't for the 300D coming out six months ahead of the Nikon, I'd have a D70. I was just impatient. The D70 is more camera - much better high ISO performance, more control over AF and the like, more speed (all the stuff that the 20D improved on over the 300D).

To be honest. I think you're already too good for the 300D. You'd be disappointed in less time than I was. Low light performance is what kills me with the Rebel. Ginger said it somewhere, the rebel is an awesome camera... with a tripod.

[CMaster]

To pipe in on battery life, for what it's worth...

I've had my D70 since December 21st and have taken about 200 pictures and uploaded all those to my computer and shot about half of those in RAW. The indicator on the battery level hasn't moved yet. Most of these pictures however were w/o flash.

[pathfinder]

d70 v 300D really isn't fair. 20D v d70 is a little more like it.

I would have the same reply as above - if it weren't for the 300D coming out six months ahead of the Nikon, I'd have a D70. I was just impatient. The D70 is more camera - much better high ISO performance, more control over AF and the like, more speed (all the stuff that the 20D improved on over the 300D).

To be honest. I think you're already too good for the 300D. You'd be disappointed in less time than I was. Low light performance is what kills me with the Rebel. Ginger said it somewhere, the rebel is an awesome camera... with a tripod.


'Gus needs a 20D. His interests in surfing shots call for long IS glass and he will not be happy with the focusing of the 300D for tele work and he will prefer the 20D for its speed of aquisition. The D70 is comparable, but limits him to Nikon land and 6.2 megapixels rather than 8 :D :D The kit lens on the D70 is very nice though.

[jimf]

d70 v 300D really isn't fair. 20D v d70 is a little more like it.

Unfortunately (for Canon) the price points of the 300D and 20D invites comparison between the 300D and D70. My presumption is that we'll see a 300D follow-on that is much more competitive with the D70 in the next few months.


To be honest. I think you're already too good for the 300D. You'd be disappointed in less time than I was. Low light performance is what kills me with the Rebel. Ginger said it somewhere, the rebel is an awesome camera... with a tripod.

I've been reasonably pleased with the Rebel's performance, especially given its price, except for how long it takes to write raw images. Image quality is quite good, it's worth putting good glass on it. But it didn't take long to hit its limits. What bugs you all about low light? It's fairly noisy at 1600, but not ridiculously so and it's not that hard to clean up the noise.

Then again all my film SLRs are entirely manual, and I like them that way :-).

[wxwax]

Humungadad, great feedback so far.

But there's a huge chunk being left unsaid about stepping up to a dSLR. And that chunk involves serious $$$.

Your spending will not end, not even close, once you buy the camera and a starter lens. In short order you may find you need to upgrade your computer to handle the large files - at a minimum you'll probably end-up adding more RAM memory. Next, you'll begin to wonder where you can store all these new, big files. External hard drive? Print only? Burn to CD or DVD? More money.

There's a decent chance you'll want to buy larger memory cards. Maybe an external flash, because they work so much better. A bag. Something to clean the sensor with.

And then ultimately, you'll realize how limited your starter lens is. You'll remember the zoom range on your current camera, and realize that your dSLR will need two, maybe three lenses to match your smaller camera. And at that point, my Ozzie friend, you are well and truly sunk. :hang

Just something to consider. You're buying into a different level of commitment that doesn't begin to end with the camera and a lens. It's like buying an expensive new house - your spending is only beginning. The taxes are higher, the upkeep is higher and you'll need lots of expensive furniture to put in it.

[Seamus]

My very humble opinion is to save for the 20d.

Shay

[pathfinder]

Humungadad, great feedback so far.

But there's a huge chunk being left unsaid about stepping up to a dSLR. And that chunk involves serious $$$.

Your spending will not end, not even close, once you buy the camera and a starter lens. In short order you may find you need to upgrade your computer to handle the large files - at a minimum you'll probably end-up adding more RAM memory. Next, you'll begin to wonder where you can store all these new, big files. External hard drive? Print only? Burn to CD or DVD? More money.

There's a decent chance you'll want to buy larger memory cards. Maybe an external flash, because they work so much better. A bag. Something to clean the sensor with.

And then ultimately, you'll realize how limited your starter lens is. You'll remember the zoom range on your current camera, and realize that your dSLR will need two, maybe three lenses to match your smaller camera. And at that point, my Ozzie friend, you are well and truly sunk. :hang

Just something to consider. You're buying into a different level of commitment that doesn't begin to end with the camera and a lens. It's like buying an expensive new house - your spending is only beginning. The taxes are higher, the upkeep is higher and you'll need lots of expensive furniture to put in it.
SO true, so true. I'm sure neither Fish nor I had any idea 18 months ago how much resources we were going to end up spending AFTER we bought our 10Ds. Lenses, MACs, new bodies, flashes, books for Photoshop, etc etc. But it has been loads of fun too, and the images can be MUCH better than I ever captured with film. The downside is that all that gear really DOES not automatically protect you from shooting lousy images and now you end up with no excuse :D :D

[fish]

The downside is that all that gear really DOES not automatically protect you from shooting lousy images and now you end up with no excuse :D :D
boy, ain't that the truth! :wxwax

[DoctorIt]

I've been reasonably pleased with the Rebel's performance, especially given its price, except for how long it takes to write raw images. Image quality is quite good, it's worth putting good glass on it. But it didn't take long to hit its limits. What bugs you all about low light? It's fairly noisy at 1600, but not ridiculously so and it's not that hard to clean up the noise.
I'd beg to differ. Used a d70 enough to know that ISO 800 on that camera is *not* even detectable, where it clearly shows on the 300D. Sure, you can fix it (partially), but the fact is, it's there.

I'd love to see a Rebel replacement that gave you AF control, just a little bit more speed, and better high ISO performance. I don't need 8mp.

[gus]

I thought i may be opening a pandoras box with the question but im seriuos about a new camera & need to find peoples real opinion...not a bipartisan look at things.

Thanks everyone whom has replied...great info.

Waxy i have a 2.4 gig machine running 512 ram ..120 gig H/D ..128 meg vid card. Im sure it can handle the photos but i dont think PS6 does raw, someone told me the fix here is just a plug in.

Whilst th D20 is a clear winner in choice ...i will start lower & when the upgrade is required in maybe 2-3 years i will be much better situated to look at what canon has there & then.

From what ive seen in the last 12 months of Dig Cameras is that the money does not change just the camera...much like computers. My old P3 500 was $2000 complete & a brand spanker P4 3.2 with all the bells & whistles is about the same now.

Thanks everyone whom has posted an opinion on these 2 cameras...

[gus]

Also not worried about storage cards if i start going into RAW as i have my little portable HD (20-30 gig) which is battery powered & can be charged on mains ac or from car ciggy lighter or GS acc plug.

[fish]

Whilst th D20 is a clear winner in choice ...i will start lower & when the upgrade is required in maybe 2-3 years i will be much better situated to look at what canon has there & then.
So if that's the case, I would recommend you pick up a used dRebel and start investing in glass. Then, when you're ready to upgrade the chip-holder, you've already got the lenses. Of course, if you do that and decide to buy a Nikon chip-holder, then yer scrood.

[gus]

So if that's the case, I would recommend you pick up a used dRebel and start investing in glass. Then, when you're ready to upgrade the chip-holder, you've already got the lenses. Of course, if you do that and decide to buy a Nikon chip-holder, then yer scrood.Yeah ..assuming canon is still in front with 'bang for buck' in that part of the curve.

Why do so many deal crack/heroin when they could just deal lens's legally...its a much stronger addiction from what i can see.

[jimf]

Yeah ..assuming canon is still in front with 'bang for buck' in that part of the curve.

It's probably fair to say that they'll keep leapfrogging each other every year to 18 months for the foreseeable future. The competition is good for all of us.

Why do so many deal crack/heroin when they could just deal lens's legally...its a much stronger addiction from what i can see.

Tell me about it. December saw me buy a 15-40 f/4 L USM and the wonderful 70-200 f/2.8 L USM IS.

And the software is almost as bad.

[fish]

Yeah ..assuming canon is still in front with 'bang for buck' in that part of the curve.
A bunch of us are heavily invested in the Canon brand of crack. They've been leading the way for many years and I have no reason to doubt that they won't continue to do so. I mean, afterall...Nikon licenses technology from Canon. Nikon tried to shoot back with their last couple of dSLRs, and both of them didn't exactly jump ahead of Canon, they were more of a catch-up.

Why do so many deal crack/heroin when they could just deal lens's legally...its a much stronger addiction from what i can see.
Probably because once you've bought them all, there's nothing else to buy. With crack and heroin, you always run out and have to buy more. At least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Wanna buy a lens, little boy? :deal

[gus]

Probably because once you've bought them all, there's nothing else to buy. With crack and heroin, you always run out and have to buy more. At least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Wanna buy a lens, little boy? :deal
Like there is a light at the end of the tunnel mate ???????

[wxwax]

'mungoose, one other thought: how long have you had your current camera? How long did you think you'd use if?

What I'm getting at is that IMHO you'll be ready to upgrade in far less than 2 years. More like 6-12 months I reckon. So if you think you'll eventually end up buying something like the 20D or D70, might as well do it now, and save yourself a few hundred dollars.

[gus]

'mungoose, one other thought: how long have you had your current camera? How long did you think you'd use if?

What I'm getting at is that IMHO you'll be ready to upgrade in far less than 2 years. More like 6-12 months I reckon. So if you think you'll eventually end up buying something like the 20D or D70, might as well do it now, and save yourself a few hundred dollars.
Waxstrips ..i have had the little c5050 for about 14 months. There is about $1K diff between the D70 & 20D...no question the D20 is a hell of a camera but i think the D70 would be a good next step for me.

It would be easy to wait til the 20D to drop in price but thats the old story aint it ? As i mentioned earlier i can remember paying nearly $300 for 2 megs of ram once.

Im leaning towards the D70 & buying good glass & then moving up in 2 years or so to the next Nikon...its not as if they are going to drop out of the race leaving a monopoly for canon.

I will want a min of 200mm & macro straight up to keep going. So there is over $1K right off the bat.

Oh my god...anyone got any novacaine ?

[fish]

There is about $1K diff between the D70 & 20D

maybe in ozzie play money. in real USD, it's a $400 diff or 29%.

[gus]

maybe in ozzie play money. in real USD, it's a $400 diff or 29%.
Spose there has to be an up to counter the weather.

http://cameras.listings.ebay.com.au/Digital-Cameras-Lenses_Digital-SLR_W0QQfromZR4QQsacategoryZ43453QQsocmdZListingIt emList

[pathfinder]

Waxstrips ..i have had the little c5050 for about 14 months. There is about $1K diff between the D70 & 20D...no question the D20 is a hell of a camera but i think the D70 would be a good next step for me.

It would be easy to wait til the 20D to drop in price but thats the old story aint it ? As i mentioned earlier i can remember paying nearly $300 for 2 megs of ram once.

Im leaning towards the D70 & buying good glass & then moving up in 2 years or so to the next Nikon...its not as if they are going to drop out of the race leaving a monopoly for canon.

I will want a min of 200mm & macro straight up to keep going. So there is over $1K right off the bat.

Oh my god...anyone got any novacaine ?


'gus - One thought for you to consider.... You have created numerous excellent images with your Oly with a special excellence in your macros. An alternative I suggested earlier is a Nikon 8800. I have given serious thought about one of these for myself. 10X Optical zoom 35-350 equivalent . No sensor dust problems in your lunchbox case on your tuck seat. 8 (count'em 8 ) Mgpixels. Lovely Nikon color. Vibration reduction in the body at all focal lengths. 1/3000th sec shutter speed ( but I almost never use faster than 1/1000 myself) F2.6-F4.9 Infra red remote control Electronic viewfinder like the Sony 828 and the Minolta A2.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikoncp8800/

$999.99 USD at B&H

It will slake your thirst for a better camera while you wait for the new generation of DSLRs to appear this spring. And in all our discussion of Nikon/Canon we did not even mention Olympus has two DSLRs on the market also and they take the 4/3ds system lenses.
Something to consider....

Your Ebay page lists an Olympus E300 Evolt digital camera which is their new DSLR for AU$1176.00

[wxwax]

Oooh, a late curveball from the Pathfinder. :evil Excellent, muddy the once pristine waters! Just when I thought the 'goose had his head on straight. Kava, anyone?

[gus]

'gus - One thought for you to consider.... You have created numerous excellent images with your Oly with a special excellence in your macros. An alternative I suggested earlier is a Nikon 8800. I have given serious thought about one of these for myself. 10X Optical zoom 35-350 equivalent . No sensor dust problems in your lunchbox case on your tuck seat. 8 (count'em 8 ) Mgpixels. Lovely Nikon color. Vibration reduction in the body at all focal lengths. 1/3000th sec shutter speed ( but I almost never use faster than 1/1000 myself) F2.6-F4.9 Infra red remote control Electronic viewfinder like the Sony 828 and the Minolta A2.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikoncp8800/

$999.99 USD at B&H

It will slake your thirst for a better camera while you wait for the new generation of DSLRs to appear this spring. And in all our discussion of Nikon/Canon we did not even mention Olympus has two DSLRs on the market also and they take the 4/3ds system lenses.
Something to consider....

Your Ebay page lists an Olympus E300 Evolt digital camera which is there new DSLR for AU$1176.00I would bet any money that you lot are all PM'ing each other ...

PF : "whooah waxy...let him get to the end & close to a decision & i'll launch the Coolpix 8800 at him when he's looking away"

------

They are here on Ebay for $1K PF.The 8 MP bit...i was always under the impression that the glass was more important ?

I assume that having 3 more MP than i currently have...i could crop my macro's more ?



.

[GREAPER]

I dont know a lot about it, but what about Minolta and their in body image stabilization.

Tasty.

The only reason I would hold back from that would be less glass available.

[pathfinder]

I would bet any money that you lot are all PM'ing each other ...

PF : "whooah waxy...let him get to the end & close to a decision & i'll launch the Coolpix 8800 at him when he's looking away"

------

They are here on Ebay for $1K PF.The 8 MP bit...i was always under the impression that the glass was more important ?

I assume that having 3 more MP than i currently have...i could crop my macro's more ?



.

I just thought that this was a way of temporizing without committing to a lens sysyem yet. The 8800 should be very good at macros, it IS a 10X 35-350mm zoom. Vibration reduction. Not too shabby, and compact and no dust on your sensor. The lens is made by nikon and gets good marks.

I'm not really trying to muddy the waters - just offering alternatives
:dunno

[Sam]

Humungus,


You have recieved some really solid info mate. I would like to renterate one point, look at the systems again. I think you would be happy with ether the Nikon or the Canon, but once you choose the brand, you will be tied to that brand with glass and other assesories, and yes you will buy more glass faster than you think! My co-worker just bought a D70. One of his reasons for the D70 over the 20D was price. His initial photos look great. Now just a week or two after getting it he is looking at a $1300 lens. lol

Once you jump into the DSLR pond your gona find out how really deep it is!

Now for a new curve ball! This year or next I will be stepping up to a 20D. It's not first on my list, but if you think you may have an interest in the Canon brand, I would entertain talking to you about my flawless Rebel at a very fair price. No I am not putting it on E-Bay or am I in any rush to sell it. Actually my first thought was to keep it as a back up. But hey I can think about it.


Sam

[Andy]

.

The only reason I would hold back from that would be less glass available.

loads of konica minolta glass available (http://kmpi.konicaminolta.us/eprise/main/kmpi/Content/cam/cam_Attachments/Maxxum_Lenses)

this is fun, innit?

[GREAPER]

How about a DSLR that keeps its own sensor clean. Full frame 8MP

And its the Ruler Of The Wastelands Brand.

Here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=getItemDetail&Q=&sku=358250&is=REG&si=feat#goto_itemInfo)

[Andy]

How about a DSLR that keeps its own sensor clean. Full frame 8MP

And its the Ruler Of The Wastelands Brand.

Here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=getItemDetail&Q=&sku=358250&is=REG&si=feat#goto_itemInfo)

yeah, but now you're talking about limited lens selection, and, a 2x crop factor.

[GREAPER]

I didn't see the multiplier. It's kinda decieving calling it a full frame sensor isnt it.

You are definatly right about glass selection. Non existant at B n H

I do wish my Nikon would clean itself
:D

[cmr164]

Yeah ..assuming canon is still in front with 'bang for buck' in that part of the curve.
There are historic reasons why Canon has an advantage. A couple of decades back, Canon pissed off their entire customer bas by making a major incompatible change in their mounts from 'FD' to 'EF'. At the same time Nikon swore to never do that to their customers and gained a lot of loyalty. As time went by Canon's non-optical lens technology, image stabilization and way faster auto-focus started chewing into Nikon. As time has gone by, Canon's choice has shown more and more long term benefit to the point where Nikon which used to dominate events like the Olympics are virtually invisible. Both companies have oustanding optics and I will agree that the D70 is a better camera than the DRebel/D300. I'll even state that I strongly was unhappy with the D300 when I borrowed it for a day. But you are buying a system and from your photos I think Canon is my clear recommendation. I might recommend a used D10 instead of the Rebel.

EVEN THOUGH THE D70 IS A BETTER CAMERA I THINK THE D300 IS THE PROPER CHOICE BETWEEN THE TWO.




Why do so many deal crack/heroin when they could just deal lens's legally...its a much stronger addiction from what i can see.
Ask jimf why he calls me a crack dealer :rofl

[gus]

Humungus,


You have recieved some really solid info mate. I would like to renterate one point, look at the systems again. I think you would be happy with ether the Nikon or the Canon, but once you choose the brand, you will be tied to that brand with glass and other assesories, and yes you will buy more glass faster than you think! My co-worker just bought a D70. One of his reasons for the D70 over the 20D was price. His initial photos look great. Now just a week or two after getting it he is looking at a $1300 lens. lol

Once you jump into the DSLR pond your gona find out how really deep it is!

Now for a new curve ball! This year or next I will be stepping up to a 20D. It's not first on my list, but if you think you may have an interest in the Canon brand, I would entertain talking to you about my flawless Rebel at a very fair price. No I am not putting it on E-Bay or am I in any rush to sell it. Actually my first thought was to keep it as a back up. But hey I can think about it.


SamThanks for the kind offer sam however i am really going to buy a new camera. Its going to be soon but i just dont know which way to go. Those pro-sumers with the 10x lens are a powerfull calling....

Yours

confused.

[gus]

Thanks heaps for everyones input...I am off to read about the 300 greaps (any ideas why this 3/4 system was developed?). I really want to have some good glass but cant help looking at the 10x 8800 of nikons that PF mentioned. I dont head out to shoot something in particular but whatever i stumble across. It would just be so handy & cost effective not to worry about glass & just hit a button to go from macro to 10x...i just dont know if the quality will still be there for me in 12 months & then i have to go through the whole thing of sleeping in the spare room again.

I am just going to have to get hold of one of these 8800's & try it for my self.From what ive seen it has some really amazing colour ability.

Thanks again for every response..

[gus]

How about a DSLR that keeps its own sensor clean. Full frame 8MP

And its the Ruler Of The Wastelands Brand.

Here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=getItemDetail&Q=&sku=358250&is=REG&si=feat#goto_itemInfo)
Greap how common are these Zuiko brand lens's ? I have looked at them on the net but it never gives a feel for whats actually avail in real life.

Thats an impressive little camera just looking at its specs !

[pathfinder]

Greap how common are these Zuiko brand lens's ? I have looked at them on the net but it never gives a feel for whats actually avail in real life.

Thats an impressive little camera just looking at its specs !


Olympus has been in business since before WWII I think 'gus. It is a well respected company. When I was a student and could not begin to dream about owning a Nikon Nikkormat I aquired an OM-1 and several Zuiko lenses for it. I still own an f1.2 50mm - nice lens. I used it for years, until Olympus abandoned it. Otherwise I still might be using it.

Olympus knows how to make good optical products, but they never have quite achieved the respect of the pros like Nikon and Cannon. They always seem to have just a little quirkiness - Their 1/2 frame Pen F SLR was loved by a lot of people. Most OM-1s were probably bought by advanced amatuers and some pros, who paid for their own equipment, I suspect.
Olympus announced the 4/3s system in conjunction with Kodak and another Japanese firm. Sigma has said it will build 4/3 series lenses. But the idea has not really caught on in the market place. I can't think of anyone on dgrin who posts images with the Olympus 4/3s system cameras. I have colleagues who used the Olympus e-10 and e-20 non-interchangeable SLRs( NO EVF - Optical viewers) and they make excellent images.

The 4/3s sensor is square and slightly smaller than an APS sized sensor if my memory serves. And since pixel density size is ultimately a function of sensor size it is hard to see how they will compete in the market place with Canon and Nikon unless they are significantly cheaper, and right now they are not. Olympus also makes microscopes and other medical otical imaging equipment and will be in business whether they succeed in the digital SLR business or not. It is not their mainline business.

Another consideration is that their cameras will probably depreciate faster than more popular cameras in the market place. Images on Olympus website from the 4/3s system cameras are very impressive though.

[GREAPER]

Adorama comes up with 45 items when searching for Zuiko lens

I have looked around a bit and have real trouble finding glass for this body. Tamron and sigma dont seem to make an olympus mount for their lenses. I think glass selection should rule this body out for you. It would for me.

I hope that it at least gets the other manufacturers to look for a anti dust technology.

I would say Canon, Nikon, and Minolta are the main ones I would look at for a DSLR

The comments about Canon dominating the market may be true in sports photography but I dont know if it's true across the board. I dont know any sports shooters but I know a few pro nature photographers and they alll (the ones I know) shoot with Nikons.

All that really needs to be said is that I think you will be happy with either brand. Know one has mentioned it yet, but one of the big concerns is how it FEELS to you. Does the body fit comfotable in your hand. Are the controls in places that are comfortable for you to use. Does it feel good when you hold it.

I shot Nikon film bodies before I swithed to digital. When I picked up my D100 it felt right. The size was right, the weight felt good, the controls were VERY similar to the bodies I was use to. I was sold the minute I picked it up and was getting decent results the day i brought it home.

[gus]

Adorama comes up with 45 items when searching for Zuiko lens

I have looked around a bit and have real trouble finding glass for this body. Tamron and sigma dont seem to make an olympus mount for their lenses. I think glass selection should rule this body out for you. It would for me.

I hope that it at least gets the other manufacturers to look for a anti dust technology.

I would say Canon, Nikon, and Minolta are the main ones I would look at for a DSLR

The comments about Canon dominating the market may be true in sports photography but I dont know if it's true across the board. I dont know any sports shooters but I know a few pro nature photographers and they alll (the ones I know) shoot with Nikons.

All that really needs to be said is that I think you will be happy with either brand. Know one has mentioned it yet, but one of the big concerns is how it FEELS to you. Does the body fit comfotable in your hand. Are the controls in places that are comfortable for you to use. Does it feel good when you hold it.

I shot Nikon film bodies before I swithed to digital. When I picked up my D100 it felt right. The size was right, the weight felt good, the controls were VERY similar to the bodies I was use to. I was sold the minute I picked it up and was getting decent results the day i brought it home.
I have noticed that the nature style photographers here mostly use nikons also.

I am really going to have trouble with switching lens's & getting crap in there. Im not known for gentle hands thats for sure. The nikon 8800 absolutely suits me perfectly with its versitility & colour from what ive seen ...just worried that i will grow out of it too fast & want a DSLR (read...*lust for higher quality glass*) & as waxy keeps pointing out rightly so..."thats a whole new teapot of eels" re fun v's money.

Sorry if im sounding confused here...should just go & buy the flamin' thing & be done with it !!

[GREAPER]

I just checked out the specs on the 8800 and it looks like a fine camera to me. I was thinking about getting a camera like that for a general walk around camera when I didn't feel like carrying my ussual 40 pounds of junk.

You gotta go with yer gut. I find when I have the money to get somethin like this I have to do enough research to decide what feels like the right thing, then I just do it.

[lynnesite]

I have noticed that the nature style photographers here mostly use nikons also.

I am really going to have trouble with switching lens's & getting crap in there. Im not known for gentle hands thats for sure. The nikon 8800 absolutely suits me perfectly with its versitility & colour from what ive seen ...just worried that i will grow out of it too fast & want a DSLR (read...*lust for higher quality glass*) & as waxy keeps pointing out rightly so..."thats a whole new teapot of eels" re fun v's money.

Sorry if im sounding confused here...should just go & buy the flamin' thing & be done with it !!

someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 8800 still not a dSLR? Speaking as someone whose last camera was a Nikon 5700 and managed to shoot with it commercially, I can't even shoot with it recreationally now, just drives me crazy compared to the dSLR features I've gotten used to with the 10D. Main objections

shutter lag time
The 10D shutter engages when I depress it, not a second later
Storage rate to the card
Low light performance
low frame rate in sports or multiple shot mode, the need to anticipate action and shoot before it "happened"
slow zoom compared to the lenses I use on the 10D
Tiny dynamic range, easy to blow out the highlights.

My Nikon takes lovely macros and landscapes, the optics are fine. If that's most of what you shoot, you might be satisfied with the improved model.

I started out in Olympus-land, film first then '99 on their digitals including the 520D, 2100 UZ (a killer 10x 2.1) and the then-pocket-sized 700UZ.

Lynne
also addicted to L glass
with the factory refurbed 5700 prolly for sale

[Andy]

ya'll had no trouble getting me to spend about $8000 on a new computer system and 30" display. and i seem to remember you in there, 'gus, fanning the flames and cheering the boyz and girlz on :lol3

'gus - get a dslr! canon or nikon, but get one. food for thought: you like to shoot "dark" subject matter and i imagine that a fair amt of this would be in non-well lit situations... and canon kick's nikon's booty at the higher isos, 800, 1600, and 3200. but, stay away from the rebel, go for a used 10d or get me or someone stateside to buy you a 20d and ship it to oz. (i think you left it here on your last visit, that's what i would say...)

anyhow, my .02p

[jimf]

I didn't see the multiplier. It's kinda decieving calling it a full frame sensor isnt it.

I would also wait on Olympus stuff until I saw noise evaluations. The E-1 was horrible in that respect, particularly given its price, and likewise there are a lot of very noisy 8MP sensors. I'd be skeptical until I saw otherwise.

I wandered over to dpreview to see if they had noise shots up yet but they don't.

[wxwax]

I agree with Andy and Lynnesite. If you're gonna buy a new camera, might as well make the jump to dSLR. 'goosetavus, I think you'll fall in love with the low light performance and shutter response. Great points. But have your eye$ wide open. :evil

[ian408]

Like there is a light at the end of the tunnel mate ???????
'Gus, let me tell you that the light at the end of the tunnel of long glass...is
bright and equally expensive :D

Regarding the D70 vs. Rebel. Either body is a fine camera. What matters is
the glass. Take a look at what you think you might want to buy (lens and
other kit), measure the cost, quality, etc.. So far, camera bodies are a dime
a dozen--well, they change so frequently they might as well be. But the
lenses, that's the thing you'll have longest.

Something else to consider is the ergonomics of the camera. Do you find the
buttons in the right place? Does it fit your hand? Is it too heavy?

There are a lot of people making great pictures with the rebel. Same with
the D70. Good luck with your search!

ian

[fish]

Humungus, I have a prediction:

You will buy a new camera, but it won't be a dSLR. You'll shoot some fantastic photos with it for about 60 days, and be ready to buy a dSLR again.

Don't waste your money. Just get a dSLR and start whining about glass, not chip-holders.

Struth, mate...and you know it.

[gus]

'Gus, let me tell you that the light at the end of the tunnel of long glass...is
bright and equally expensive :D

Regarding the D70 vs. Rebel. Either body is a fine camera. What matters is
the glass. Take a look at what you think you might want to buy (lens and
other kit), measure the cost, quality, etc.. So far, camera bodies are a dime
a dozen--well, they change so frequently they might as well be. But the
lenses, that's the thing you'll have longest.

Something else to consider is the ergonomics of the camera. Do you find the
buttons in the right place? Does it fit your hand? Is it too heavy?

There are a lot of people making great pictures with the rebel. Same with
the D70. Good luck with your search!

ian
Thanks ian...im doing some serious math as we speak (both shoes are off)

Mate i was shooting the bikes today & i am sorry to report that 'stage two' of 'Wanting better camera gear 101' kicked in.

There seems to be an equal amount of nikon & canon glass about. There is a 'Trading Post' type local magazine where a lot of pro's peddle their stuff so i will buy it & look at a good 2nd hand body as andy suggested.

[ian408]

There is a 'Trading Post' type local magazine where a lot of pro's peddle their stuff so i will buy it & look at a good 2nd hand body as andy suggested.
This is an excellent idea. If you do that, why not just skip straight to the
10d/d70 or wait a bit and see if you find something better. Meanwhile,
take your bad self to a camera store and get an idea of how it fits and
what you want.

ian

[wxwax]

a good 2nd hand body as andy suggested.
:nod

[Andy]

:nod

nobody was advising me to go get a 2nd hand apple or display http://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gifhttp://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gifhttp://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gif

[GREAPER]

Perhaps when a guy changes camera bodies 4 times in one year it leaves folks with the impression that he can afford to buy what he wants....

:D

[pathfinder]

nobody was advising me to go get a 2nd hand apple or display http://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gifhttp://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gifhttp://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gif


There is a very good market for used G4s. But I am not aware of a big market in used G5s yet - where would the owner of a Dual G5 go to move up? Maybe a SUN Unix workstation.... But that is a big step up I bet :D

[ian408]

There is a very good market for used G4s. But I am not aware of a big market in used G5s yet - where would the owner of a Dual G5 go to move up? Maybe a SUN Unix workstation.... But that is a big step up I bet :D
Oh no. That would be a HUGE step backward (sorry fish).

Ian

[pathfinder]

Oh no. That would be a HUGE step backward (sorry fish).

Ian
Is this Silicon Valley humor perhaps??

[ian408]

Is this Silicon Valley humor perhaps??
It is kinda funny. But no.

Ian

[wxwax]

nobody was advising me to go get a 2nd hand apple or display http://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gifhttp://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gifhttp://williams.smugmug.com/photos/11389300-Ti.gif
:rofl :rofl

[gus]

Humungus, I have a prediction:

You will buy a new camera, but it won't be a dSLR. You'll shoot some fantastic photos with it for about 60 days, and be ready to buy a dSLR again.

Don't waste your money. Just get a dSLR and start whining about glass, not chip-holders.

Struth, mate...and you know it.
I know it bud.

[DoctorIt]

Perhaps when a guy changes camera bodies 4 times in one year it leaves folks with the impression that he can afford to buy what he wants....

:Dno kiddin' eh? I've had socks longer than Andy had his 20D! :lol3


'gus, enough advice, fingers crossed for you that the numbers crunch in your favor and a dslr finds its way to to you :thumb

[jimf]

I'll even state that I strongly was unhappy with the D300 when I borrowed it for a day. But you are buying a system and from your photos I think Canon is my clear recommendation. I might recommend a used D10 instead of the Rebel.

If you're looking at a 10D, I would categorically say to get a 20D instead. In fact, if you're looking at a 300D but could swing a 20D, I would say a 20D instead. It is a markedly better camera.

I have been pretty happy with my 300D -- very nice images, all-around good performer. Stay away from full auto mode (in fact, I suggest staying away from all its high-automation modes) and you'll do fine. Charles had the most trouble with the green-box mode, I think if he'd left it in P mode he would have been much happier. He was accustomed to much higher end bodies that do a better job at full automation, whereas I come from manual-only and am happy doing a lot of the work. (I am shocked at how much I like AF though.)

EVEN THOUGH THE D70 IS A BETTER CAMERA I THINK THE D300 IS THE PROPER CHOICE BETWEEN THE TWO.

I would have bought a D70 had it been available. I like my Canon glass a lot, but I like Nikon glass too. And the D70 corrects the one glaring deficiency in the 300D, namely slow write speed. At ~5sec per RAW frame you can easily find yourself waiting, and waiting, and waiting. If you're shooting sports you must shoot JPEG.

The 10D suffers from the same write speed problem as the 300D and that makes it a poor buy IMO, although if you could pick up a used one at a 300D price it would be worth jumping on.

Speaking of the D70, the one thing that has bugged me about shots I've seen taken with it is some blooming. Look at this one:

http://photo.gouldhome.com/gallery/266257/1/12380917

(Not my pic, so you have to go to the site.)

Look at the edges of the skyscrapers in the full resolution image. I'm not sure what caused that -- could be lens, could be JPEG artifact, but I don't like it. Here's a similar high-contrast hard-edge image with the 300D:

http://www.frostbytes.com/gallery-albums/scenery/CRW_2046.sized.jpg

(full res: http://www.frostbytes.com/gallery-albums/scenery/CRW_2046.jpg)

Notice the totally sharp edges. I can get nastiness if I push it harder, eg:

http://www.frostbytes.com/gallery-albums/scenery/CRW_6682.sized.jpg

(full res: http://www.frostbytes.com/gallery-albums/scenery/CRW_6682.jpg)

(Unfortunately the gallery software I use really screwed the color on both of these, but comparing these against the originals I see the same detail.) The fine detail of the branches is lost, introducing some funny artifacts especially in the highest contrast horizon line, and there is some banding in the clouds, but overall it's noticably less badness.

I don't know if the issue is the D70's sensor, the lens he used (I used a 28-70 L for the first shot, 70-200 L for the second), or the conversion software (he used Nikon's tool, I used C1) but whatever -- he's got a great shot there that is spoiled to a degree by something.

Ask jimf why he calls me a crack dealer :rofl

The very worst kind. Gonna be hard to tempt me now that I have a pretty full range of lenses though. But a 20D is calling my name.

[Kalamata]

I can pick up a new Rebel with 18-55mm lens for about $1200 0z clams or a D70 with 18-70mm lens for $1600 0z clams.



$1600 is alright, here in WA just before xmas it was $2100 bundled with a 300mm tamron. A $200 cash back also applied
Ed

[Andy]

no kiddin' eh? I've had socks longer than Andy had his 20D! :lol3


'gus, enough advice, fingers crossed for you that the numbers crunch in your favor and a dslr finds its way to to you :thumb

i think i've had kleenex that lasted longer than my 20d :lol3

[Digital ND]

Last summer I traded my Nikon F100 in on a D70 and, though I had a similar Tamron lens, got the bundled Nikon lens, convinced that at twice the price of my old Tamron 28-105mm it would be a great improvement. I was greatly disappointed and eventually returned it.
Firstly, I quickly encountered problems with the auto focus being... out of focus. I realize that this is not supposed to be a problem with the lens, but when I switched it out with my Tamron, this problem disappeared (as well as discovering that the Tamron was actually much faster). Perhaps it was a faulty lens, but I wasn't going to exchange it and try another one.
Secondly, the lens hood actually blocks the onboard flash (I know those flashes are pretty hokey, but still...) leaving a dark crescent on the bottom of the image when it is facing outward. If you put it on facing inward, it overlaps the telephoto ring making it difficult to zoom. In short, the lens hood is poorly designed and spent most it's time in my camera bag.
On the plus side, the macro was better than my Tamron and the 67mm glass should be pretty good. Beware that it is also one of Nikon's new G-mount lenses that don't have an aperture ring, making them lighter and cheaper... This is Nikon's new bottom end hardware and feels like it.

The D70 has been a good camera to work with and Nikon's NEF lossless compression has consistently impressed me. My old Coolpix 880 shot 3.2MP lossless at 9MB/image and the D70 shoots 6MP lossless at 9MB/i9mage.

As a side note, the compression means that at the end of your 'digital roll' you will actually get more photos than indicated at the start. It's like your 12 exp. film roll squeezing off 14 or 15.

[DoctorIt]

Secondly, the lens hood actually blocks the onboard flash (I know those flashes are pretty hokey, but still...) leaving a dark crescent on the bottom of the image when it is facing outward. If you put it on facing inward, it overlaps the telephoto ring making it difficult to zoom. In short, the lens hood is poorly designed and spent most it's time in my camera bag.
Why would you use a lens hood with a flash? Seems counter intuitive :dunno

I always considered lens hoods an accessory, as in, something to be used once in a while for the right situation.

[Mongrel]

Why would you use a lens hood with a flash? Seems counter intuitive :dunno

I always considered lens hoods an accessory, as in, something to be used once in a while for the right situation.
I use hoods on all my lenses *almost* all the time. I use them as 'bump' insurance. You know for those times when you accidentally smack the end of your lens on the coffee table or the fence or whatever else is hanging out waiting to jump up and bite you. I normally use no filters (not even a 1A or UV) on my lenses so I like having that extra inch or so on the end of the lens.

Not to mention, you never know when the Evil Dr. Flare will arise.

[trippy64]

Secondly, the lens hood actually blocks the onboard flash (I know those flashes are pretty hokey, but still...) leaving a dark crescent on the bottom of the image when it is facing outward. If you put it on facing inward, it overlaps the telephoto ring making it difficult to zoom. In short, the lens hood is poorly designed and spent most it's time in my camera bag.
On the plus side, the macro was better than my Tamron and the 67mm glass should be pretty good. Beware that it is also one of Nikon's new G-mount lenses that don't have an aperture ring, making them lighter and cheaper... This is Nikon's new bottom end hardware and feels like it.

The D70 has been a good camera to work with and Nikon's NEF lossless compression has consistently impressed me. My old Coolpix 880 shot 3.2MP lossless at 9MB/image and the D70 shoots 6MP lossless at 9MB/i9mage.

I have the same issue withthe hood and the flash. So when is the right time to use a hood? I too was advised of the bump factor, and took it to heart. I have tried the hood from a Tamron and it seemed to help, but again, when do you hood and when do you not. Be kind, I'm a beginner. I love my D70, and like my other Nikons as well.

[cmr164]

I have the same issue withthe hood and the flash. So when is the right time to use a hood? I too was advised of the bump factor, and took it to heart. I have tried the hood from a Tamron and it seemed to help, but again, when do you hood and when do you not. Be kind, I'm a beginner. I love my D70, and like my other Nikons as well.
The problem is not the hood, it is the popup flashes being too close to the lens barrel. Either use a separate flash or if you must use the popup remove the hood during those sessions. (or don't use WA lenses)

[swilner]

Wow !! some heavy advice gents. I do like the nikon...it has a very fast shutter (8000) which i could use (but hey..i dont even know how the rebels 4000 speed shutter can cope as i can only do 1000 atm.) Battery life is also a big thing to me andy.

I will certainly sit & digest all your replies.

Any one wish to wade into a laymans description re cmos and ccd sensors. Which is prefered & why ? I looked it up & it quickly got over my head.

Humungus: The good news is that you are faced with a no-lose decision. I bought the D70 because I am a lifetime Nikon user with a fair bit invested in the glass. It was not, however, a no-brainer. At the end of the day either camera will serve you well. One note on battery life. My D70 can go on forever on a single battery charge. I have a spare battery but have never had to pop it in while shooting. The batter can last for several days of shooting even hundreds of frames/day.

Good luck and remember, there is no bad choice here.

Steve

[pathfinder]

I have the same issue withthe hood and the flash. So when is the right time to use a hood? I too was advised of the bump factor, and took it to heart. I have tried the hood from a Tamron and it seemed to help, but again, when do you hood and when do you not. Be kind, I'm a beginner. I love my D70, and like my other Nikons as well.


The shadow from the onboard flash is not unique to Nikon. You'll see it with the Canon 300D, or the 20D as well. Like cmr said, the onboard flash is low and close to the optical axis of the camera and hence lens hoods, particularly for wide angles, tend to create large curved shadows in the lower part of the frame.

Leaving the lens hood off is one poor solution; a better solution is a hot shoe mounted flash, or even better, a flash on an auxilliary hand like the wedding photogs use. This gets the flash up and away from the lens axis, and also makes the flash look more like normal illumination.

Lens hoods help prevent lens flare from lights in the environment.

[fish]

The shadow from the onboard flash is not unique to Nikon. You'll see it with the Canon 300D, or the 20D as well.
The 20D is an improvement over the 10D, in this respect, in that the flash rises higher off the body. Still doesn't clear the 24-70/2.8L without hood, tho.

The internal flash is a wonderfully convenient fill device. It's somewhat disappointing as a primary light source tho.

[pathfinder]

The 20D is an improvement over the 10D, in this respect, in that the flash rises higher off the body. Still doesn't clear the 24-70/2.8L without hood, tho.

The internal flash is a wonderfully convenient fill device. It's somewhat disappointing as a primary light source tho.

None of the onboard flashes are good as a primary light scource. You are correct, Fish, that some onboard flashes are worse than others regarding shadowing. Trippy has an N60 Nikon film camera and it will do the same thing for the same reason. And yes, the 20D is a little better than the 10D, because the 20D flash stands up a little higher above the optical axis.

[gus]

Humungus: The good news is that you are faced with a no-lose decision. I bought the D70 because I am a lifetime Nikon user with a fair bit invested in the glass. It was not, however, a no-brainer. At the end of the day either camera will serve you well. One note on battery life. My D70 can go on forever on a single battery charge. I have a spare battery but have never had to pop it in while shooting. The batter can last for several days of shooting even hundreds of frames/day.

Good luck and remember, there is no bad choice here.

Steve
Yep...the more i read about D70 v's 20D i see that the canon isnt the sole answer. That D70 is impressive.

thats just a personal view btw fish...

[Nee7x7]

Yep...the more i read about D70 v's 20D i see that the canon isnt the sole answer. That D70 is impressive.

thats just a personal view btw fish...I've been trying out both cameras (the 20D and D70) and I keep going back and forth like a ping-pong ball! Nikon has a great rebate deal going on that amounts to $200 off the camera with the kit lens! There are also rebates through the end of this month (February) on accessories, like most of the lenses and electronic flashes that go with the camera...which means I could buy the camera, a 70 - 300 zoom, and a flash for less than cost of the 20D alone! It's killing me...because...

In testing the two cameras, I much prefer the look of the Canon photos! Every photo I took with the Nikon needed some post processing (mainly due to color balance). Every photo with the Canon was great right out of the box! Nikon's automatic WB (at least on the one I tested) was not very good...most of the pics came out with a strong cyan cast. Maybe things were not set correctly...I don't know! I asked the store salesman to set it on auto because I couldn't figure it out. There are an awful lot of confusing configurations to learn with the Nikon (pushing in a button while rotating one command wheel did one thing, pushing the same button and rotating the other wheel did another...the camera is rather confusing unless you're a real video game guru!).

However, the Nikon had a more "solid" feel to it, although the Nikon body is plastic and the Canon has a metal base! The Canon kit lens seems a little cheap, but allows closer up focusing than the kit lens on the Nikon. The Nikon was lighter and felt more natural in my hands, but the viewfinder on the Canon was larger and brighter (easier on my poor tired eyes!) and I did like the auto focusing with it. The Nikon has a better metering system...and the see-saw goes on and on (it's getting late and my mind is getting a little foggy!). If I think of anything else I've come across, I'll add it to this thread.

Bottom line is...Nikon is the better bargain, Canon takes the seemingly better out of the camera photo. Nikon images seem more scientifically realistic, Canon's seem more artistically realized (does that make sense?). Canon images are more saturated and seem to have more "depth" to them (I suspect the Digic image processor adds a blur layer and a sharpened layer to get this look because I've simulated it with my own photos)...Nikon's are probably truer to the actual scene. Canon makes people look like they've had a great makeover...Nikon shows every little blemish and wrinkle, every pore and nose hair...and not necessarily in the best light. But... I was able to adjust the Nikon photos in editing to where the looked very nice (to my eyes!). (I took my own CF cards to the camera store so I could compare photos at home).

Does this help you in your decision making? I'm thinking if I can hold out until after the PMA show, maybe something else will come along to help me break out of this deadlock! Arrrrrrggggghhhh!!!!

Oh well...hope you're staying high and dry!
~Nee

[luckyrwe]

I'd judge the lenses first, then the bodies. The lenses make the picture. Don't be swayed by a rebate necessarily, if you have the camera system for 5 years and are uhappy with it, they few dollars will not make a difference.

You may want to rent one camera for the day and see how you like it.

[gus]

Good write up....buuut ive read the exact opposite all over the net re the photo quality. Hey....thats the net. :1drink

I think its a bit like 'GM v's Ford' myself. No-one is 100% correct. Are you able to post a couple of the shots you took ?

There are little things to take into account in this decision like the D70 body being polycarbonate....it will take a drop well over a metal body. Dropping cameras is my specialty & its things like this that rate for me over a small tech spec that fish can dig up on google :lust god love him.

Other things need to be looked at also...in about 3 years, both these cameras will be on Ebay for about $200-$300 BUT the nice quality lens that we had the good sense of mind to buy with either camera will maybe be slightly dearer & still fit the new model (well...maybe the nikon anyway)


There is a lot more but im over it now & cranking the coin machine like crazy to buy one before i get to yosemite so i am familiar with one of them. I will still pick up some nice lenses in the US.

[pathfinder]

Good write up....buuut ive read the exact opposite all over the net re the photo quality. Hey....thats the net. :1drink

I think its a bit like 'GM v's Ford' myself. No-one is 100% correct. Are you able to post a couple of the shots you took ?

There are little things to take into account in this decision like the D70 body being polycarbonate....it will take a drop well over a metal body. Dropping cameras is my specialty & its things like this that rate for me over a small tech spec that fish can dig up on google :lust god love him.

Other things need to be looked at also...in about 3 years, both these cameras will be on Ebay for about $200-$300 BUT the nice quality lens that we had the good sense of mind to buy with either camera will maybe be slightly dearer & still fit the new model (well...maybe the nikon anyway)


There is a lot more but im over it now & cranking the coin machine like crazy to buy one before i get to yosemite so i am familiar with one of them. I will still pick up some nice lenses in the US.


I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians :thumb Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses?? I was a Nikonian years ago - does that still count?? :D :D
I miss seeing your daily walkabout pictures with your Oly that got dropped. :uhoh

[Andy]

.....but the nice quality lens that we had the good sense of mind to buy with either camera will maybe be slightly dearer & still fit the new model (well...maybe the nikon anyway)

hmm there are lenses going back years that work on all the canon bodies, every one of them, from the 300d to the 1Ds Mark II. the only currently-for-sale lenses that are "special" to particular bodies are the ef-s lenses, they work on the 300d and the 20d.

[pathfinder]

hmm there are lenses going back years that work on all the canon bodies, every one of them, from the 300d to the 1Ds Mark II. the only currently-for-sale lenses that are "special" to particular bodies are the ef-s lenses, they work on the 300d and the 20d.

I've read about adapters for FD lenses that allow them to mount on the EOS mount and be used as a manual lens also. A few shooters are using the Zeiss( I think) Distagon - a very wide angle lens manually on a Canon 1Ds. Very wide angle lenses do not really need a lot of focusing due to their extreme depth of field. Have you read bout this Andy?

[ian408]

I think its a bit like 'GM v's Ford' myself. No-one is 100% correct. Are you able to post a couple of the shots you took ?
I own a GM pickup. When I asked why I should buy the GM over the Chevy (same
exact thing), the dealer said "because GM makes the bolts tighter" or something
like that.

Same holds for the Nikon/Canon choice. In the end, it's a brand preference more
than it is a technical difference (where's the flamesuit smilie?).

Ian

[fish]

I've got a dollar that says there's a Nikon in Humungus' future. :deal


(dkapp the DB need not apply :1drink)

[pathfinder]

I've got a dollar that says there's a Nikon in Humungus' future. :deal


(dkapp the DB need not apply :1drink)

I already said that here, Fish
http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=56254&postcount=80

"I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses??"

[fish]

I already said that here, Fish
http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=56254&postcount=80

"I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses??"

So? :dunno

[Nee7x7]

*Please don't expect something like what you'd see on Dpreview or some other review site! My comparisions are totally unscientific...I didn't try to use the same focal lengths, settings or exposures...just the standard lens with each camera and auto exposures. In a way, maybe it's more "honest" because in real life that is what we'll be doing, LOL!

Canon 20D with onboard flash (no post processing except to resize and USM)

http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280504-L.jpg

Canon again...no flash...auto WB

http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280507-L.jpg

Nikon with no flash, auto WB (but processed for color balance)

http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280508-L.jpg

Nikon D70 with onboard flash (no post processing except to resize and USM)

http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280510-L.jpg

Same photo, with processing to make it look more like Canon pics ;)

http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280511-L.jpg

Close up comparisons:

Canon-

http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280505-L.jpg

Nikon- (with post processing to tone down the cyan cast with auto WB)

http://nee.smugmug.com/photos/15280509-L.jpg

I think Nikon photos are probably more representational of the actual scene (the color cast may have been due to color temperature...it was getting on toward dusk...and this photo was taken without the flash, though the auto WB could have done a better job!). Canon photos are enhanced by the Digic processing...more saturated, sharp, but with a *softer* look to them (possibly from built in noise suppression?).

I think it's more personal preference as far as what looks good to your own eyes. I'm still at am impasse...actually because of our current available money situation, I'm leaning toward Nikon because I can get more equipment to begin with, and I'm fairly happy with the post processed images. But I still prefer the *look* of the Canon out of the camera images, so the main issue for me is that Nikon photos will probably need an extra color balance and color saturation step, plus some added contrast until I learn how to set those parameters in the camera myself (Unfortunately, I'm not the quickest learner, and learning all the Nikon dials and buttons is a bit intimidating for me).

But I'm gonna try and hold off until near the end of the month to see if anything new crops up on the horizon that may affect my decision.

One quirky note about Nikon... their lenses zoom *backwards* to most other cameras. To zoom in, you rotate the lens counter clockwise instead of clockwise. If you're left handed, this is probably a real boon. If not, it takes a little getting used to!

One caution I've come across about Canon...there has been a problem reported by some owners in regard to error msgs and the camera freezing up and needing to be sent in for repair. On the users ratings at Dpreview and some online camera stores, I noticed that most D70 owners had no complaints and loved their cameras. And I noticed that most 20D owners loved their cameras, but that many of them had some complaints (mostly about the above mentioned problem)! Just an aside I thought was kind of interesting...

I think it goes to prove...there ain't no such thing as a "perfect" camera...:doh

Cheers!
~Nee

[gus]

hmm there are lenses going back years that work on all the canon bodies, every one of them, from the 300d to the 1Ds Mark II. the only currently-for-sale lenses that are "special" to particular bodies are the ef-s lenses, they work on the 300d and the 20d.and here i was thinking...i wont get anyone with that stinky bait :1drinki get the canonaphile

[gus]

Tks for taking the time to do that nee :thumb

[gus]

I hear a D70 purchase coming up by you 'gus?? Live long and prosper in the land of Nikonians :thumb Will you still talk to us fellows who use the white lenses?? I was a Nikonian years ago - does that still count?? :D :D
I miss seeing your daily walkabout pictures with your Oly that got dropped. :uhoh
Jury is still out but 'bang for buck' the nikon has it so far.

Like i said ...both these cameras will be antiques in 3 years so it does not matter which i choose.

I never realised how boring work is without a camera with me

[DoctorIt]

Jury is still out but 'bang for buck' the nikon has it so far.

Like i said ...both these cameras will be antiques in 3 years so it does not matter which i choose.

I never realised how boring work is without a camera with mehaven't andy and waxman beaten the lens thing into you yet? sure they'll both be antiques, but the lenses won't....

I recently took the "color" challenge myself. Shot two exact things with my friend's D70, and with my 300D using our simplest lenses (50mm 1.8 me, 1.4 nikkor, him). So I know the test isn't perfect, but on my screen, i liked the color tones of mine better. Maybe I'm conditioned at this point. who knows.

[gus]

haven't andy and waxman beaten the lens thing into you yet? sure they'll both be antiques, but the lenses won't....

.
Thats exactly my point ...

[DoctorIt]

Thats exactly my point ...so you like the nikkor lenses better? (i've been absentee on your debate, sorry)

[gus]

so you like the nikkor lenses better? (i've been absentee on your debate, sorry)No (well maybe)... as a learner i couldnt run each camera to the point where i can produce a quality difference. But the lens is money for quality that will be still going strong when digital camera X is sitting in the filing cabnet beside my 1983 AE-1 & unteen old fungusy lenses.

[fish]

No (well maybe)... as a learner i couldnt run each camera to the point where i can produce a quality difference. But the lens is money for quality that will be still going strong when digital camera X is sitting in the filing cabnet beside my 1983 AE-1 & unteen old fungusy lenses.
You know they tighten the screws tighter on white lenses. :deal

[gus]

You know they tighten the screws tighter on white lenses. :deal
I was reading somewhere in a nikon forum that they wont buy the grey 70-200 VR f2.8 nikkor as they dont want to be mistaken for canon shooters :1drink

some people 'eh ?:rofl

[fish]

I was reading somewhere in a nikon forum that they wont buy the grey 70-200 VR f2.8 nikkor as they dont want to be mistaken for canon shooters :1drink

some people 'eh ?:rofl

People are stupid. Yer not stupid, are ya gus?

[Nee7x7]

Tks for taking the time to do that nee :thumbI'm going through the same struggle myself, so it wasn't exactly an unselfish act for me to test out both cameras, :rolleyes

Have you decided on anything yet? (You can PM me if you don't want to make your decision public...I won't tell! For the rest of you Dgrin-ers, too bad! :bad )

Anyhow, I hope you'll share your thoughts with me...I'm really stuck on the fence as to which way to go, and feeling the time pressure, too! I want to be able to have it all figured out before well our upcoming Yosemite trip, so I can have enough time to learn whatever camera I end up with!

Thanks,
~Nee :)

[ian408]

I'm going through the same struggle myself, so it wasn't exactly an unselfish act for me to test out both cameras, :rolleyes

Have you decided on anything yet? (You can PM me if you don't want to make your decision public...I won't tell! For the rest of you Dgrin-ers, too bad! :bad )

Anyhow, I hope you'll share your thoughts with me...I'm really stuck on the fence as to which way to go, and feeling the time pressure, too! I want to be able to have it all figured out before well our upcoming Yosemite trip, so I can have enough time to learn whatever camera I end up with!

Thanks,
~Nee :)
Regardless of what you get, you will not have made a mistake.

I've suggested before that what feels good and intuitive in your hand
is a good measure. As are the optics quality. Like others, the glass will
long outlive the body (unless you go the FS route (Canon)).

Go back to the store, close your eyes and try and take picky's. Imagine
the movement your hands make on the controls. How does the camera feel
in your hands?

In the end, you can even flip a coin. But you need to decide :D

Ian

[gus]

People are stupid. Yer not stupid, are ya gus?As thick as two short planks mate...but i could talk a dingo out of his lunch.

[Andy]

As thick as two short planks mate...but i could talk a dingo out of his lunch.

i heard lunch somewhere.

i really did.

[gubbs]

'gus when I chose, one of things that influenced me was the availabilty of used Canon equiptment. (Some might argue that as negative point :D)

If you take the flea market here as an example: in the last 2 pages 11 canon items / 1 nikon item have come up. If your on a budget this can really help.
Having said that I bought my body used, but my lenses have all been new so far...I'm too impatient!

[gus]

No doubt at all mate. I may swing canon yet....im looking as we speak.

[ian408]

No doubt at all mate. I may swing canon yet....im looking as we speak.
Evening 'gus.
You know you want it. We know you want it. Now get it :deal

[Andy]

No doubt at all mate. I may swing canon yet....im looking as we speak.

'gus, choose whichever, but choose. that said, you like to shoot dark and i've been saying this all along, nobody but nobody disputes the fact that at the higher isos, 1600 and even 3200, canon is superior.

just something to think about and make yer head explode :humungus

[gus]

'gus, choose whichever, but choose. that said, you like to shoot dark and i've been saying this all along, nobody but nobody disputes the fact that at the higher isos, 1600 and even 3200, canon is superior.

just something to think about and make yer head explode :humungusMate im having too much fun here....i will choose the day i drop the ready on the counter & say...'give me one of those.'

[GREAPER]

'gus when I chose, one of things that influenced me was the availabilty of used Canon equiptment. (Some might argue that as negative point :D)

If you take the flea market here as an example: in the last 2 pages 11 canon items / 1 nikon item have come up. If your on a budget this can really help.
Having said that I bought my body used, but my lenses have all been new so far...I'm too impatient!

See Us Nikon guys (n gals) do not need to switch all our equipment weekly
:D

I haven't bought a lense in a year and haven't taken one out of service either. (I have 4)