Oklahoma City

[Angelo]

Judging by the lack of response to my inquiry about OKC (in an earlier thread) one would assume no one has ever visited. I'm here to say that's a mistake. What a charming town this is.
Here's a teaser to more images I'll post when I return to LA. Today's a travel day.

One from the Oklahoma City National Memorial:

[Maestro]

Poignant and solemn. You caught the feeling well in the photo.

[Antonio Correia]

It looks like modern sculpture...
I personaly don't like it at all...
I think sometimes the so called artists - because they are welknown and recognized which is essencial to be an artist - allow themselves to teese people with whatever comes to their minds ...

I could give you an example of a Portuguese sculptor known all over the world who proposes certain kind of things that I think he is teesing people.
http://www.pedrocabritareis.com/


May be I am a stupid ! and I do not understand "the artists"
Here, it looks like chairs...
What does it pretend to represent ?
Yes I saw it is most respectable memorial.
But this ??? for a memorial ? Why ? Where is the symbolism ?
Stupid Antonio ...

[Red J]

It's of the Oklahoma City Memorial, for the persons who perished in the largest act of domestic terrorism in the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Memorial

Each chair represents a life which was lost. The small chairs are for the children which died in the building's nursery.

[Antonio Correia]

It's of the Oklahoma City Memorial, for the persons who perished in the largest act of domestic terrorism in the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Memorial

Each chair represents a life which was lost. The small chairs are for the children which died in the building's nursery.
I got it now.
But ... a master piece needs explanation ?
Or is it the lack of ideias that conduce to such proposals ?
Saúde :thumb

[allensphoto]

Judging by the lack of response to my inquiry about OKC (in an earlier thread) one would assume no one has ever visited. I'm here to say that's a mistake. What a charming town this is.
Here's a teaser to more images I'll post when I return to LA. Today's a travel day.

One from the Oklahoma City National Memorial:

i am terrible sorry i missed your post i would have commented sooner .. what a great pic ...i don't want to hijack your thread but i will post a link to my site ...i was up till 2:30am this morning finishing it up ... hope you come back to okc and well hook up.. i'll show you the backstreet neat stuff...
the chairs are moving...

http://AllensPhoto.smugmug.com/gallery/1689168/1/82954099

[allensphoto]

May be I am a stupid ! and I do not understand "the artists"
Here, it looks like chairs...
What does it pretend to represent ?
Yes I saw it is most respectable memorial.
But this ??? for a memorial ? Why ? Where is the symbolism ?
Stupid Antonio ...

Oklahoma City National Memorial - Chairs at Night
The chairs are constructed of a solid seat and back, mounted atop a glass base, which is inscribed with a victim's name. By day, the chairs seem to float above their translucent bases, just as memories of loved ones seem to float past at any given moment. By night, lighted glass bases accentuate the names of those we miss. The power of 168 shining lights in the darkness is there before us, filling us with hope and inspiration, suggesting that good will prevail in the wake of such tragedy. also they represent the people sprits because they were just going about there daily routine when the horrific act occured..(many were in their seats..at their desk)
if you have never come to see the memorial i will give you a guided tour .. and if a person has a heart beat it will change your life...

http://AllensPhoto.smugmug.com/gallery/1689168/1/82954099 OKC Bombing Memerial Gallery

[Antonio Correia]

Oklahoma City National Memorial - Chairs at Night
The chairs are constructed of a solid seat and back, mounted atop a glass base, which is inscribed with a victim's name. By day, the chairs seem to float above their translucent bases, just as memories of loved ones seem to float past at any given moment. By night, lighted glass bases accentuate the names of those we miss. The power of 168 shining lights in the darkness is there before us, filling us with hope and inspiration, suggesting that good will prevail in the wake of such tragedy. also they represent the people sprits because they were just going about there daily routine when the horrific act occured..(many were in their seats..at their desk)
if you have never come to see the memorial i will give you a guided tour .. and if a person has a heart beat it will change your life...
I never doubt - ever - about the feelings and simbolism involved.
As a matter of fact I have been an Architect for 28 years and I perfectly understand emotions involved in such a matter.

I have seen the photos somewhere a while ago, and at night - from a link posted here - and yes it is nice.
But during the day ...
I do not want to patronize anyone but about feelings I can tell you I have been in Dahau and it freezes my spine.
Of course it is a different situation.

But my point is: an object of art is only so when it is socialy recognized and in these days many works are called art and I do not understand them.
Most people don't.
May be that's the point: its only designed to a few ...

As I told before it looks the artist is teasing the public. Pulling their legs.
The artist present a work and - because he is welkown and considered in the millieu - the critics accept and say it is good.


Let me tell you an extreme example which actually happened.
In the Town Hall where I work the power is from the communists.
Poor them. Once - the elected polititians - have choosen an artist for a statue with on thing in mind: the artist must be communist. :huh

I must add that the poor were without any notion of aesthetic principles or whatsoever and they are - the ones involved were - very low garduated. I mean little schoolarity.

Sometimes I like to go and fetch examples from the extremes. These allow us to understand better the middle. The so called Democracy. The best system ever invented by man. So far.

Well enought.
What do you think about my statement ?

Saúde e obrigado by the comment.

:thumb

[allensphoto]

i understand about the artist and and the playing of the people that goes on .. but i don' think these are considered or looked at as an art form. they are a symbol of remembrance.. however i may be wrong. people may consider it art...i don't think Oklahomans do..i do see your point of extremes

[Dani]

http://images15.fotki.com/v262/photos/7/70144/3050223/panos-vi.jpg

[Angelo]

Poignant and solemn. You caught the feeling well in the photo.

thank you very much.

I will post more ASAP.

[Angelo]

It looks like modern sculpture...
I personaly don't like it at all...
I think sometimes the so called artists - because they are welknown and recognized which is essencial to be an artist - allow themselves to teese people with whatever comes to their minds ...

I could give you an example of a Portuguese scuptor know all over the world who proposes certain kind of things that I think he is teesing people.
http://www.pedrocabritareis.com/


May be I am a stupid ! and I do not understand "the artists"
Here, it looks like chairs...
What does it pretend to represent ?
Yes I saw it is most respectable memorial.
But this ??? for a memorial ? Why ? Where is the symbolism ?
Stupid Antonio ...

Antonio:

Thank you for looking and commenting. Of course, I didn't design the memorial, I just photographed it.

[Angelo]

i am terrible sorry i missed your post i would have commented sooner .. what a great pic ...i don't want to hijack your thread but i will post a link to my site ...i was up till 2:30am this morning finishing it up ... hope you come back to okc and well hook up.. i'll show you the backstreet neat stuff...
the chairs are moving...

http://AllensPhoto.smugmug.com/gallery/1689168/1/82954099

Thanks Allen. Any of your "backstreet" stuff to see? I'll have my OKC gallery up shortly.

[Angelo]

another view:

[Angelo]

one more:

[Angelo]

/

http://angelo.smugmug.com/photos/83379975-L.jpg
.
http://angelo.smugmug.com/photos/83380163-L.jpg
.

[Antonio Correia]

I must admit that it looks quite impressive and mainly at night with the lights on...

[Antonio Correia]

and I must admite also that under this perspective the work of art gives an very interesting impresition and transmites the ideia.

So, under these circunstances I mantain my previous words regarding the artists who propose whatever and get the ideia afterwards, and I recognize that this is very good work and - you don't care about a Portugueses thinks I understand - I consider it is very nice and a work of art.

The chairs are so symbolic that they remember those stones which used to appear in the garves. (don't know the English for that)

I am sorry you built that monument for the reason of it's cause. Do I make myself clear ?
I mean:
I am sorry you built this monument for that reason.
You, like myself, we would like the monument did not exist because there was no cause, no victims.

Thank for showing such a work of art.
It is nice to show pieces this valuable.
:thumb

[allensphoto]

Thanks Allen. Any of your "backstreet" stuff to see? I'll have my OKC gallery up shortly.

i really don't, we have not got there to shoot in a while...usually when i go i have to much of an agenda...looking forward to your gallery.. i was rushed when i took the pix for mine .. my wife was having a hard time being back at the site:cry ... she was there shortly after the bomb went off . she was helping the red cross and clean up efforts...so it's tough for her to go,but see did good . we were there on the 10yr .anniversity..
you pix are great .. my ideas of composure is an area i need a lot of work in..

[Harryb]

Marvelous shots Angelo. The shot really hits home for me. I used to be vice-president of a local that represented SSA field office workers in NYC. SSA had an office in the Murrah building and 16 of its 50 workers were killed that day. I had met one of the victims at a convention two years prior to the bombing.

[Angelo]

thanks again to everyone for looking and commenting.

I have other shots in my OKC gallery on my site and hope you'll take a look there also.

I have many more shots to process and post (damn digital memory cards... I'm going back to 36 exposure film!!!) :rofl

[Seefutlung]

I understand Antonio and his remarks pertaining to artists ... and I understand the remarks that the chairs are not art, but a memorial.

If I had a loved one killed in that tragedy ... I think I would perfer something different than a chair to be remembered by.

A memorial which requires reading instructions to fully understand and appreciate, in my book, doesn't convey the full power of what it is trying to memorialize. Be that as it may, it is still interesting and encapsulates a sad event.

As to the 1st photo, one of the strengths of the photo is the abstract quality of the chairs/art placed in an open space. If you cropped down from the top, you could eliminate the background which brings in references to the location ... thereby hightening the abstraction ... going B&W would also increase the abstraction.

[saurora]

Very nice work, Angelo. I especially like the abstract quality of the first shot. I'm sure it would convert to B&W nicely, but the colors of the metal in the chairs are great as is. I like the way you composed the 2 shots in post # 16, both are very moving. I imagine the chairs look amazing at dusk, like they appear in #15. They must emit an eery glow as the light dims.

[THE TOUCH]

Very nice Angelo!

Your images bring across the power and emotion of the scene! Love these -

http://angelo.smugmug.com/photos/83379975-s.jpg

http://angelo.smugmug.com/photos/83380163-s.jpg

[THE TOUCH]

Let me try that again! I love these -

http://angelo.smugmug.com/photos/83379975-S.jpg

http://angelo.smugmug.com/photos/83380163-S.jpg

[Angelo]

See, Saurora

I prefer the original for various reasons but here's an attempt at your recommendations. Thanks for looking and commenting.

[Seefutlung]

mmmhhh... yeah not as abstract as I would have hoped. But ... hey ... thanks for trying ... win a few and lose a few. I appreciate the effort ... and I like the shot both in color and B&W (I thought the B&W would have a bit more impact).

[Seefutlung]

Hope you don't mind .. but this is how I sorta see it ...
13994

[saurora]

Wow, that's interesting! In B&W it becomes a much more solemn statement to me...almost too solemn! Thanks for trying, Angelo and Gary!:D

[Antonio Correia]

What stroke me in the work (I mean the sculpture not the photograph) was the repetion of the simbolic chair/lapide and the relationship with environment and scale.
(I introduced here a photo of a tumular stone because this is what I mean by lapide)

I this is not a good photo under that point of view. Too rude ?
I don't agree with what I can remember - correct me if I am wronge - Gary said somewhere: he would like the memory of a dead cherished person to be remembered as a chair...

This it's the ideia I got and remember.
I agree that I may be mistaken (most probably I am) with Gary' s opinion. Language, English, me as Portuguese, clumsy writer and understanding of me etc. etc...

I think the quality lies much in the scale and repetion .
Many interpretations can be given to a work of art.
I can see all the chairs as so, as tumular stones, as candels during the night, as marks of memory...

OK ?

[Justiceiro]

I'm going to have to go with Antonio on this one.

It's always difficult to criticize a memorial becuase people take it as criticizing those who are to be memorialized. People intimately involved also tend not to understand, I think, that the feelings they have at a site may be aroused more by their intimate connection to the place than by the Art of the memorial.

And yes, it is Art, and ought to be judged by artistic standards.

This reticence on the part of potential critics sometimes allows charlatans or simply bad architects to construct things that really ought not be constructed.

We are facing the same thing near me right now at Liberty State PArk in New Jersey. Take a look at this monstrosity. (http://www.state.nj.us/nj911memorial/winner.html)


I feel the same way about the OKC memorial. It's histrionic. It's blunt and awkward. Plainly speaking, its ugly, and it looks like it was designed by a committee. Apparently, that committee failed to eliminate a single idea brought before it, and mashed them all together.

A good memorial lets a place speak for itself. I think that when you feel what you feel at this place, it is the place speaking, and not the monument. A good monument calls attention to this, and then steps out of the way to let your reflect. This is why the best monuments are simple.

[Antonio Correia]

[quote=Justiceiro...A good memorial lets a place speak for itself. I think that when you feel what you feel at this place, it is the place speaking, and not the monument. A good monument calls attention to this, and then steps out of the way to let your reflect...[/quote]

I agree with you.
I have seen the monstruosity and think that it is a very poor ideia indeed.
Regards.
:thumb

[Stustaff]

I agree with you.
I have seen the monstruosity and think that it is a very poor ideia indeed.
Regards.
:thumb

Aint art crazy!

I think thats really nice!

[mercphoto]

My sister and brother-in-law live in OK City, having moved there recently. On my last trip we went to the memorial. I'll agree that memorials and art can be very strange objects at times. Sometimes I think artists get too abstract or too fancy or too whatever, as if they are simply showing off how bizarre they can get, rather than focus at the task at hand, but maybe that is the practical engineer in me talking.

I did find the chairs easy symbolism to understand and it struck me rather quickly. These symbolize people who are no longer here, with smaller chairs for children. Chairs that will not be sat in any longer by their owner. Perhaps chairs were a suitable symbol to use, seeing as how the site was an office where people sit and work by day. That is how I saw it, at least. Part of the memorial also uses the foundation of the building, or what is left of it. Parts of the foundation are still standing, their exposed ripped edges showing the trauma of destruction, which is powerful. The reflecting pool and the two anchoring arches I did not understand until I read the plaque however.

[Justiceiro]

Aint art crazy!

I think thats really nice!

It doesn't look too bad in the drawings, but at the actual site there is a huge 2 story dirt mound that all of this will be built upon. Worse than that, it is built at the best spot in the park to view the WTC site. It used to be a quiet, unadorned, and peaceful little campo or flat green. Now you can't see anyhting because this thing is going to be in the way, and instead of an expanse of green before the river, you can watch the skyline only from about 15 feet of sidewalk.

I ma reminded of what Carlos V said when he viewed the catholic nave built within the old Alhambra,

""You have built what you or others might have built anywhere, but you have destroyed something unique in the world.""

[Seefutlung]

... Sometimes I think artists get too abstract or too fancy or too whatever, as if they are simply showing off how bizarre they can get, rather than focus at the task at hand, but maybe that is the practical engineer in me talking.

I did find the chairs easy symbolism to understand and it struck me rather quickly. These symbolize people who are no longer here, with smaller chairs for children. Chairs that will not be sat in any longer by their owner. Perhaps chairs were a suitable symbol to use, seeing as how the site was an office where people sit and work by day. That is how I saw it, at least. Part of the memorial also uses the foundation of the building, or what is left of it. Parts of the foundation are still standing, their exposed ripped edges showing the trauma of destruction, which is powerful. The reflecting pool and the two anchoring arches I did not understand until I read the plaque however.

One of the most plain-speaking, straight-forward, no-inerpetation required and strongest memorial I have seen in the world ... is the Iwo Jima flag rising memorial.

Maybe I am not artistic enough ... but why not have people instead of chairs? Why must we have symbols which require interpetation when the real thing is much more powerful ... for me my heart would beat quicker ... or ... completely stop if I saw bronze children perpetually at play ... frozen in time ... a plaque identifying each person at the base ... instead of chairs.

Look at the Iwo Jima memorial ... it immediately says war, courage, honor, country, duty, Marines, ... four of the six flag raisers died at Iwo, what would that memorial say if there were chairs depicted instead of our honored dead? Okay... that is an extreme example ... but I hope you get my intent ... and for those that died in a terrorist attack in OK City ... they also deserve a memorial, in my opinion, more meaningful than chairs.

Gary

[allensphoto]

but maybe that is the practical engineer in me talking.

I did find the chairs easy symbolism to understand and it struck me rather quickly. These symbolize people who are no longer here, with smaller chairs for children. Chairs that will not be sat in any longer by their owner. Perhaps chairs were a suitable symbol to use, seeing as how the site was an office where people sit and work by day. That is how I saw it, at least. Part of the memorial also uses the foundation of the building, or what is left of it. Parts of the foundation are still standing, their exposed ripped edges showing the trauma of destruction, which is powerful. The reflecting pool and the two anchoring arches I did not understand until I read the plaque however.

that is exactily what i wanted to say .. i think this is what the designer had in mind as well.. and the people closest to the tragity Family and suvivors chose this design as there memorial.. not for us to question..

[Justiceiro]

and the people closest to the tragity Family and suvivors chose this design as there memorial.. not for us to question..

I am going to have to strenuously disagree with that statement. Public space belongs to the public, and if there are any interest groups that can claim priority in deciding its disposition, it has to be based on an organic community connection, rather than on feelings. I think we are oversesitive about people's feelings in this country.

I'm not sure how "public" the space in OKC is, or how central to public use- but I know the spaces that are the prime bones of contention in NYC are highly public and subject to much public use. The "9/11 families" have frankly gotten out of control; most of them aren't even residents of the lower west side- yet they expect to be defered to by the residents of that neighborhood when decisions are made that critically effect the neighborhood.

Likewise with the LSP memorial in New Jersey. I don't care if someone in Long Island likes the design or not, it's in my "front yard" so I ought to be consulted, if anyone is.



Monuments shouldn't be built by committee regardless, even if the commitee is made up of victims. Art by committee is crap art. Always. that's my problem with this monument. Its hodge-podge. I

[allensphoto]

I am going to have to strenuously disagree with that statement. Public space belongs to the public, and if there are any interest groups that can claim priority in deciding its disposition, it has to be based on an organic community connection, rather than on feelings. I think we are oversesitive about people's feelings in this country.

I'm not sure how "public" the space in OKC is, or how central to public use- but I know the spaces that are the prime bones of contention in NYC are highly public and subject to much public use. The "9/11 families" have frankly gotten out of control; most of them aren't even residents of the lower west side- yet they expect to be defered to by the residents of that neighborhood when decisions are made that critically effect the neighborhood.

Likewise with the LSP memorial in New Jersey. I don't care if someone in Long Island likes the design or not, it's in my "front yard" so I ought to be consulted, if anyone is.



Monuments shouldn't be built by committee regardless, even if the commitee is made up of victims. Art by committee is crap art. Always. that's my problem with this monument. Its hodge-podge. I

:scratch :bigbs not evan worth starting...

[Justiceiro]

:scratch :bigbs not evan worth starting...

Then you shouldn't have started it.


not for us to question..

[Seefutlung]

... Art by committee is crap art. Always. that's my problem with this monument. Its hodge-podge. I

A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Gary

[Antonio Correia]

I... Public space belongs to the public, and if there are any interest groups that can claim priority in deciding its disposition, it has to be based on an organic community connection, rather than on feelings.
...
Monuments shouldn't be built by committee regardless, even if the commitee is made up of victims. Art by committee is crap art...

:clap:agree. That's what democracy is all about !

[Angelo]

wow, after a month's rest this thread has resurfaced and not a word about my photos by the new posters. :scratch

Hi guys. Remember me? My thread; my photos. :wxwax

:D

[Antonio Correia]

wow, after a month's rest this thread has resurfaced and not a word about my photos by the new posters. :scratch

Hi guys. Remember me? My thread; my photos. :wxwax

:D

Angelo,
Yes you are right. I' m sorry. :):
It's the enthusiasm you know !...
have a nice week end. :):
:thumb

[allensphoto]

Sorry about the hijacked thread .. it hard not responding to less than accurate info.

[Justiceiro]

Sorry about the hijacked thread .. it hard not responding to less than accurate info.

Facts are accurate or innacurate. Opinions can only be agreed or disagreed with. What we are discussing is a difference of opinion in regards to the suitability of certaint modes of expression of public art. As we are all engaged in an aesthetic pursuit here (photography), I think its an appropriate forum to have such a discussion in, hopefully without name calling.

Angelo, I think you can count yourself lucky that your photographs have created such responses. It means your photos are speaking to things that people find important.

[allensphoto]

I will leave and no longer stir the pot... because my emotions are to involved to discuss art..because i feel most oklahomans much like myself would be offended at someone calling the OKC Memorial site . just a piece of public art...


Angelo you know how i feel about your pix .. i most of the same ones on my site .. offers still there if you get to OK. look me up ...

[Justiceiro]

I appreciate the fact that you are emotionally involved, allensphoto. But I would never call a piece of public art, of this type, "just" public art. Public art is, in a real sense, the highest expression of a culture and expresses its deepest concerns, goals and emotional losses.

I'm emotionally involved in public art issues as well, such as the 9/11 memorial in Liberty State Park near my home. That's why I think its important that its porperly done.