Help SmugMug make a decision about giving more customer info to Pros [Sitemap]

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 12:52 AM

EDIT: June 2008: We now provide all the physical address info :thumb

http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/2008/06/27/new-shopping-cart-june-27-2008/

We're in the midst of testing some important new Pro features :wink. You've given such great feedback, we're pretty sure we know where most Pros stand on most of the features.

When we've had questions in the past, dgrin debates have been a big help in getting things right.

The problem: Some Pros would love more contact info about who's buying their stuff. We'd love to be responsive to them. We just want to provide it in an ethically and legally sound way.

Currently, we share only the email address and the customer's first and last name with our pros. The buyer often comes to the Pro's SmugMug site because they know the Pro and it only makes sense that the Pro can contact them if there is a problem with the order, etc.

Consumers, though, are rightfully sensitive about sharing their personal information online. Some of our Pro sales come from people who aren't aware they're buying a Pro print.

To meet the needs of our Pros without ignoring the fears of our consumers, we think we should add an option to the shopping cart.

Two options we're considering:

1. Add the following text to the shopping cart at checkout:

"SmugMug provides your name and email to the photographer (Andy Williams (http://williams.smugmug.com/)) whose photos you're buying. Our terms with photographers forbid them from selling your contact info or using it for spam (link to definition of spam)."

The customer would then see two check boxes with the left one on by default.

(0) Just give them name and email ( ) Phone and address is okay (but not my credit card!)

Pros: You always get some contact information, even if it's just email address.

Cons: You may lose some sales from people who don't want to share their contact information.

2. Add this text to the shopping cart at checkout:

"Is it okay if we provide the photographer whose photos you're buying (Andy Williams (http://williams.smugmug.com/)) with your contact info? They are frequently helpful if there's a problem with the order."

(0) Yes, but not my credit card! ( ) Yes, but only my email. ( ) No.

Pros: You won't lose sales since customers feel they have control over their privacy.

Cons: You may get sales without any contact information.

Feel free to suggest wording changes or other options.

Thanks!
Baldy

northphoto

Jul-21-2006, 06:11 AM

I am not sure how this is going to help a pro any more?? We are given the email address and name of the customer with each order placed, if we needed to get in touch with a customer we can just email them? I think most customers would only allow there email as a contact anyway.

If SmugMug realy wants to help the PRO photographers, they should add different pkgs. for example (1-8x10, 2-5x7's, and 4-wallets) and other pkgs for a single price! this way we can offer a discounted pkg price, and help boost sales. Also, adding Photos on a baseball card or Sports Illustrated cover would be great! also selling digital images on a CD would be a great option, and one that has little overhead for smugmug since there is no printing involved.

Keep in mind, I am a sports photographer, and these are options that would really help me out, I am sure they will help most out. I have been with Smugmug since day 1, and intend on being with them for the long haul, but as my business grows, I need to be able to compeat with others that offer these items.

Paul North
NORTH Photo

Thanks!
Baldy

NikonGirl

Jul-21-2006, 07:11 AM

I have a pro account, so I feel like I have the right to give my opinion. But I am definitely not a pro. So my comments are more from a consumer point of view.

As a consumer, I would never check the box that allows you to give the photographer my phone and home address. But then I have a shredder at home and I shred everything that comes in the mail that is personal – including my home address.

Anyway, given the choice, I think most people would never agree to giving out their home address. First of all, why does the photographer need it? With my email address, the photographer can contact me and then I can choose what information to give the photographer.

By the way, does Smugmug validate the email address of the buyer?

Also, what if I am buying from several photographers. Will the answers to the questions be applicable to all photographers? Or does the consumer have to answer those questions for every photographer.

And finally as a pro – if I should ever be lucky enough to ever sell a photo, I don’t want the home address of my customer. By the way, how is the home address delivered to the photographer? Via email? Will it be encrypted? Is it only given to the photographer upon request, or would the photographer get all the home addresses regardless of whether they asked for it.

flyingdutchie

Jul-21-2006, 07:14 AM

Andy

Jul-21-2006, 07:19 AM

Yolanda, thanks for responding!

what if I am buying from several photographers. Will the answers to the questions be applicable to all photographers? Or does the consumer have to answer those questions for every photographer.
If you were buying from multiple pros the info button you checked would apply for all pros you are ordering from.

And finally as a pro – if I should ever be lucky enough to ever sell a photo, I don’t want the home address of my customer. By the way, how is the home address delivered to the photographer? Via email? Will it be encrypted? Is it only given to the photographer upon request, or would the photographer get all the home addresses regardless of whether they asked for it.
If checked "yes, give my address and phone" then the pro would get it in an email upon completion of the buyer's order.

Thanks again, it's great input!

Andy

Jul-21-2006, 07:20 AM

I agree with northphoto. I think a valid e-mail is enough so that we can contact the customer if need be.

I assume this new feature has been requested by at significant amount of Smugmug's Pro customers. What was their reason to want this feature?
Anton (and Paul):

Thanks both of you for replying. Yes, there are many pros who've been requesting for a long time that we provide more information than we currently do.

Thanks for taking the time to let us know your thoughts on this!

Cindy

Jul-21-2006, 07:58 AM

I for one would really appriciate recieving their e-mail address, first & last name + phone number (address's would be nice to have but it's not a great need).

Now for the wording... there's got to be a much better more business/customer friendly way to word this... let me think on it awhile. I worked all night last night so my mind is way to foggy to think at the moment. Maybe it's just because I'm tired but as it reads either way right now is a major turn off I think. I like the idea of giving the customer an option in the cart but not the way it currently reads above. hmmmmmm....

bigwebguy

Jul-21-2006, 07:59 AM

Yolanda, thanks for responding!

If you were buying from multiple pros the info button you checked would apply for all pros you are ordering from.

If checked "yes, give my address and phone" then the pro would get it in an email upon completion of the buyer's order.

Thanks again, it's great input!a suggestion, as sending an email to the pro w/customers info is not the most secure. How about a screen where the pro can see the customer information of folks that bought photos. Maybe even have a notification on there that shows who recently bought something and have an option to shoot them a thank you email.

i think the only way to do this would be to default the customers response to 'provide no information'. Anything other than that opens up the unobservant customer to be put on a pro's mailing list or get other unwanted emails. Not saying that any of OUR pro's would do that, just a hypothetical.

DavidTO

Jul-21-2006, 08:33 AM

a suggestion, as sending an email to the pro w/customers info is not the most secure. How about a screen where the pro can see the customer information of folks that bought photos. Maybe even have a notification on there that shows who recently bought something and have an option to shoot them a thank you email.

i think the only way to do this would be to default the customers response to 'provide no information'. Anything other than that opens up the unobservant customer to be put on a pro's mailing list or get other unwanted emails. Not saying that any of OUR pro's would do that, just a hypothetical.

Not a pro, but if I were, I would think that an order history page like BWG is suggesting would be much more helpful. You could even offer different views/sorts and possibly tie it in to stats to make it a really powerful tool.

BrianLowe

Jul-21-2006, 08:37 AM

a suggestion, as sending an email to the pro w/customers info is not the most secure. How about a screen where the pro can see the customer information of folks that bought photos. Maybe even have a notification on there that shows who recently bought something and have an option to shoot them a thank you email.

i think the only way to do this would be to default the customers response to 'provide no information'. Anything other than that opens up the unobservant customer to be put on a pro's mailing list or get other unwanted emails. Not saying that any of OUR pro's would do that, just a hypothetical.
I am for the above, a separate screen within Smugmug where the customer info is centralized in my SM pro account.

Brian

johng

Jul-21-2006, 09:16 AM

Well,

I suppose it's nice. But, to be honest, if a customer is not going to answer an email I send them they probably don't want to talk to me.

I realize of all the requested features I've been seeing this is the easiest to implement but from what I've seen in the feature request thread this certainly didn't seem like a hot priority. Packages, coupons, the ever present custom watermarking all seem like much more desired options. I'm all for quick hitters with good ROI, but I'd rather see your IT folks working on the features giving me more options that help my business. The impact to my profitablity of having a phone number as well is pretty small compared to the other features.

That's my honest two cents!

Mike Lane

Jul-21-2006, 09:33 AM

Baldy, do you guys have any statistics about how many customers balk when faced with the knowledge that their information is shared with the photographer? My gut feeling is that not so many people would cancel a purchase because they knew that the photographer would have their email address. But that's not based on any real statistical data or anything. So based on my gut feeling option 1 would be better in my opinion. But if there is data suggesting that a large (largish) percentage of customers would balk if they are not given the option of hiding their info from the photographer then obviously my choice would be option 2.

:ear

Ben

Jul-21-2006, 09:41 AM

Just as clarification, this is not something that is impeding or replacing the development of other features. This is not something that is soaking up weeks of time in engineering, etc. This is simply something we want input on before implementing.

So please, please keep the feature requests to the feature request thread.

As for Mike's question, we don't have those statistics. That is one of the reasons we want to open it up to debate, if we knew it was 10% (unlikely)... it would be a no brainer to give them options to opt out. If we knew it was .0001% (also probably unlikely), it would be a no brainer to go the other route. :D

Its not an easy question to answer, but we have had some very explosive and fiery threads in dpreview and (I think) here about the subject. We are trying to get the bottom of how important it is to pros, and what sort of solution they see, while trying to stay ethical towards those buying the prints.

mercphoto

Jul-21-2006, 09:48 AM

I have an Exposure Manager account that all my new racing photos go to. From that account I get the customer's name, email, and mailing address. They need to do that because some of the products are self-fulfill. Therefore I need to know where to ship something to. I do not get CC information, however.

All my clients come to me because they are aware of me in the first place. They all believe they are actually buying from me, not from Smugmug or Exposure Manager. They do not have an issue sharing their address with me simply because they are not aware of the middle man in the first place.

But personally, knowing my clients mailing address, while nice, is not that big a deal. There are other more important things for me than this. I really think this particular "pro feature" is being over-blown.

Bodley

Jul-21-2006, 10:08 AM

I am totally against giving the customer the option to hide the basic information (name-email) from the pro. Also think since the customers are buying the photos from a Pro's photo site then logic would dictate that the Pro would get their order information (name, email, address) without asking the customer. After all without the Pro there would not be a transaction. I cannot see where the Pro would or should ever get Credit Card information or other sensitive information.

Steve Cavigliano

Jul-21-2006, 10:12 AM

FWIW, as a mortgage broker I run into quite a bit of difference regarding privacy issues. Some folks guard their privacy religiously. Others could care less. Probably a 40/60 split. I also run into a significant number of people who do not wish to furnish contact information. Or who provide erroneous contact information. At my Open Houses I see about the same percentage of folks who decline to sign my book or who give me wrong contact info.

Many realtors and lenders do marketing campaigns where they capture email addys and/or phone numbers when prospective clients respond. They can then use this information to continue contacting these prospects. Basically, trying to drum up business. I know you said no SPAM. But, I really see no reason for a Pro to contact a buyer other than to sell more prints.

I can also see how customers may feel that by providing this information, they will probably be contacted to buy more prints in the future. Maybe if you could come up with a better reason than "sometimes it helps if the Pro can contact them about their order". I'm pretty naive, but I think this isn't that believeable. I mean doesn't SM work with the Pro and EZ Prints if there's an issue? Leaving the customer out of the loop unless their order cannot be filled as requested? I'd also think in the rare cases where the Pro and customer need to communicate SM could and should play the middle-man. Afterall, they (SM) are trying to satisfy two customers. The Pro and the print buyer.

Bottomline, I would make it optional. As in "Opting Out" of sharing your personal information on a Privacy Notice. Best case, ask to share their email addy. You can ask whether they would allow SM to share their home address or phone number as a 3rd choice. Most definitely NO sharing of CREDIT CARD info by SM. I could see how this could quite easily lead to major issues. If the customer wants to share this info one-on-one with the Pro, that's their business.

Option 1: Opt out-no infomation sharing
Option 2: Share my email address only
Option 3: Share my email address and delivery information (excluding C/C info)

Just my opinion,
Steve

lynnesite

Jul-21-2006, 10:42 AM

Option 1: Opt out-no infomation sharing
Option 2: Share my email address only
Option 3: Share my email address and delivery information (excluding C/C info)
Just my opinion,
Steve

I agree with Steve. My customers fall into two groups, those who are buying event or farm call photos, they know me personally or professionally. The second group is for the wallhangers, and I have sold little of those because I'm very conflicted about selling what is also my stock portfolio that way and disabled printing in virtually all of those galleries.

I want e-mails on all of them, ideally. I like how Steve has stated it, easily understood for the customer.

JimM

Jul-21-2006, 10:44 AM

I really am happy with the information I currently receive, just name and email address. I make it a habit to email every customer a thank you email, and asking them to contact me if I can ever be of service. I just think that is good customer service.

I don't really need a phone number or address. As for the question someone brought up about verifying the customer's email address, they will put a valid one so they get their receipt and tracking information sent to them....

On a side note, the prints I ordered Monday arrived today.... as always terrific job Smugmug!!!!

JimM

Jul-21-2006, 11:52 AM

We're in the midst of testing some important new Pro features :wink. You've given such great feedback, we're pretty sure we know where most Pros stand on most of the features.

Baldy, you sure have our interests and hopes peaked with a statment like that!!! I think we all have our fingers crossed right now.

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 12:15 PM

I really am happy with the information I currently receive, just name and email address. I make it a habit to email every customer a thank you email, and asking them to contact me if I can ever be of service. I just think that is good customer service.Hi Jim,

Great feedback, thanks.

I want to make sure I worded my original post clearly enough so no one is surprised by a change.

Currently: The Pro is given the name and email of everyone who purchases. There is no mention of it in the shopping cart, only in the terms and conditions of the site.

Option 1: Does make it clear that we're giving contact info to the photographer. This could mean that some customers may get to the checkout and decide that their privacy is so important to them that they'll decide not to purchase after all.

Option 2: Makes it clear that we're giving contact info to the customer as well, but gives them the option to say no. This could mean you won't end up with any customer info for some orders where you do get it today. But the upside of this option, is for some orders you'll get physical address. We have a number of pros who send out newsletters whenever they've done a new photo shoot, so they want that.

Clear as mud? :scratch

Mongrel

Jul-21-2006, 12:15 PM

I also feel that this has to be fairly low down on the list as far as requested upgrades go. But anyway....

I don't need any more info from my customers than a valid email contact address and their name. I personally would find it intrusive to be asked any more than that from this type of online transaction.

If you do decide to make this part of the Pro Account shopping cart, PLEASE make it an option that I can TURN OFF at the gallery level. I don't even want my customers to have to deal with it, so they shouldn't have to see it.

Baldy, while you are here what's the status of the following?

1. Setting pricing at the category or sub-category level?
2. Custom watermark
3. Back printing
4. Gallery customization at the category and sub-category level?

Any idea as to when or if any of the above may be available?

Thanks,

Mongrel

marlinspike

Jul-21-2006, 12:26 PM

Just leave it how it is. I think to have radio buttons to adjust the level of info given would just confuse people.

gus

Jul-21-2006, 12:51 PM

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 01:17 PM

I also feel that this has to be fairly low down on the list as far as requested upgrades go. But anyway....One of the features high on the request list is digital downloads. We try to think about the little things that will make the big features succeed, so let me ask if you think this feature would seem bigger if we did digital downloads?

Currently, I buy a lot of stock photography to use on SmugMug's help and marketing pages. I have my favorite vendors but of course I'd really like to buy digital images from SmugMug pros.

When I buy from Getty, I don't have to worry about them giving my contact info to the photographer, and getting a newsletter from that photographer every time he goes out on a new shoot.

If I buy from Exposure Manager, my understanding is I'm not only getting on the photographer's email list, but he's getting my home address and phone too. I'm never told this, far as I can tell. I'm not a privacy freak, but the idea of that much info in the hands of 200 unknown photogs makes even me pucker.

SmugMug is on a pretty big scale now... Lots of people are drawn to the popular photos, search, etc. Isn't it important to prevent the blogosphere's heads from exploding when they find out that when you buy from that SmugMug place they give your contact info out to as many different people as photos you bought -- and they weren't told?

Confession: I shoot photos each year at Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance and I sell them on SmugMug. As a photographer, I dearly want the email of every customer who buys one of my shots.

But I don't want to email them and have their heads explode because they think I violated their privacy.

Your thoughts. :D

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 01:54 PM

I assume this new feature has been requested by at significant amount of Smugmug's Pro customers. What was their reason to want this feature?Actually, it might be more accurate to say it has been requested by a significant number of Pros who went elsewhere, and this was the reason they listed.

Here are the words of one photographer from a dpreview post:

(The decision) came down to the customer is and remains yours at ExposureManager NOT like at Smugmug where the customer is hijacked and becomes Smugmugs customer.There are powerful emotions behind it. The Big One is, "It's my customer, not yours." I feel I can understand that emotion well because I kill myself at Concours, I get the customer to the page, and I feel that SmugMug is the facilitator to fill the order.

But honestly, I've never been able to understand why the physical address and phone number is so important. And we do give the name and email address. And we don't spam the customer or try to sell them on SmugMug subscriptions, so I know we're missing something important.

ishotu

Jul-21-2006, 02:01 PM

I have some customers that won't even order prints on line if they have to enter a credit card number. I'd just as soon not give any more reason to be concerned. I'm ok with the way things work right now. My two cents.
Bill

Mongrel

Jul-21-2006, 02:06 PM

I'm not sure I'm totally following you here, but I'll try :D

If someone buys something from *me*, then it stands to reason that I will have their information. I mean when they go to my site and purchase an event or sports pic they are buying from 'Little BIG Shotz'. More than half of my customers probably don't even realize it's going through SmugMug, to EZ Prints and then on to them.

So following that scenario, to put something in writing that gives them a contact option etc. just seems to be :dunno They already *think* I'm getting their name, address, phone number, credit card number, or whatever else you ask them at the time of purchase. I don't see how they could think otherwise?

For this type of transaction, whether it's a single print or a digital download how could it be any other way? I guess that's why I'm confused over giving people an option. You (SmugMug that is) *are not* a stock photo agency representing *me*. I am a photographer who is using SmugMug as an internet storefront so again :dunno

Now, having said all of that and reconsidering my original comments, here is my 'new' take on it...

SmugMug SHOULD provide me with ALL the details of the transaction-period. This can be done without having to alert the customer that it is even happening. Why? Because it's MY customer and NOT SmugMugs! Again, they are buying *my* pics from *me* and have already consented to giving this information *to me* during the purchase process. So the issue isn't whether or not I *should* have the information, but whether or not SmugMug will forward me what is already *mine* and provided to *me* by the customer.

If there is some legal mumbo-jumbo involving the credit card info-fine. I can live without that and don't need it. But providing me with "the facts"-name, rank, and serial number, well why not?

Ok...

I just re-read your post above and I'm still :scratch . How does someone buying a pic from "Little BIG Shotz" have anything to do with information getting "into the hands of 200 unknown photographers"? You buy MY pic, I have your *number*. If I wanted to do business as a "stock" photographer I'd submit my images to a stock agency. If you want MY pic, sorry but you have to buy it from ME. Now, if an agency wants to buy my pic, then they can contact me and that can be worked out I guess.

Maybe I'm really missing something here, so help me out...

Jeffro

Jul-21-2006, 02:30 PM

The problem: Some Pros would love more contact info about who's buying their stuff. We'd love to be responsive to them. We just want to provide it in an ethically and legally sound way.

I have a pro account, and getting the name and e-mail of the customer has always been more than enough. In fact, I haven't even had to make contact with any of them. Often times the customers contact me, via my e-mail, before buying, with any questions they have. If there is a problem with their order, and they want to contact me my e-mail is there for them. Otherwise I don't want to bother them with e-mails that may seem pushy. I don't think there needs to be another set of buttons giving unimportant options. With SmugMug doing my shipping I no longer need the home address of my customers. In fact I switched to SmugMug so I could stop dealing with all that info in the frist place. So far I have had zero complaints about my pictures, the quality, the delivery time....anything.

So in case I lost you...I don't need the extra info / options for said info.

If you decide to go that way, I want to be able to shut it off too.

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 03:39 PM

I'm not sure I'm totally following you here, but I'll try :D No worries, I'm following you. Bless you for taking the time to make your points so clearly.SmugMug SHOULD provide me with ALL the details of the transaction-period. This can be done without having to alert the customer that it is even happening. Why? Because it's MY customer and NOT SmugMugs! Again, they are buying *my* pics from *me* and have already consented to giving this information *to me* during the purchase process. As a Pro myself, I also feel passionately that it's my customer. It's a very important point to me.

The problem is, it isn't completely true. Their personal info is actually being given to us, the intermediary, and we want to pass all that we can legally, and in good conscience, to you.

We want to for many reasons:

1. It will endear us to you, our subscriber, without whom these orders wouldn't happen. :):

2. We believe you'll use it to make the relationship with your customer stronger.

3. We believe you won't use it for spam, making a mockery of SmugMug's anti-spam stance. :wxwax

4. We know our competitors will do it without qualm, unless privacy advocates stop them.

The problem is putting yourself in the buyer's shoes. Soccer mom is told by her neighbor that she can buy pics of her daughter playing lacrosse. She has no idea who shot the photos but she sees them on a website. She buys them.

It's one thing for the unknown photographer to get her email address, quite another to get her daughter's physical address. No?

docwalker

Jul-21-2006, 03:43 PM

I personally like the idea of getting the Name, Email Address, and Mailing Address as a minimum. My customers know me. They could care less who SM is. I think a written statement that the credit card information will not be given out is sufficient. Then send the photog the contact info. No one else needs to see the CC info but SM.

I am self fulfilling a lot of my orders locally as people are more afraid of the interface than giving out their CC or personal info. I talk to my customers, I tell them how long it will take to get their orders. I find out what causes them pain.

Another note is that I really need to know who is purchasing my photos. If I sell a copy of a photo and then find that it has been used inappropriately I need to know who did it. The person may not answer an email. But, if I send them a certified letter it might get more attention.

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 03:57 PM

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 04:05 PM

Just leave it how it is. I think to have radio buttons to adjust the level of info given would just confuse people.Currently, the shopping cart says, "This email address and password are used solely to send you order confirmations and let you check the status of your order."

What if we nuked the buttons and just tweaked the words a little to make it clear the email is given to the photographer who shot these photos?

DavidTO

Jul-21-2006, 04:09 PM

Bodley

Jul-21-2006, 04:11 PM

The Big One is, "It's my customer, not yours." I feel I can understand that emotion well because I kill myself at Concours, I get the customer to the page, and I feel that SmugMug is the facilitator to fill the order.

Ditto - the customers on my site are mine-Period. I shoot events which is different by nature and certainly is directed to a specific audience and has no appeal to anyone outside that audience. If I don't get that audience to my site, well it's lights out.

Now I love SM, a check of my post can back this up, but if I quit getting the customers name and email information I'll be looking elsewhere. Didn't think I would ever say that. Always thought I would hang on here until the options I want appear. Keeping MY/OUR customers basic information from me could be a deal breaker. Just the thought kinda makes me mad.

Address / phone - just how protected is this type of information? Most of it is located in the phone book. Not getting this is not a deal breaker.

Check box - bad idea. I think most people would expect the Pro to get the info and would not give it a second thought until faced with the check box. When faced with this check box, for reasons even they can't explain (I know because it happens to me), they get suspicious and quit the deal. I work too hard to have my/our customers scared off by the box and I think this could truly hurt sells.

How about a note in the Thank You / Order Conformation screen which appears after the deal saying "Thank You for your order. The Photographer has been contacted with the information." Would that relieve your conscious conflict? This would also fit in with the option to upload proof photos then after the sell SM would contact the photog and give them 48/72 hrs to upload the corrected photos to send out to the customer. Blessing to event photogs, but this is off topic, sorry.

Bodley

Jul-21-2006, 04:18 PM

Very interesting insight I would not have thought of had you not posted. Thanks.
Yes, this has been my reason for wanting the customer info. I shoot youth sports even some gymnastics (protected galleries only). If someone starts buying photos out of character I need to know. Always felt like in such a case I coud get the address from SM. Without the name/email I'm in the dark.

T4Tots

Jul-21-2006, 04:28 PM

My opinion is. Many times my customers assume I am in charge of my pro site at smugmug. They even think I can see what is in their shopping cart and help them with it. They assume I have all of their information when they enter it. Pictures are such that it is important you know who is getting a copy of your work - amateur or pro. I would actually LOVE LOVE! to get an email when someone has made an order. I have to check regularly so that I know to make sure they receive their prints in good order etc...but usually have no idea an order has been made.

Having their email and first and last name is all I have ever needed. Because it is their portraits or their child or family member...so I have their info before they order. But, again that is just my circumstance.

I would reallly love it if smugmug advanced into adding backing and canvas options, but i think that's the pro in me and the desire to not have so many vendors where my prints are ordered.

Thanks for asking us to contribute our opinion.

Tina

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 04:36 PM

I believe that the message the ordering customer needs to get is that you are working in partnership with the photographer, and that together you provide a better service than either could on their own. Because it is a partnership you will be providing the photographer with the name and email of his/her customers.That is poetry.

Mike Lane

Jul-21-2006, 05:14 PM

That is poetry.
:agree :clap DavidTO :clap Pretty much says it all and I think that kind of helps to solidify the relationship that smugmug has with both its photographer customers (us) and its photography customers.

Andy

Jul-21-2006, 05:24 PM

Dna

Jul-21-2006, 05:25 PM

My current system is such that I get all their info because I have to send the photos out. I don't do anything with it after I send the photos out unless they request a reprint, so it doesn't bother me either way if I get the info from my customers through SmugMug.
My info on the back of the photo they ordered is more important to me than me getting all their info.

Digital downloads is more important (20% of my sales are downloads), a discounting system for bulk orders would be good (spend more than $50 and get 10% off), and customised watermarks would be awesome. (please, please, please ...)

Dna

jerryr

Jul-21-2006, 05:51 PM

Option 2: Makes it clear that we're giving contact info to the customer as well, but gives them the option to say no. This could mean you won't end up with any customer info for some orders where you do get it today. But the upside of this option, is for some orders you'll get physical address. We have a number of pros who send out newsletters whenever they've done a new photo shoot, so they want that.

Clear as mud? :scratch

Hi - A long day at DCX so I will be brief and stick to the question/decision at hand. I like Option 2. This way, the customer does not HAVE to provide specific information to the photographer. But, in an earlier posting, I would hate to see a situation in which a photograph was purchased and used inappropriately!
Happy Friday Evening everyone - #2 gets my vote. I have a TON of ideas for upgrades, etc, etc, but I will save them for another summer day....

- jr

pat.kane

Jul-21-2006, 08:49 PM

Providing the customer an option to not provide basic information that we already receive isn't an acceptable option. I need to know who is buying images.

DavidTO's option looks best to me as it truly is a partnership between the photographer and smugmug and both of the partners should be entitled to the information. I'm satisfied with only receiving the name and e-mail address.

When/if self-fulfillment becomes an option, then that of course would be a different story as the photographer would definitely require a delivery address to complete the transaction.

Thanks for asking and I'm looking forward to the other pro options that are hopefully on the near-term horizon.

Baldy

Jul-21-2006, 09:14 PM

:clap DavidTO :clapSince I called it poetry I hope you won't mind me sharing my favorite poem, which I think applies.

He Wishes For the Cloths of Heaven

W.B. Yeats

Had I the heaven's embrodered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

It may seem too dramatic to you, but I feel like the last 3 lines apply to me very personally at SmugMug and they must apply on some level to you too.

When I read DavidTO's simple words and considered that by comparison what I had written seemed to convey thinly veiled contempt ('we forbid'...), it made me shudder a little.

The spirit of this should reflect the vast majority of our pros like Tina who delight their customers and not the very small minority who annoy their customers with pushy email.

Mongrel

Jul-21-2006, 09:24 PM

Now that that's out of the way, let me see if I *get it* :scratch

I was under the assumption that:

1. I was a photographer who wanted a way to sell prints to customers for profit.

2. I needed a service that would provide me with-

webspace to showcase my photos
a shopping cart function that would allow people to purchase prints using a credit card
a printer, who would stand behind their work and take care of problems and customer service if necessary

3. I was paying for the above service via-

yearly fee (for webspace)
% of my profit from sales (to cover the shopping cart service and credit card fees)

4. SmugMug provided me with #2 and #3 above.

5. The relationship that SmugMug was concerned with, was their relationship with 'me'.

:dunno

Now, it seems that-

1. I am a photographer who wants to sell prints for profit.

2. I am in a *partnership* with SmugMug.

3. We *share* MY customers.

4. I am not *entitled* to receive information freely given by these customers at time of print purchase because SmugMug is afraid I'll spam them and this will damage SmugMug's reputation.

Does that sound about right?

Now, I suk at math but it sure seems like something isn't exactly adding up :scratch

DavidTO

Jul-21-2006, 09:31 PM

Now, it seems that-

1. I am a photographer who wants to sell prints for profit.

2. I am in a *partnership* with SmugMug.

3. We *share* MY customers.

4. I am not *entitled* to receive information freely given by these customers at time of print purchase because SmugMug is afraid I'll spam them and this will damage SmugMug's reputation.

Does that sound about right?

Now, I suk at math but it sure seems like something isn't exactly adding up :scratch

Mongrel,

That's not what I'm getting at all.

Let's work from the back, starting with #4. Smugmug is in the process of examining how they deal with customer information and pros. Nothing is set in stone right now, and you're getting in a tizzy because they've asked for input and are being transparent about the process. Relax.

#3. Sure they're your customers, but they are also smugmug's customers. They pay smugmug. Smugmug shares the profits with you, based on your charge for the print. Smugmug takes their responsibility to both paying parties seriously. That's why they guarantee the prints even if it's your mistake. They value the customer ordering the prints, they value the professional customer who posts something worth printing.

Smugmug is handling the transaction for you, that's a good part of what you pay them for. They have legal and ethical responsibilities in that transaction that they need to uphold.

They're asking for your help, not cutting you off.

Mongrel

Jul-21-2006, 09:43 PM

jfriend

Jul-22-2006, 12:02 AM

Seems to me you're working for two parties here. The ordering customer and the photographer customer. Both are paying you for this service that you provide. The customer for ordering the prints and the photographer for the fulfillment of the order.

I believe that the message the ordering customer needs to get is that you are working in partnership with the photographer, and that together you provide a better service than either could on their own. Because it is a partnership you will be providing the photographer with the name and email of his/her customers.
This is probably said better than I can say it by DavidTo.

Before I read this, I was thinking that the root of the issue is the presentation of who the customer is buying from. If the customer thinks they are buying from the pro and that the pro uses a service to help fullfill their order, nobody is going to be surprised that the pro gets all the order information and nobody is going to be surprised that the service gets the information in order to do their part of the job. All expectations will be met without requiring any complicated privacy choices.

If the presentation makes it seem like the customer is buying from a consignment store (Smugmug) that might be sharing profits with a pro, then it all gets messy very quick. Unlike the previous scenario, different customers will have different expectations of privacy, info sharing, etc... in this circumstance. If the pro isn't even mentioned and only Smugmug is, then it really gets bad. See this thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=38735) for an example of what one pro thinks along these lines.

Further, from what I've read here and on dpreview, it really irks some pro photographers when they think their customers whom they brought to the site are led to believe they are buying from Smugmug, not from the pro. A shopping cart with no photographer branding whatsoever in it and lots of Smugmug branding is the biggest example of which way Smugmug seems to be leaning on this issue now. If I was trying to make a living as a pro photographer, I don't think I'd stand for this.

Go look at how Symantec's online store for Norton Anti-Virus works. That store is actually run by Digital River as a service to Symantec. But, the whole store is branded Symantec. There are some places where the customer needs to know they are are dealing with a service company, but not very many. In their case, even the credit card bill will say "DR-Symantec". That experience feels very much like you are buying from Symantec and a 3rd party is involved in helping fullfill your order, not the other way around.

I Simonius

Jul-22-2006, 05:17 AM

We're in the midst of testing some important new Pro features :wink. You've given such great feedback, we're pretty sure we know where most Pros stand on most of the features.

SNIP
Feel free to suggest wording changes or other options.

Thanks!
Baldy

Simple:
1- would you like (Andy Williams) to have better contact info for you?
(link to page that allows for any extra info input)
------------------

Keeps it nice and simple:thumb
keeps the ball in their court:thumb
Isn't offputting :thumb
Is FRIENDLY:thumb
Gives them something to think about for next time without having to make any choices AT THIS TIME (of initial purchase):thumb

i.e. No negatives!

EDIT: just read the bit about digital downloads
That is a whole different ball game to selling prints

Presumably others have already set the trend for what is and what isnt needed in this regards i.e other image libraries?

I Simonius

Jul-22-2006, 05:34 AM

But honestly, I've never been able to understand why the physical address and phone number is so important. And we do give the name and email address. And we don't spam the customer or try to sell them on SmugMug subscriptions, so I know we're missing something important.

I guess the physical phone No and address could be important for digital downloads because there has to be some way to check up on them if they try to hide when you notice they have been using your pics outside the licence terms???

bigwebguy

Jul-22-2006, 05:54 AM

so i'll jump on the davidTO bandwagon and agree that he has probably best defined the relationship/workflow between SM and the pros. Very eloquently as well.

I'll also amend my previous stance on defaulting to provide NO information to the pro. I wasnt aware that email and address were already provided..definitely dont want to take away a feature that the pros already have. I also understand better from a pro's perspective how important this information is.

Now not to get off topic, but I think jfriend has brought up a very important point. The perception of who the customer is buying from; aka. cart branding. If the customer always feels like they are on the pro's site, there is no question as to where their information is going. I dont believe this to be deceptive because you would use the davidTO blurb to inform the customer of the "arrangement". I would however place the blurb toward the end of the checkout process to maintain the perception of the pro's site for as long as possible.

I realize that smugmug's current model of allowing photos from multiple photographers in the cart does not fit into the branded cart scenario, but I believe there are ways to work around this while still maintaining the pro's identity. Obviously if there are only photos from one photographer in the cart, the photographer's branding should be used.

My only other suggestion at this point would be to instead of asking the customer about giving their information to the pros, ask them about their contact preference. Just allow the customer to specify whether it is okay for the photographer to contact them regarding specials and announcements. This way the photographer has the information they need in cases of abuse, but it also gives control to the customer in how they wish to be contacted.

Andy

Jul-22-2006, 06:14 AM

A shopping cart with no photographer branding whatsoever

We have had requests to provide branding in the cart from pros. We've acknowledged that we understand why, and that we'd like to provide for this if we can do so safely, securely, and still protect 1000% the integrity of the cc transaction. This is a piece of the pro puzzle that we're looking hard at and care deeply about, and we know our pros do, too. Stay tuned, and thanks for posting about this important piece, John.

Mike Lane

Jul-22-2006, 06:57 AM

Nice to hear from you...

hmmm...you must have picked up on someone else's bad vibe....:dunno

Tizzy? Hardly, just trying to figure out the reasoning behind not giving full information out to photgraphers who have sold prints. The simplest way to convey where my heads at is to lay it out all nice and neat like.

Sorry, but I've never really gotten 'poetry' so you have to excuse my lack of eloquence.

Even, if I were in a tizzy (which again, I'm really not), why are you so defensive about it?

And I still disagree, that "they are also SmugMug's customers". All I have to do is take away the shopping cart option, have them email me directly and I can order the prints from 'Mug or print them myself. POOF-they are *my* customers entirely, I pay Smugmug (and SmugMug sells me the 4X6 for 19 cents plus shipping...). When Mrs. Smith buys my shot of her daughter (#37 btw), in no way is she *knowingly* paying SmugMug, she is *paying* me, and I'm paying SmugMug.

:1drink (this guy means-NO TIZZY :D )

It did seem like you were kind of upset earlier...

If you take away your customer's ability to purchase through smugmug and enjoy all the ease and speed of the shopping cart and all the automatic, amazing customer service and instead replace it with a process that requires them to email or call you, maybe make them worry about where their money is going, and make the whole order/print/ship/guarantee process take a lot longer than it otherwise would then yes, I would say those customers would be your customers. You would have figured out a way around paying Smugmug 15% and would have seriously degraded your customer's experience at the same time. Like DavidTO said, together you and smugmug can provide a service that is much better than either of you could do separately (okay, so he said it much better than I did).

You can make your purchase process more difficult right now or you can do that after smugmug makes whatever changes they come up with after this thread. But it seems to be off topic for this thread IMO other than the fact that you have illustrated that it would be quite prudent for Smugmug to solidify their relationship with you and your shared customers.

Mongrel

Jul-22-2006, 07:43 AM

It did seem like you were kind of upset earlier...

If you take away your customer's ability to purchase through smugmug and enjoy all the ease and speed of the shopping cart and all the automatic, amazing customer service and instead replace it with a process that requires them to email or call you, maybe make them worry about where their money is going, and make the whole order/print/ship/guarantee process take a lot longer than it otherwise would then yes, I would say those customers would be your customers. You would have figured out a way around paying Smugmug 15% and would have seriously degraded your customer's experience at the same time. Like DavidTO said, together you and smugmug can provide a service that is much better than either of you could do separately (okay, so he said it much better than I did).

You can make your purchase process more difficult right now or you can do that after smugmug makes whatever changes they come up with after this thread. But it seems to be off topic for this thread IMO other than the fact that you have illustrated that it would be quite prudent for Smugmug to solidify their relationship with you and your shared customers.

I have no plans on going anywhere at the moment. The scenario described was the best way I could explain how I looked at the "whose customer is it" question. I agree that the SmugMug buying experience and all the support that goes with it is probably the best available and certainly helps me keep customers happy.

But again, no matter how wonderful the relationship may be, if I provided an alternative buyng experience (even at the expense of additional time and effort on my part) SmugMug would have no *claim* on them at all. They are *my* customers and will go where I go.

Now, as to being "off topic"? We are having a discussion, and discussions take twists and turns. And this all very much has to do with the reasoning and thought process of SmugMug Pros and how they feel about this. So, no, it's not off-topic at all imo.

Mongrel

Jul-22-2006, 07:56 AM

This is makes the situation even worse imo:

Simple:
1- would you like (Andy Williams) to have better contact info for you?
(link to page that allows for any extra info input)
------------------

You just bought a print from me and the 'guy' who does my printing is asking if you want *me* to have better contact info? Again, the photographer is pushed out of the equation even further and the 'printer' is controlling the transaction?

Keeps it nice and simple:thumb
keeps the ball in their court:thumb
Isn't offputting :thumb
Is FRIENDLY:thumb
Gives them something to think about for next time without having to make any choices AT THIS TIME (of initial purchase):thumb

i.e. No negatives!

1. I don't want the ball "in their court". I want the ball in *my* court.
2. There isn't anything "offputting" to the customer as it is now, just give the pros the info and be done with it.
3. There isn't anything unfriendly about it now. The customer thinks they're buying prints directly from me.
4. I don't want my customers thinking about anything more than they just purchased wonderful prints of their "whatever" from Anthony Gargani-Photographer.

pat.kane

Jul-22-2006, 09:54 AM

...
3. There isn't anything unfriendly about it now. The customer thinks they're buying prints directly from me.
...

I think that is the issue at hand and it has already been brought up in this thread. Who does the customer think they're buying the prints from?

1. from you?
2. from smugmug?

Without a doubt, the answer for some is #1 and for others #2. Even though you may have branded your site, there is no doubt it is a smugmug shopping cart. Until a branded cart becomes an available option (not necessarily going to happen), this confusion will remain.

That is why I like DavidTo's response, which helps explain that a partnership exists between the photographer and smugmug. I also try to emphasize this on my web site, which states:

Our online order fulfillment and printing is handled by smugmug, inc. The pictures are printed by EZ Prints, a professional lab in Georgia, with outstanding quality, quick turnaround and a broad selection of prints and gifts (http://www.smugmug.com/prints/catalog2.mg). Your satisfaction is guaranteed (http://www.smugmug.com/prints/our-guarantee.mg)!

rutt

Jul-22-2006, 12:34 PM

Why not let the pro set the policy for contact with his/her customers? There seems to be more than one viable options on the table and a lot of strong feelings among the pros as to which one would work or not for them. Allow them to choose just so long as the terms are made clear to the pros' customers. The pro who wants it gets a radio button at checkout time to give the customers a choice about sharing info. The pro who just wants notification and email gets that with wording adapted from David's poetry. The pro who wants his customers to have total privacy gets that and an appropriate statement about how to contact him/her if there is an issue.

This might be a case were one size really doesn't fit all.

rutt

Jul-22-2006, 12:36 PM

Oh, and as for stock photography, if you allow pros to set policy on a gallery by gallery basis, they can have a place to sell stock photography and a place for transactions with less privacy protection and the terms can be spelled out differently in each place.

georges

Jul-22-2006, 01:55 PM

What about an extra line of info on each cart item that specifies where it came from?

Like this:

http://Georges.smugmug.com/photos/83239853-S.jpg

that seems like it would communicate quite clearly that the customer is doing business with smugmug and the photographer.

See you later, gs
http://georgesphotos.net

cabbey

Jul-22-2006, 03:24 PM

We have a number of pros who send out newsletters whenever they've done a new photo shoot, so they want that.

We believe you won't use it for spam, making a mockery of SmugMug's anti-spam stance.

As the old Monty Python bit about "spam, spam, spam and spam with spam" goes through my head, I can't help but think these two quotes are slightly contradictory. Junk mail is Junk mail. Electronic or postal, it doesn't matter, spam is spam.

Truth be told, if you're only going to take a stance against one of those two, I'd rather you took a stance against postal spam... bits on the wire aren't an endangered resources. Every week I put an inch thick stack of catalogs in the recycling from various web sites I've purchased from once or twice and now they send me their news letters, flyers, and catalogs. Even after I religiously bombard them with emails and even phone calls asking them not to send me their stuff when it first shows up. Yes, I am a http://www.fullsizechevy.com/454ss/treehugger.gif, I like to shoot landscapes, and would like them to still be around for a while.

As for how you're going to present this to the user, may I make a suggestion as a customer of a number of the pros on smug mug? First off DavidTO's wording is indeed poetry, so something very much like it would be ideal. But following that I think each pro should have an option to ask for more information. A single check box in their account setup should be all it takes, then simply itterate though the array of pros whose images are in the cart, and if they asked for it, put out the checkbox saying something like "One of the Professional Photographers you are purchasing images from, <a link to andy's page>Andy Williams</a>, would like your mailing address in addition to your email address which we always provide them under these <a link to pro account terms>terms of agreement</a>. Please check here if this is acceptable: [_]". Possibly add: "Or click here to remove their images from your shopping cart."?

Then on the final confirmation page, I would spell out exactly what information will be given to whom. Like so:

You have choosen to purchase prints from Professional Photographers hosting their sales with SmugMug, as part of this transaction some contact information about you will be provided to these photographers in accord with our agreements with them.

The following pro photographers will get your name (John Q. Sample) and email address (jonboy@sample.dom) only: <a joe's site>Joe Blow</a>, Jane Doe.

The following pro photographers will also recieve your mailing address (123 Main St, Yourtown, ST, 12345-6789): Andy Williams, Chris MacAskill.

All of these pro photographers will also be informed what images and at what sizes you choose to purchase prints of. Your billing information, including credit card information, will <a privacy policy>not be disclosed by smugmug to anyone</a>.

With the apporpriate links to terms of service, privacy policy, photographer's website, etc inserted.

jfriend

Jul-22-2006, 03:40 PM

This is probably said better than I can say it by DavidTo.

Before I read this, I was thinking that the root of the issue is the presentation of who the customer is buying from. If the customer thinks they are buying from the pro and that the pro uses a service to help fullfill their order, nobody is going to be surprised that the pro gets all the order information and nobody is going to be surprised that the service gets the information in order to do their part of the job. All expectations will be met without requiring any complicated privacy choices.

If the presentation makes it seem like the customer is buying from a consignment store (Smugmug) that might be sharing profits with a pro, then it all gets messy very quick. Unlike the previous scenario, different customers will have different expectations of privacy, info sharing, etc... in this circumstance. If the pro isn't even mentioned and only Smugmug is, then it really gets bad. See this thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=38735) for an example of what one pro thinks along these lines.

Further, from what I've read here and on dpreview, it really irks some pro photographers when they think their customers whom they brought to the site are led to believe they are buying from Smugmug, not from the pro. A shopping cart with no photographer branding whatsoever in it and lots of Smugmug branding is the biggest example of which way Smugmug seems to be leaning on this issue now. If I was trying to make a living as a pro photographer, I don't think I'd stand for this.

Go look at how Symantec's online store for Norton Anti-Virus works. That store is actually run by Digital River as a service to Symantec. But, the whole store is branded Symantec. There are some places where the customer needs to know they are are dealing with a service company, but not very many. In their case, even the credit card bill will say "DR-Symantec". That experience feels very much like you are buying from Symantec and a 3rd party is involved in helping fullfill your order, not the other way around.

In thinking about this some more, I think there are indeed two models in play here and part of the confusion is people talking for different points of view on the two different models.

Model #1: Your images are hosted at Smugmug and Smugmug lets you order prints.

In this model, everyone expects that images are really being ordered from Smugmug, that customer service comes from Smugmug and that those images were put there by a particular photographer. Questions about the images themselves should be addressed to the photographer. Questions about the products/prints you order should be addressed to Smugmug. This is pretty much how Smugmug works today and it's fine for most standard and power account holders and even some pro account holders.

In this model, I think you are already commuicating the right level of information to the photographer.

Model #2: You have a branded site and domain, you recruit your own customers and you are conducting a business.

In this model, the pro wants the Symantec model that was described above. They want a fully branded experience. They are OK with a small amount of communication about Smugmug just to make sure the customer knows who to go to for what kind of help, what to expect on their credit card bill, etc... But, Smugmug should be as much in the background as possible and should have as little of their own branding as possible. The shopping cart should be completely brandable. Pros who want this model will be absolutely fine with limiting the customer so that they can't put images from multiple sites into the same shopping cart, thus solving the branded cart problem.

Serious pros will probably want this second model, but pros should be given a choice to have model #1 (perhaps if they just don't bother to brand their experience).

In this second model, the pro expects to get full customer information and the customer will also have that expectation because of the fully branded experience with Smugmug only in the background as a service provider.

Summary: I think you need to offer two models in order to match the needs of your pros and the expectations of customers who navigate two different experiences (photographer branded vs. Smumug branded).

Mongrel

Jul-22-2006, 04:02 PM

In thinking about this some more, I think there are indeed two models in play here and part of the confusion is people talking for different points of view on the two different models.

Model #1: Your images are hosted at Smugmug and Smugmug lets you order prints.

In this model, everyone expects that images are really being ordered from Smugmug, that customer service comes from Smugmug and that those images were put there by a particular photographer. Questions about the images themselves should be addressed to the photographer. Questions about the products/prints you order should be addressed to Smugmug. This is pretty much how Smugmug works today and it's fine for most standard and power account holders and even some pro account holders.

In this model, I think you are already commuicating the right level of information to the photographer.

Model #2: You have a branded site and domain, you recruit your own customers and you are conducting a business.

In this model, the pro wants the Symantec model that was described above. They want a fully branded experience. They are OK with a small amount of communication about Smugmug just to make sure the customer knows who to go to for what kind of help, what to expect on their credit card bill, etc... But, Smugmug should be as much in the background as possible and should have as little of their own branding as possible. The shopping cart should be completely brandable. Pros who want this model will be absolutely fine with limiting the customer so that they can't put images from multiple sites into the same shopping cart, thus solving the branded cart problem.

Serious pros will probably want this second model, but pros should be given a choice to have model #1 (perhaps if they just don't bother to brand their experience).

In this second model, the pro expects to get full customer information and the customer will also have that expectation because of the fully branded experience with Smugmug only in the background as a service provider.

Summary: I think you need to offer two models in order to match the needs of your pros and the expectations of customers who navigate two different experiences (photographer branded vs. Smumug branded).
Now that my friends is POETRY!

Here I thought everyone was seeing it this clearly, when perhaps they were not? I am a definate "#2" above. In fact, most if not all of my "for sale" pics are in password protected galleries that are tied to direct marketing from me. That's *my* business model. I don't even put pricing on my other work, and if someone wanted to buy it, they would have to contact me first anyway to arrange a price etc.

The #1 aspect described above doesn't really fit me at all. In fact, it almost sounds like SmugMug is a stock image company using the Pro accounts as a 'pool' of images for people to peruse and purchase. Here's where I must confess I "missed it". I'd never really thought about it that way. So, NOW I can see why there would be a wee bit 'o stickiness with the way customer info is handled...

I may have to expand my thinking and start putting up some of my 'other' non-event work and see what happens....

Anyway, thanks Jfriend for putting this up...

northphoto

Jul-22-2006, 05:21 PM

I think digital downloads are a great idea! more important than the info request option.

And as far as Smugmug goes, I hired them to host my photos, I could have chosen from others but I chose Smugmug because of there customer service, and ability to deal with customers at times for me. If I had the time and money I would be running my own servers and website, and have printers in house, but I don't, I use smugmug, and pay smugmug to do so. They IMO are a tool, just like my camera is a tool.

In the grand scheam of things, I can't belive that people are worried about getting more info about the customer! If someone used a photo in an inapropriat manor, I would hope that smugmug would turn the customers info over to the appropriat parties! they do afterall have that info somewhere.

Again my wish list!!!! and I think I speak for most pros when I write this.

1. Ability to make up photo pkgs!
2. Baseball / playing cards with photos on them, as well as magazine covers.
3. Digital downloads / CD with photos on them.
4. Coupons 10% off of order of $50 or more or something like that!
5. Another catagorie under sub-catagorie!! " for example, I would love to break down my lacrosse as such Lacrosse - Boys Lacrosse - Games at CHS - then Games.

Thanks
Paul.

Andy

Jul-22-2006, 05:49 PM

In fact, it almost sounds like SmugMug is a stock image company using the Pro accounts as a 'pool' of images for people to peruse and purchase. Here's where I must confess I "missed it". I'd never really thought about it that way.
Just to be clear, we have no such offering or business model.

Mongrel

Jul-22-2006, 06:30 PM

Just to be clear, we have no such offering or business model.

I wasn't insinuating that SmugMug is doing this in any formal manner and didn't mean it in a negative way, so apologies upfront if that's how is was taken.

What I meant was that people can go through multiple photographers galleries adding images to an 'open' shopping cart as they go and purchasing all the images at one time. Perhaps my wording was incorrect or confusing. That's just the way the current system is setup, and I never had thought about it that way. I assumed that everytime you went to a different pros page you would start with a fresh shopping cart.

There are many aspects to SmugMug that actually encourage this-most popular photos, photo searches etc. that certainly seemed to be designed to get pros the most exposure possible. I guess I never thought about people 'out-there' in cyber space buying my pics on face value.

This has given me something to think about...

Take care,

Mongrel

Andy

Jul-22-2006, 06:48 PM

Take care,

Mongrel
No worries, Anthony - none at all! I was just making the point for all who might read this thread.

:wave

dogwood

Jul-24-2006, 03:41 PM

I find the e-mail contact info alone just fine. I really, really, really think smugmug needs to make the print ordering easier-- not more options or check boxes for customers.

I suspect I'm not the only one that gets the ol' e-mail or phone call from customers saying, "I'm trying to order prints but it won't let me!"

"Does it say, 'your shopping cart is empty'?" is always my first question. And the answer (so far) is "YES!".

Anyway, my point is that MANY of my customers can't even get to the print order page without my help (they get "your shopping cart is empty" when really it's a cookie issue-- and yes I have this prominently displayed-- in red-- above galleries with print ordering). Soooooo... if my customers can't even get to the print order site in the first place, well, you can see why an option to provide their mailing address is not much help (so I really am trying to stick to the original question).

This is a long way of saying, please change the "your shopping cart is empty" message to one that makes sense to the customer so they can actually order prints. Once that happens, I'm fine with just getting their e-mail addresses.

BTW: I had TWO "help I can't order prints" in the last week alone. Both of them were related to the good ol' (and useless) "your shopping cart is empty" message and both problems were actually due to cookies not being enabled.

jfriend

Jul-24-2006, 05:13 PM

BTW: I had TWO "help I can't order prints" in the last week alone. Both of them were related to the good ol' (and useless) "your shopping cart is empty" message and both problems were actually due to cookies not being enabled.

If it is a common problem that cookies aren't enabled when customers try to buy prints, isn't this something that Smugmug can detect and tell the user this directly right in the user interface? I've seen other web-sites that do this as I, myself, have cookies disabled for most sites. This would then prevent your support call and Smugmug's support call while communicating what must be done in order to make the cart work?

Dogwood, maybe you should put this feature request along with the data on the customer problems you are seeing over in either the feature request thread or the bug thread.

jwashburn

Jul-25-2006, 07:51 AM

I dont sell nearly as many photos as some of the other pros on here, but personally I have never seen any need for any more information than I already get. Thats why I signed up with smugmug, so I dont have to worry about it. I know this isnt the feature request thread but this goes along with the customers information/purchase area. I would just like a notification when a purchase happens.

Thanks

Andy

Jul-25-2006, 07:53 AM

If it is a common problem that cookies aren't enabled when customers try to buy prints, isn't this something that Smugmug can detect and tell the user this directly right in the user interface? I've seen other web-sites that do this as I, myself, have cookies disabled for most sites. This would then prevent your support call and Smugmug's support call while communicating what must be done in order to make the cart work?

Dogwood, maybe you should put this feature request along with the data on the customer problems you are seeing over in either the feature request thread or the bug thread.
We can, and JT's already got this issue on his plate. Thanks!

Andy

Jul-25-2006, 10:50 AM

DTMPhotos

Jul-25-2006, 01:48 PM

I would take out the credit card portion of both the options. Put it in the general sentence ("under no circumstances is your credit card information shared"). In the options selections, it might imply that under certain selections CC info might be shared.

BTW...personally, I prefer option #2.

Finally, given the messaging capability of SM, is it possible to have these kinds of discussions highlighted as a message to Pro's. Frankly, I'm more photographer than forum user, and although I check my SM site daily (for sales info), I often forget to check DG for weeks...Just a thought...

Derek

dogwood

Jul-25-2006, 02:26 PM

We can tell if they have cookies on or off, and javascript, too:
Yeah, obviously I've brought this issue up before. But it's good to see the cookie info above the "shopping cart is empty" info-- that's new right? I would suggest the cookie info be the only thing folk see... but there's probably a reason it's not. And what's weird is the majority of folks without cookies enabled are using Safari in my experience.

Anyway-- don't want to hijack this thread (or Andy's vacation) anymore than I already have. Thanks for the responses.

Baldy

Jul-25-2006, 07:46 PM

How about this wording?

SmugMug and (Pro's name) work as trusted partners to make sure your order is perfect. Both SmugMug and (Pro's name) will have your name and email to provide better service than either could alone.

DavidTO

Jul-25-2006, 08:06 PM

Well, this is different, not sure if it's better or not, but I think it sounds better to me...

SmugMug and (Pro's name) work as trusted partners to make sure that you are completely satisfied with your order. Both SmugMug and (Pro's name) will have your name and email so that, together, we can provide you with the best in service.

NikonGirl

Jul-25-2006, 08:59 PM

Here's my suggestion for the wording:

"Smugmug and (Pro’s Name) work as trusted partners to ensure your order is perfect. Together, we will retain your name and email address in order to provide you with the quality service you expect and deserve."

Mongrel

Jul-25-2006, 09:26 PM

"I (or simply insert 'pros' name here) have\has chosen SmugMug to provide you with the highest quality products, service and customer support available. In order to facilitate this, we share the responsibility of keeping your personal information strictly confidential and assure you that you will never be 'spammed' or otherwise abused by providing it".

(after all...it is "all about me" isn't it?)

docwalker

Jul-26-2006, 05:28 AM

I like Mongrels.

I also see the problem from both sides as of last night. I was forced to register at another site last week to view photos of a friends wedding. Now I am getting emails offering to sell me the wedding photos on DVD for $99. I am pretty sure that if I do not take the offer that in a week I will get another one offering prints. These are automated messages coming from the service not the photog as best I can tell.

Good marketing practice or not, it is a little annoying.

dogwood

Jul-26-2006, 07:59 AM

Baldy

Jul-26-2006, 01:10 PM

One thing, to be clear:

Our law firm says that if you are to use an email address for marketing purposes (spam) you must provide the customer an opt-out.

So we have to modify our terms & conditions for pro accounts to say that the email address we share with pros can't be used for spam, else we'd have to provide the opt-out.

The law firm sent us a new terms and conditions doc, which I'm going over this afternoon and will share when we get it done.

Thanks,
Baldy

jfriend

Jul-26-2006, 01:31 PM

technocraft

Jul-27-2006, 01:13 PM

I'm fine with the current info.

I can't believe this has priority over:

Getting an email that an order has been placed...or
In the cart, having ALL available print sizes show in one drop-down...or
Digital downloads....

@Docwalker, that sounds like Pictage. ;)

Andy

Jul-27-2006, 01:57 PM

technocraft

Jul-27-2006, 08:12 PM

Did we ever say it did :evil

We just wanted an open discussion on our thought processes.

Sorry, Andy, I certainly appreciate the open dialog on this particular topic (or any topic), but when there's a thread started over 18 months ago with 10k views that is still on the front page (and only below the two main stickies in view count) - it must be important, yet nothing has happened...

I've basically resigned myself to the fact that smugmug isn't going to be a pro-level application anytime soon, if ever. So I use other sites for other purposes (Pictage, Exposure Manager) - but it kills me because in terms of customization and aesthetics nobody beats the mug. :dunno

Andy

Jul-27-2006, 08:21 PM

nobody beats the mug.

I love this!

Stay tuned, we're listening we promise.

technocraft

Jul-27-2006, 08:30 PM

I love this!

Stay tuned, we're listening we promise.

I thought you might. But don't forget (and again, I know it's hard for you Andy since you're just the messenger) you've been posting some version of "stay tuned" for 18 months...

So in order to not completely threadjack this topic, let me say this:

jfriend is right on the money.

This dichotomy (between downplaying smugmug's involvement or not) is probably exactly why you guys brought this discussion out to us in the first place. So don't fight it - embrace it. Use Model #1 for everyone. Allow pros to choose Model #2 if they want it - isn't that part of why you have domain name options for pro accounts? And that's why I spent the time customizing my site the way I did - I can't get that level of control and branding anywhere else, except building it myself. And mind you, I'm a web developer by day, I could do it if I wanted to - but it just doesn't make sense for me. So give me Model #2 and the associated information.

kammerman

Aug-09-2006, 05:31 PM

Hi Andy,

Just came across this thread.

I would very much like the address of my clients. I use the physical address to send thank you notes and holiday cards, and sometimes for direct marketing. I also like to send "surprise" photos, but can't do that easily with my Pro Account.

I don't understand the ethics question. If I were self-fulfilling the orders, I would have the clients' addresses. Other online services provide the physical issue.

Is the question one of Smug Mug branding versus our individual studio branding of the delivered product?

Take care,
Lisa

Andy

Aug-09-2006, 07:44 PM

RogersDA

Aug-10-2006, 12:57 PM

Perhaps I can't find the posting anywhere, but what about adding a "contact me" section on each photog's page where the user can choose to enter name, address, phone, and/or email, etc. as well as a question. Posting this will, instead of generating a guest book comment, send an email to the photog's email address. You could possibly implement this on the checkout screen as well.

I personally would like to have the "contact me" page on my site so that I can remove my email address. This helps reduce the risk of computer bots scavenging for emails and then loading up the spam to my email account.

Just an idea....
David

Mike Lane

Aug-10-2006, 01:02 PM

RogersDA

Aug-11-2006, 07:00 AM

You can put this capability in your site for free by using tools like The Form Assembly (http://www.formassembly.com/forms.php).

Thanks, Mike, for the link.

I found the encoding link on the faq (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=222923#post222923). I think this will serve my needs.

David

Mike Lane

Aug-11-2006, 10:04 AM

...I think this will serve my needs.

That's the important part :thumb

bham

Aug-15-2006, 06:54 PM

Two options we're considering:

1. Add the following text to the shopping cart at checkout:

"SmugMug provides your name and email to the photographer (Andy Williams (http://williams.smugmug.com/)) whose photos you're buying. Our terms with photographers forbid them from selling your contact info or using it for spam (link to definition of spam)."

The customer would then see two check boxes with the left one on by default.

(0) Just give them name and email ( ) Phone and address is okay (but not my credit card!)

Pros: You always get some contact information, even if it's just email address.

Cons: You may lose some sales from people who don't want to share their contact information.

2. Add this text to the shopping cart at checkout:

"Is it okay if we provide the photographer whose photos you're buying (Andy Williams (http://williams.smugmug.com/)) with your contact info? They are frequently helpful if there's a problem with the order."

(0) Yes, but not my credit card! ( ) Yes, but only my email. ( ) No.

Pros: You won't lose sales since customers feel they have control over their privacy.

Cons: You may get sales without any contact information.

Feel free to suggest wording changes or other options.

Thanks!
Baldy

No way on number two in its current version because we may get less info than we get now. Have you had any complaints from customers so far? If not, and I suspect not, then eliminating info to pros would piss us off. Being someone who only has images for sale in galleries with passwords that the customers get at events, from me, etc, all my customers came to my site for my site, not anyway through smugmug. I realize that not all Pros are this way but my impression from dgrin is most are and most have more than a majority of their sales purchased by customers that had some type of direct contact with them, similar to my situation.

So I like number 1 with one change. Put the line about the terms with the photographer after/below the options box.

Jeffro

Aug-15-2006, 08:15 PM

I stated earlier that I haven't needed the customer's address for anything yet but I've been thinking about this.

It's been said in here somewhere, I'm sure, that my customers are just that, mine. Not SmugMugs. SmugMug is paid by me to do a job. My customer could careless who processes the photo's, they just pick the one's they like. Now if Smug doesn't do a good job, I lose a customer. And if that kept up, I would no longer choose to pay Smug to process my pictures. So I would think that the customers info should go to me, and to Smug. I see no need to tell the customer that the info is going here or there. I doubt any of them are too concerned about that. I think the disclaimer or warning would actually make some customers think a little harder, and maybe not order. Too many clicks, too much reading, too big a hassle.

Leave the warning off, provide the information, or as I said before let me turn the option off, because I don't want MY customers reading all that crap.

JErst

Aug-18-2006, 10:02 AM

I think the current information (name and email) is enough.
If I needed more information from my customers I get it when I take the pictures. There are some who dont like to use computers etc so I will get an address then and there so i can mail them their proofs.

ballentphoto

Aug-18-2006, 01:30 PM

I am a newbie in here and still customizing my site. So take this as a consumer/pro :D First there is no way that I want anyones CC info. Not even the last for numbers way too much liability involved there. Getting someone's address would make it appear that I am handing the printing process (which I do not want to deal with, and why I chose SM) A person's valid e-mail and name would suffice for my needs.

As far as the ordering process from a customer's perspective I think a great option would be for people to be able to create their own profile and login into SM. This would allow them to taylor their experience on the site with what what they are looking for. They can tell SM that they are usually looking for digital downloads, or pictures of horses, or macros of bugs, or what ever keywords they are usually searching for. When they log in they are presented with images what meet their search criteria, with their prefered photogs on the top and perhaps with a link to other photogs that may have what they are looking for. If they hit like say http://www.ballentphoto.com (shameless plug :rofl) then images that match what they are interested in will show up in the order of newest uploads.

For other folks that do not want to create profiles it can be business as usual.

Just my .02 :1drink

bham

Aug-18-2006, 04:12 PM

As far as the ordering process from a customer's perspective I think a great option would be for people to be able to create their own profile and login into SM. This would allow them to taylor their experience on the site with what what they are looking for. They can tell SM that they are usually looking for digital downloads, or pictures of horses, or macros of bugs, or what ever keywords they are usually searching for. When they log in they are presented with images what meet their search criteria, with their prefered photogs on the top and perhaps with a link to other photogs that may have what they are looking for. If they hit like say http://www.ballentphoto.com (shameless plug :rofl) then images that match what they are interested in will show up in the order of newest uploads.

For other folks that do not want to create profiles it can be business as usual.

Just my .02 :1drink

You need to go to smugmug.com and enter any text in the search menu. You get a ton of option for anything you type in. The only thing that smugmug needs to add to have close to what you request is to have a radio button that has 1. all images 2. images available via prints 3. images available via digital download

xtnomad

Aug-20-2006, 09:08 PM

allensphoto

Aug-21-2006, 12:34 PM

Another note is that I really need to know who is purchasing my photos. If I sell a copy of a photo and then find that it has been used inappropriately I need to know who did it. The person may not answer an email. But, if I send them a certified letter it might get more attention.

I am new with my pro site with most of my sales coming from people at the event in which i shot... but my first sale however was from a person whom i did not know .. and having an address would have been nice .. or at least a place ( database ) to go look the info up on.. for the above mentioned reason.. but for the most part the name and e-mail has and will be fine.
I also feel that alerting the buyer as to where the info is going would only lead to more apprehension. Like others i think most of my customers think i allready have the info anyway..thanks and keep the good work.. :thumb

BeltzClan

Aug-22-2006, 11:45 AM

If I have to chose - I say leave it alone. I don't want to lose out on the name and email address I am already getting.

Having said that - Have your lawyers advised that there is a legal reason why I am not entitled to the other info - minus the credit card - as i am the one conducting the buisness and smugmug helps facilitate it as a sort of partnership?

Just curious. You guys are awesome in everything you do. But I dont want to take a chance in losing the info I already get.

gymshots

Aug-23-2006, 09:23 PM

Here, Here! I am with you! I specifically logged on tonight to request the ability to add custom packages like you suggest below and/or to produce a CD. Other photo hosting websites offer this ability and more. It would be a huge benefit to my business as well....also, in sports photography.

Susan Jones
gymshots.smugmug.com

I am not sure how this is going to help a pro any more?? We are given the email address and name of the customer with each order placed, if we needed to get in touch with a customer we can just email them? I think most customers would only allow there email as a contact anyway.

If SmugMug realy wants to help the PRO photographers, they should add different pkgs. for example (1-8x10, 2-5x7's, and 4-wallets) and other pkgs for a single price! this way we can offer a discounted pkg price, and help boost sales. Also, adding Photos on a baseball card or Sports Illustrated cover would be great! also selling digital images on a CD would be a great option, and one that has little overhead for smugmug since there is no printing involved.

Keep in mind, I am a sports photographer, and these are options that would really help me out, I am sure they will help most out. I have been with Smugmug since day 1, and intend on being with them for the long haul, but as my business grows, I need to be able to compeat with others that offer these items.

Paul North
NORTH Photo

photogmomma

Aug-29-2006, 08:39 PM

What about option:

(C): [x] Would you like the photographer to have your address, phone number for contacting you about blah blah blah and he/she promises not to spam you under penalty of death.

If we are already given their email address and no one seems to have an issue with that, why even let them know that turning it off is an option?

And I agree - if this information is available to me online, that's totally fine. And if I can download it to CSV format for my own use, that's even better!

karkar

Sep-08-2006, 11:31 PM

Baldy,

I'd be surprised if your merchant agreement allows you to release credit card information to third parties. I'm sure it would not make Visa and Mastercard too happy if you did. Besides who would be liable if that information is compromised? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6030057/) :scratch Instead you should reassure the purchasers that Smugmug protects and disposes of that information with the outmost dilligence.

As for the name and address, I sure would like to know who is buying my product and where is it being shipped to. Even if Smugmug prints it and mails it, it is still my product (http://www.ppa.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=16):D and my customer. Would it be be helpful to my business if at least I could know what city and state my customers are from? Indeed. Do I absolutely need to know the customer's street address? Not really, if I can at least contact them via email.:thumb

Thanks for asking anyway. It shows that Smugmug cares.:clap

We're in the midst of testing some important new Pro features :wink. You've given such great feedback, we're pretty sure we know where most Pros stand on most of the features.

When we've had questions in the past, dgrin debates have been a big help in getting things right.

The problem: Some Pros would love more contact info about who's buying their stuff. We'd love to be responsive to them. We just want to provide it in an ethically and legally sound way.

Currently, we share only the email address and the customer's first and last name with our pros. The buyer often comes to the Pro's SmugMug site because they know the Pro and it only makes sense that the Pro can contact them if there is a problem with the order, etc.

Consumers, though, are rightfully sensitive about sharing their personal information online. Some of our Pro sales come from people who aren't aware they're buying a Pro print.

To meet the needs of our Pros without ignoring the fears of our consumers, we think we should add an option to the shopping cart.

Two options we're considering:

1. Add the following text to the shopping cart at checkout:

"SmugMug provides your name and email to the photographer (Andy Williams (http://williams.smugmug.com/)) whose photos you're buying. Our terms with photographers forbid them from selling your contact info or using it for spam (link to definition of spam)."

The customer would then see two check boxes with the left one on by default.

(0) Just give them name and email ( ) Phone and address is okay (but not my credit card!)

Pros: You always get some contact information, even if it's just email address.

Cons: You may lose some sales from people who don't want to share their contact information.

2. Add this text to the shopping cart at checkout:

"Is it okay if we provide the photographer whose photos you're buying (Andy Williams (http://williams.smugmug.com/)) with your contact info? They are frequently helpful if there's a problem with the order."

(0) Yes, but not my credit card! ( ) Yes, but only my email. ( ) No.

Pros: You won't lose sales since customers feel they have control over their privacy.

Cons: You may get sales without any contact information.

Feel free to suggest wording changes or other options.

Thanks!
Baldy

Mike Lane

Sep-09-2006, 09:31 AM

Baldy,

I'd be surprised if your merchant agreement allows you to release credit card information to third parties. :scratch Who said anything about releasing credit card info?

SteveM

Sep-14-2006, 09:37 AM

Credit card info? Now we're just being silly.

I've followed this thread here and there and it seems the major consensus is that the information Smugmug provides is currently (more than) enough. I have to agree. One poster who is a real estate/mortgage agent mentioned that at his open houses, many people don't sign the guestbook, or when they do, they give false information. Uhm, how do you know they give false information? Easy. Because you try to CONTACT them in some way, and in doing so, verify the information is incorrect. Which is exactly WHY they gave you false information in the first place. I looked at a house... I don't want to be hounded by phone calls, email or junkmail to try to encourage or bolster my interest or spending, and neither do my customers. And that's what most customers are going to assume, that if they give this info, it's going to be used whether it's a newsletter, mailing list, spam, home phone calls or physical junk mail. Who wants that?

I also have a second tier of concern. I am an event photographer and 80% of my sales come from parents buying prints of their children. In this day and age of a combination of weirdos and hysteria, people are very careful and selective with whom they share information, especially centered around their children, and who can blame them? My privacy policy is already very stringent (please view at http://www.downriverphotography.com/gallery/1596672 for insight). I have already had to edit this policy to include the recent addition of first and last name being provided to the photographer, which before read "No personal information is shared..." which is how I preferred it. I want the most secure, comfortable environment for my customers with nothing for them to wonder or worry about. It is easy enough to start an OPT-IN mailing list/form on your webpage if you have a need for customer names and addresses. However, by providing this information by default, I see no good use for it and only a potential for abuse. I can always request this information from individual buyers through valid email addresses. If there is an urgent issue that would actually require a home phone number or customer address, it would certainly be pressing enough to contact Smugmug over, and let them handle the intervention.

As for the last group of people that might say, "They're my photos and I want to/have a right to know who is buying my work!". If you put anything up for public sale, no, you really don't have a right to know anything. This isn't finding foster parents for your kids or a good home for your puppy. You cannot pick and choose. When you make a purchase at Best Buy, they ask for your zip code and you have every right to not give it to them. If you say "I have bikini photos of my wife and I want to know who is buying them and for what purpose!", not only is this unrealistic, but it's probably also illegal. You cannot pick and choose and discriminate between a fashion designer and a lewd old man. If it's sensitive enough to cause you concern, it should be in a passworded gallery where you know who has access to it and why.

I personally do not want anyone to feel anything but confidence in their purchase. I also don't want the added liability of being "privledged" with any more information. Many are already nervous about ANY online transactions and may have to overcome their fears just in doing business with Smugmug. Lets not add another facet of concern, eh?

Steve
http://www.downriverphotography.com

MVPMoments

Sep-25-2006, 10:49 PM

I have read every post in this thread with great interest. For purposes of full disclosure (the lawyer in me), I have an Exposure Manager account but am in the process of struggling through customizing my SM page. I do think ExpMan has the right business model for the pro photographer on this issue. Basically, the customer belongs to the photographer and ExpMan is there to simply facilitate the photo ordering process. Everything that is sent from ExpMan to the customer appears to come from me, the photographer, with my name and contact info. I get e-mails and notifications of every step in the order fulfillment process which allows me to also make sure there are no snags or delays in the process. I also have access to the full order history for all of my customers. It makes me look like a much bigger operation that I really am and therefore brings me much more credibility. I get the customers' basic contact info - name, address, phone # and e-mail address. I DO WANT all of that info. As some other posters mentioned, I want to get that info to be able to do my own direct mail. As for the legal parts (although this is not by any means legal advice), as long as Smugmug discloses in their terms and conditions for a person using the site that the info is given to the photographer, I believe they are covered. It is a simple disclosure issue - not a choice issue. I do not think any customer will not purchase through Smugmug because their contact info is given to the photographer that actually took the picture they are purchasing. This is especially true for the event photographer, like me, where the captured audience is only getting to Smugmug because of me.

As far as the opt-out issue goes, as I understand the CANN-SPAM law, the opt-out is only required for unsoliciated e-mail advertising for people without an existing business relationship. Once a customer purchases from Smugmug, there is a business relationship established and the opt-out rules no longer are applicable. Obviously, you can confirm that with your attorneys.

With all that said, my opinion would side with the persuasive posters on this thread that suggest a pro-branding option for pro-accounts that would make it look as much like everything is being handled by the photographer, but certainly giving credit and mention that Smugmug is the service providing our order fulfillment. But the clients are mine, mine, mine.

dietrichmd

Sep-26-2006, 01:04 PM

I may be a little late into the fray, but here are my two cents!

How about automatically sending the zip code to the pro so that we can get some sort of demographics as far as sales are concerned? It would be nice to be able to plug in a CSV of all the zip codes and get an idea where our sales are going. Granted, most people are local photogaphers and may not really care where the buyers come from, but as an owner of two seperate and distinct businesses, I feel it would be a welcome addition to the sales reports.

AnneMcBean

Sep-26-2006, 08:51 PM

ChrisIsaacAllen

Sep-29-2006, 10:02 PM

I couldn't agree more with a single place where all of the historical customer e-mail contact info resides.

However, what I would really like to see is a "gallery option" to force people to register their e-mail address only on "Password Secured" galleries.

I upload galleries for specific clients as well as their family and friends with password protected viewing, and would like to reach these people to let them know when I'm going to run a special on a gallery to boost sales, or when I'm going to expire it so they have a chance to order photos before I remove them from my site. I especially want to reach those potential clients that haven't ordered, but have looked.

If they have registered, they should be informed that they have consented to being updated via e-mail about your specials and promotions. In the future, if they wish to be removed from your mailing list, they are free to contact you and make that request. Most people will be happy to register if it means they can see and order the photographs of their loved ones.

I am ok with the risk of turning them off when asking them to register, because I will more than make up for that lost sale with the promotions that reach everyone who has registered. And if it is a "gallery option", you could turn it off if you didn't want it.