300D or 10D?

[wxwax]

I'm using a G3 right now. I'd like the images to have more clarity. I suspect the combination of the lenses and the sensor are conspiring to reduce the quality of the image.

In short, despite my modest skills, I'm ready to upgrade. The 300D makes the most sense. It's the next step in cost and performance. But then I see the amazing crispness and detail in the 10D shots posted around here,and I experience a strange sensation that my shrink has diagnosed as envy. I also would like the option of taking action shots, and the 300D's small buffer doesn't really allow for that.

So I'm torn. Common sense and step improvement? Or buy something over my head and hope to grow into it?

[John Macdonald]

Go with the 10D.
Mirror lockup, flash exposure compensation...
that's enough there to justify it, just bite the bullet and get the 10D.

I was out shopping and at the end of it all, I went waaaay over my budget and had to have a little clearing sale to afford what I ended up really wanting.
Things worked out for me too, and I'm happy as can be.

Go with the black camera and make it happen for yourself somehow.
In the end you won't regret it.

[fish]

Go with the 10D.
Mirror lockup, flash exposure compensation...
that's enough there to justify it, just bite the bullet and get the 10D.

I was out shopping and at the end of it all, I went waaaay over my budget and had to have a little clearing sale to afford what I ended up really wanting.
Things worked out for me too, and I'm happy as can be.

Go with the black camera and make it happen for yourself somehow.
In the end you won't regret it.
Gotta go with JMD here. Spent the week with a 10D flopping around on my shoulder, and I knew I made the right decision over the 300D. Not that the Rebel is a bad camera...in fact, I'm sure you could make it sing, but you have to ask yourself if the price difference is worth the tradeoffs. I asked that question and came to my own conclusion. Your conclusion may be different. You can't go wrong either way, really.

[wxwax]

An interesting chart I found here (http://medfmt.8k.com/third/mlu.html) demonstrates the amount of sharpness to be gained by having mirror lockup. I had no idea. But wouldn't an IS lens compensate for the absence of mirror lockup? :huh:

http://medfmt.8k.com/third/mlu1.gif

[aj2]

Go with the 10D.
Mirror lockup, flash exposure compensation...
that's enough there to justify it, just bite the bullet and get the 10D.

I was out shopping and at the end of it all, I went waaaay over my budget and had to have a little clearing sale to afford what I ended up really wanting.
Things worked out for me too, and I'm happy as can be.

Go with the black camera and make it happen for yourself somehow.
In the end you won't regret it.
What's the price difference(street)? And what is mirror lockup?

[HarveyMushman]

I also would like the option of taking action shots, and the 300D's small buffer doesn't really allow for that.

I've always assumed the buffer was for shooting a sequence of images, say 5 frames of a motorcycle passing by. True? Or is a good buffer required even for a single exposure?

[Photogbiker]

Mirror lock up is a feature on upper end SLR type cameras (like the 10D), not the smaller point and shoot range finders.

Quick definitions:

SLR: Single Lens Reflex like all of the 35mm cameras "of old". When you look in the viewfinder you are looking through a pentaprism and out the actual lens you are shooting with. Take the lens off and you see a mirror at an angle that reflects the image up through your prism to your eye. The quality of the prism determines how bright your viewfinder image is. The cheaper models (Canon Rebel) have solid acrylic prisms, the more expensive have a series of mirrors.

Rangefinder: Is the typical point and shoot where you are looking through a separate little window, not the "taking" lens. There are also high end rangefinders (Leica) so don't get hung up on that. Sometimes, depending on lens, the difference in view of the inch or less between the viewing window and the lens can make a difference in what actually gets into the picture. That is why the better rangefinders have faint lines in the window to help you frame your shot (parallax correction). This is a case where you should actually read the manual, especially if that beautiful flower close up ended up only being half a flower in the print. What you see may not be what you get.


Mirror Lock Up (now that we know what the heck the mirror is) is a great feature that lets you lock the mirror in the up position to reduce vibration, obviously only in the SLR. When the SLR takes a picture the mirro rises (slaps) and then the shutter behid it opens and closes. During medium long exposures the slight vibration of the mirror impacting on the upstroke can blur the picture. This is really only an issue from about a 15th to a 1/4 sec exposure. The vibration is very short and longer than a quarter sec it has died out and the incoming light will override any initial blurring. If the vibration lasts for 1/10th sec and you need 1 second to expose the image the first 1/10th will have no impact on the final.


Whew! Sorry about the long winded reply but I finally found a question that I knew the answer to since it was not purely digital.

[Photogbiker]

All that and I forgot the buffer question. Yes, I believe the buffer basically holds the print after you take it and before the camera writes it to the card. My Nikon p/s is nice, but in high res it is a good 5 sec. between pics. The higher end SLR cameras have a buffer that will allow 8 shots per sec and now getting up to 40 before it has to take a breather. The number and speed, of course, depends on resolution setting.

(I have pushing 30 years of film and darkroom experience, but new to digital so if I missed anything please correct, no worries here.)

Jeff

[Doh!]

One problem with the Canon 10D is availability. The camera stores around here (Michigan) have waiting lists for the bodies and the stores are only gettting one or two cameras a month. I hope this changes after the PMA show next month.

[wxwax]

I've always assumed the buffer was for shooting a sequence of images, say 5 frames of a motorcycle passing by. True? Or is a good buffer required even for a single exposure?

What you said, Tim. The buffer matters to me so I can go to an event and shoot moving objects/people, and hope that at least one in a sequence is in focus. From my perspective, I need a couple of features: quick camera response to the trigger, and the digital equivalent of a motor drive so that I can track a moving object.

The 300D makes so much sense for my skill level... but I hate to lay out a grand and not have functionality I'm pretty sure I'll want.

I guess I'm trying to get a sense of whether a camera like the 10D will meet such a need, or is overkill for my skill level and isn't really all that good at action shots anyway.

I now appreciate the value of mirror lockup, and flash compensation... but those seem to be slightly esoteric issues for my level of photography. I think. :dunno:

[wxwax]

One problem with the Canon 10D is availability. The camera stores around here (Michigan) have waiting lists for the bodies and the stores are only gettting one or two cameras a month. I hope this changes after the PMA show next month.


:nod: patch29 and I were looking for one in Atlanta last week. Not to be found in any store. Plus, one store claimed that they were going out of production. False rumor, apparently, but their scarcity makes that kind of talk believable.

The store guy opined that the 300D would kill the 10D's market. But that's the kind of thing sales folks are prone to saying when they know they can get a 300D, but aren't sure about a 10D.

[john gomes]

An interesting chart I found here (http://medfmt.8k.com/third/mlu.html) demonstrates the amount of sharpness to be gained by having mirror lockup. I had no idea. But wouldn't an IS lens compensate for the absence of mirror lockup? :huh:

http://medfmt.8k.com/third/mlu1.gif

I may be wrong, but if you are on a tripod and using and IS lens, you should disable the IS feature per the instruction manual, which would mean that
the mirrow lock up would be a definite assest.

[patch29]

I may be wrong, but if you are on a tripod and using and IS lens, you should disable the IS feature per the instruction manual,


That is how I understand using IS on a tripod, turn it off.

[patch29]

What you said, Tim. The buffer matters to me so I can go to an event and shoot moving objects/people, and hope that at least one in a sequence is in focus. From my perspective, I need a couple of features: quick camera response to the trigger, and the digital equivalent of a motor drive so that I can track a moving object.

The 300D makes so much sense for my skill level... but I hate to lay out a grand and not have functionality I'm pretty sure I'll want.

I guess I'm trying to get a sense of whether a camera like the 10D will meet such a need, or is overkill for my skill level and isn't really all that good at action shots anyway.

I now appreciate the value of mirror lockup, and flash compensation... but those seem to be slightly esoteric issues for my level of photography. I think. :dunno:

If Canon replaces the 1D in a month just go ahead and spend the extra $$ to get it and worry no more about the best camera to get, or get a deal on a good used 1D. :deal: If you did you should be set for several years and it will be much more durable than both the 300D and 10D.

[wxwax]

If Canon replaces the 1D in a month just go ahead and spend the extra $$ to get it and worry no more about the best camera to get, or get a deal on a good used 1D. :deal: If you did you should be set for several years and it will be much more durable than both the 300D and 10D.


Uh-oh, yer ramping up on me, Patch!

[fish]

I now appreciate the value of mirror lockup, and flash compensation... but those seem to be slightly esoteric issues for my level of photography. I think. :dunno: Waxy, you need to remember that you will be climbing up the learning curve quickly. You don't want to get something that you will outgrow in a matter of months. Mirror lockup is only going to matter if you plan on doing night photography (long exposures) or macro work. Flash compensation only matters if you plan to do flash photography. Eventually, most people end up doing both. On the flash comp issue, that can be resolved with a good flash unit...like the 550EX, but I still like to have that control in the camera, leaving the flash on default ETTL settings.

Think back to when you bought your GS. Did it seem like overkill for your riding skills at the time?

I'm sure the digital rebel is a fine camera, but since you are already going to be into it for a grand, why not go a little further and get a much more robust and capable body? You've already got a great P&S. If you plan to get that sexy 70-200L IS lens, you'll appreciate the extra heft of the 10D for balance.

JMHO.

http://coyfish.smugmug.com/photos/1924744-M.jpg

[hutchman]

Nice shot Fish. I take it you like the 10D. I would like to buy a 1Ds, but Hutchwife tends to put a reality check on some of my plans!:yeah:


Hutch

[fish]

Nice shot Fish. I take it you like the 10D. I would like to buy a 1Ds, but Hutchwife tends to put a reality check on some of my plans!:yeah:


Hutch

Yeah, I really really dig it. I was intimidated by the price initially, but with every shot, I become more and more convinced it was the right choice. I checked out the 1Ds too, but holy mackeral...I could get a 10D and a good motorcycle for the price. The lack of a multiplier is very tempting, as is the resolution, but I just can't justfy that price unless I can make money off of it...which I probably can't.

[John Macdonald]

Just a little note here-

Mirror lockup is also a major asset in macography.
You wanna get close?
Going to use extension tubes or reversed lenses?
Have a dedicated macro lens and plan to use it?
The up close and personal nature of macro work is another great reason to lock that mirror up before you trip the shutter.

Every slr should have that feature.

An IS lens might do something for mirror slap, but as it's originating -at- the sensor, I doubt it'll be as effective as MLO.

About IS and tripod use, I've heard from numerous photographers, amatuers and pros, that the IS works great on the tripod, and is a great thing to have on board, even in the studio. Just what I've heard though. I haven't done any comparisons with my 70-200IS yet to confirm or deny that with my own experience. Someone here should give that one a hack. I just keep the IS on and forget about it.


And Wax.
Patch is dead right about the 1D.
Just get one.
You won't regret it.
I flipflopped on the 10D/1D thing for months and went with the 1D.
The only thing I'm missing on is super long exposure stuff, but for what it's worth, I don't need that from this camera, if I'm going to go out and keep a shutter open for very long, I can do it on film with the F1 and not have to worry about it.
Much better for action shots too, and it's tough as a claw hammer.
8FPS can be really cool, especially if you want to shoot fast sporting type subjects, like motorcycles or bicycle racing.
Which reminds me, it's Cyclocross season, and I have a 300/2.8 prime lens.
Might just have to get out for the races next weekend!!

[John Macdonald]

The features of the 1D that really put me over the fence in it's favor are it's focusing system and viewfinder.
The thing focuses soooo fast. Unbelievable.
And the viewfinder is wonderful. Super bright.
And you have nine choices for the focusing screen.
I have the split image screen and run it all the time.
No metering problems at all, and I can actually see what's happening with focus, like when I'm running one of my 'special' lenses or want to see the effect of aperture on focus and DOF during DOF preview (stopdown mode...)


But really, the 300 is a great camera and you probabally wouldn't miss these kinds of features if you never got ahold of something besides the DRebel.

[wxwax]

John,

Great stuff. :thumb: I appreciate your analysis. You've got me thinking.

One question: You said the 1D doesn't have a super long exposure setting. Not sure what I'm misunderstanding. :huh: Here's what dpreview says:

Shutter speed range: Bulb, 30 - 1/16,000 sec

[John Macdonald]

The 1D does indeed have -the capability- to do long exposures (as well as bulb).
The issue with the 1D is that it sees with a different kind of eyeball. It uses a CCD instead of a CMOS sensor. The main reason for this (seems to be) the super fast 'grab and dump' of images they are able to achieve with the CCD (think 8fps).
With long exposures and the 1D come noise. I have done a fair bit of super low light and night time shooting with mine, and have been able to get mine to show this issue, but I was trying to make it happen. The sensor needs an amplifier to get the info from it's receptors into a usable message blasting out of itself and to the buffer. It gets warm with use, and with long exposures, it gets warm enough to affect the sensor's message of what color is being seen, and reports that to the image in the form of the color purple coming into the upper corners of the image (there are actually two amplifiers, one near each top corner of the sensor).
Go do a bit of web searching on 'purple corners' around the topic of the 1D.
There are ways to deal with this issue if you really need to do long exposure work with the 1D, the most popular seems to be dark frame subtraction.

This very feature kept me on the fence for quite some time.
Now having run the camera through about two thousand exposures, I don't feel as if I'm missing a thing.
Super long shutter times for things like astronomical photography or late night city scapes are best done with a CMOS camera or on film.



Hope that helps.










John,

Great stuff. :thumb: I appreciate your analysis. You've got me thinking.

One question: You said the 1D doesn't have a super long exposure setting. Not sure what I'm misunderstanding. :huh: Here's what dpreview says:

Shutter speed range: Bulb, 30 - 1/16,000 sec

[hutchman]

John,

The 1Ds has a CMOS sensor and should not have these problems with long exposures???

Am I correct or is there something else I'm missing?

Hutch

[John Macdonald]

It sees things differently too though.
And the price...

But it does have it's own noise issues.
You'd be better off doing your own homework on the 1Ds though, I have done little research on it.





John,

The 1Ds has a CMOS sensor and should not have these problems with long exposures???

Am I correct or is there something else I'm missing?

Hutch

[hutchman]

Hutchwife may put an end to the 1Ds due to the price!


Hutch

[John Macdonald]

You can buy a lot of glass for the price difference between a 10D or 1D and the 1Ds.

Unless you're shooting interiors of homes and don't want to do stitching in photoshop, there is glass out there wide enough to get your image on the sensor.

You can have the 1D and a fast 300mm lens for the same price as a 1Ds.

Or a 1D and a bag full of other good lenses.






Hutchwife may put an end to the 1Ds due to the price!


Hutch

[patch29]

Or a 1D and a bag full of other good lenses.

or a brand new KLR 650. :rofl:

If you are thinking of spending big on a Canon body, wait a month until PMA (http://pma2004.pmai.org/). Hopefully Canon will be announcing a replacement for the 1D. Hopefully it will have the performance of the 1D with added resolution and features. I would think the price would be between the 1D and 1Ds. We should know in a month.

[wxwax]

Hope that helps.


Helps a lot, thanks. I noticed that dpreview mentioned 'banding' in low-light shooting. The purple corners is a new one on me. Thanks for the explanation on CCD versus CMOS.

[jimf]

One problem with the Canon 10D is availability. The camera stores around here (Michigan) have waiting lists for the bodies and the stores are only gettting one or two cameras a month. I hope this changes after the PMA show next month.

I was just at a camera shop last week asking to play around with the 10D and Rebel to see if I can realistically justify spending the price difference. He told me the 10D was moot because they're no longer in production. It will be difficult to get them. There is a replacement due to be introduced "soon" (a month or two).

There's a waiting list for the Rebel, too, despite Canon producing them in massive quantities. I'm told it'll be a couple of weeks before I get mine.

I think I would have preferred the 10D for its superior body but the EF-S lenses should be nice (more compact) and the 10D doesn't support them. I know the 10D is also functionally superior but the only feature it has that I would have really liked is faster sequential shooting/larger shot buffer.

It's gonna be a hell of a step up from my Olympus C2500L in any case. That's been a heck of a workhorse camera but the lens system was way too limited. I'm hoping this thing puts my film SLRs entirely to rest.

jim

[patch29]

I would be slightly amazed if they replace the 10D since there is such a demand for it. You would think that Canon would like to get as much out of it as possible, but it does make since that they will upgrade it in a month if they stick to their normal release schedule for this model line.

These were past announcements from Canon (dates are fairly close PMA being the announcement location).

D30 announced Jan/Feb 2000 available end of 2000

D60 announced Feb 2002

10D announced Feb 2003

Something new for Feb 2004??? I expect (hope for) a new pro DSLR, but no reason they could also not announce a 10D replacement. They are very difficult if not impossible to find. While they are at it why not a replacement for three bodies the 10D, 1D and 1Ds? We can hope can't we?

[patch29]

The good thing is hopefully they will release a new body when they have it, rather than sitting on their laurels and selling as many as they can. So it is only good for us that they keep upgrading the technology, hopefully they can continue to drop the price as well.

[cmr164]

Yeah, I really really dig it. I was intimidated by the price initially, but with every shot, I become more and more convinced it was the right choice. I checked out the 1Ds too, but holy mackeral...I could get a 10D and a good motorcycle for the price. The lack of a multiplier is very tempting, as is the resolution, but I just can't justfy that price unless I can make money off of it...which I probably can't.
A digital with a pro body and pro features is easily worth a couple of Mpixels. The shot below was done handheld with the 100-400 IS at 1/60th f5.6

http://www.iisc.com/moorea_moon_cropped.jpg

[fish]

John,

The 1Ds has a CMOS sensor and should not have these problems with long exposures???

Am I correct or is there something else I'm missing?

Hutch
The 1Ds has a 24 x 36mm CMOS sensor. The 1D has a 28.7 x 19.1mm CCD sensor.

[fish]

I was just at a camera shop last week asking to play around with the 10D and Rebel to see if I can realistically justify spending the price difference. He told me the 10D was moot because they're no longer in production. It will be difficult to get them. There is a replacement due to be introduced "soon" (a month or two).

There's a waiting list for the Rebel, too, despite Canon producing them in massive quantities. I'm told it'll be a couple of weeks before I get mine.


Interesting. Both bhphoto and adorama say the 10D is backordered. bhphoto apparently has the digital rebel in stock (according to their website).

[patch29]

Interesting. Both bhphoto and adorama say the 10D is backordered. bhphoto apparently has the digital rebel in stock (according to their website).

I had looked at B+H and saw the same thing. They seem to be very good about their instock/out of stock listings.

[Baldy]

I had looked at B+H and saw the same thing. They seem to be very good about their instock/out of stock listings.I just spoke to a reporter who said Canon was showing an upgrade to the 10D at CES to in private that had an 8 megapixel sensor.

That would explain why they're so low on stock. They want it to sell through so they're not left with excess inventory.

[patch29]

I just spoke to a reporter who said Canon was showing an upgrade to the 10D at CES to in private that had an 8 megapixel sensor.

That would explain why they're so low on stock. They want it to sell through so they're not left with excess inventory.

That will be impressive if they announce in next month. wxwax I think we found your new camera.

[fish]

I just spoke to a reporter who said Canon was showing an upgrade to the 10D at CES to in private that had an 8 megapixel sensor.

Would that happen to be the same guy who told you BMW was going to release a K1200RT last year? :D

[wxwax]

That will be impressive if they announce in next month. wxwax I think we found your new camera.

You mean a suddenly out-of-date 10D? :yeah:

[wxwax]

In light of Baldy's revelation that the 10D will get a bump up to 8mp, here's (http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1073674311.html) an article that suddenly makes a great deal more sense.

What I take away is not that the 10D will have 8mp.... but that it might also have much noisier images. :snif: The new Sony DSC-F828 is getting slammed for chromatic abberation and noise. Apparently, it's not a great idea to cram 8 megapixels onto the same size sensor.

[patch29]

In light of Baldy's revelation that the 10D will get a bump up to 8mp, here's (http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1073674311.html) an article that suddenly makes a great deal more sense.

What I take away is not that the 10D will have 8mp.... but that it might also have much noisier images. :snif: The new Sony DSC-F828 is getting slammed for chromatic abberation and noise. Apparently, it's not a great idea to cram 8 megapixels onto the same size sensor.

They could always make a larger sensor, no more 1.6x multiplier?

[hutchman]

What's a person to do?!!?!?!?!?!?!

[patch29]

What's a person to do?!!?!?!?!?!?!

Save up? Apply for more credit? :dunno:

[hutchman]

I don't know whether to buy, sell, or hold!


On a more serious note, if the problems with noise are worse on the 8 mp sensor, I would think one would be better off with the 6 mp sensor and better glass.

Hutch

[patch29]

I don't know whether to buy, sell, or hold!


On a more serious note, if the problems with noise are worse on the 8 mp sensor, I would think one would be better off with the 6 mp sensor and better glass.

Hutch

They will be able to make an 8mp sensor that works well. It simply depends on the quality of the sensor and overall camera. The 1Ds has an 11mp sensor and works very well.

All the major camera announcements should be made at PMA, less than a month away. At this point I would hold out, unless you need a camera right not, since when they come out you will probably get a better camera for the same money or a current camera for less money. Of course just because they announce a camera it may take a few weeks to hit the shelves, but some manufacturers are getting much faster at delivering their cameras.

[wxwax]

Yeah, the delay's the thing I was thinking about, after talking to you and listening to the store folks.

I read a fascinating review of the new Sony 828 on Luminous Landscape (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sony828.shtml). He absolutely affirms that the 828 has more noise and slightly more chromatic aberration than the 10D. But he doesn't think that's a problem. He says you can get rid of the noise by using software like Noise Ninja, and that the CA is to be expected.

Amazingly, he compared the 828 to the 10D. It comes out tied! He loved the 828, bought one for himself to take on his working trip to Africa. If you're at a point where you're comfortable using software to clean-up your images, that camera sounds amazing. 8mp, RAW files, lens equivalent to a 28-200, he loves the lens... basically he accused the posters at dpreview of talking out of their a***s.

[ian408]

Speaking of noise and sensors. The new thing seems to be Foveon. This
chip collects RGB for each pixel. Right now, Sigma is the only camera
to use the Foveon.

In a normal sensor, red green and blue are collected separately in a mosaic
like pattern that is then blended together to produce the RGB. With the
Foveon, each pixel collects all three colors. In theory, Foveon should collect
100 percent RGB for each pixel (I think it works out to 25/50/25 for traditional
CMOS sensors).

How this works is kind of cool. If you're a SCUBA diver, it will make sense to
explain it as filtration. With different colors being absorbed at different depths. I'm sure there's a better and more technical explanation on the
Foveon web site. http://www.foveon.com/

There are some demo images on the web site.

I would be interested to know what process/fab they use to mfg parts
with. Otherwise the idea seems good. I guess the results will are determined
by image quality.

Ian

[wxwax]

As I understand it, Foveon sounds good in principle, but has yet to have a successful practical application. Is it because the major brands have spend way too many $$ pursuing other technologies?

[ian408]

As I understand it, Foveon sounds good in principle, but has yet to have a successful practical application. Is it because the major brands have spend way too many $$ pursuing other technologies?
I think the Sigma is a successful application. But I don't know anyone
who owns one. I hear they can be difficult to use as well.

Ian

[gopher78]

Anyone help me at decision time. I finally decided to buy a 10D. I couldn't remortgage the house and did OK buy going with a Tamron 28-300 lens. I'm certainly not a pro at this but I'm satisfied with quality of pictures (mostly action). I'm decided I need to go with a wide angle lens. I priced the canon lens and it goes for a cool $1600. Way over my head. Tamron 19-35 is available for $250. No doubt there is a difference but I'm just doing this for fun. Is there that much difference for an amatuer just having fun? Keep in mind the 10D was originally paid for by "my company". I would have choked to pay that much. On the other hand it's a beautiful camera and I don't want to completely cheapen it up either. Anyone let me know how they like the Tamrons

[wxwax]

Gopher, welcome to the site! :thumb

Here are some reviews (http://www.pcphotoreview.com/PRD_142960_3128crx.aspx) of the lens you're interested in. The third one and the others after that get into specifics. One reviewer reminds us that with the 10D's multiplier effect, the widest angle is close to 30mm.

[John R]

Photogbiker,

You should change your name from photogbiker to photogwriter. Your explanation is terrific. I am a newcomer to photography in general, and digital photography in particular. Thank you for clear, concise words that enabled me to understand the concepts referenced.

John R

[rutt]

I just spoke to a reporter who said Canon was showing an upgrade to the 10D at CES to in private that had an 8 megapixel sensor.

That would explain why they're so low on stock. They want it to sell through so they're not left with excess inventory.
In retrospect, do you think this was the 1D MII? That really isn't a 10D replacement since it will cost > 3x.

Here is what I want:


Canon (so all my lenses work)
Full frame (so everything is the same as film -- depth of field, width, everything)
Small. The 10D is the largest body I can really stand to haul around. I'd have bought a 1Ds already if it were the same size.
Resolution - I find that I'm doing pretty well with my 10D when everything else is right. But it would be nice to be able to crop more and still have great quality. Given my style, it might be a wash as I tend to shoot pretty long tele.

[rutt]

I'm using a G3 right now. I'd like the images to have more clarity. I suspect the combination of the lenses and the sensor are conspiring to reduce the quality of the image.


I hope this advice isn't too late. Save on the body and spend on the lenses. The great thing about DSLR is that your investment in lenses won't be wasted when the body becomes obsolete (and it will.) If you by the best glass, you'll still be using it 10 years from now. Well before that time, you'll see a camera with the specs of the 1Ds for the price of a 10D or less. And a year after that, you'll be able to get one used for 1/2 price.

When buying lenses, be sure to check ebay and froogle.google.com. There are often great deals. This is less true of hot digital bodies.

[wxwax]

Good advice regarding the lenses, Rutt. I suspect a lot of people do it the other way around.

I do a quibble a wee bit about what you say about the prices of the bodies dropping by half over a year. It seems as though the assigned price holds pretty well for dSLRs, and then the model gets replaced. Then the old model is no longer available new. So the best way (maybe the only way?) to get a fancy body for cheap is to buy it used. I'm seeing used 1D bodies going on eBay for a little less than $3,000. :dunno

[rutt]

I do a quibble a wee bit about what you say about the prices of the bodies dropping by half over a year. It seems as though the assigned price holds pretty well for dSLRs, and then the model gets replaced. Then the old model is no longer available new. So the best way (maybe the only way?) to get a fancy body for cheap is to buy it used. I'm seeing used 1D bodies going on eBay for a little less than $3,000. :dunno
Yes, I agree. That was my idea -- buy it used a year after it comes out. I don't know when exactly, but sometime in the next 5 years, used 1Ds's will be < $1k. If you still want it.

[hutchman]

The search now begins in earnest. I have been to the local camera store for pricing. They are at $1499 on a 10D, which is what the highly regarded online dealers are charging. A bonus is 1 year same as cash - you buy a bunch of stuff and try it, if you don't like, bring it back with no questions asked. My son lives in OR with no sales tax so he can "purchase" the camera and no tax, no shipping.

Gettin' close!

Hutch

[DoctorIt]

Good advice regarding the lenses, Rutt. I suspect a lot of people do it the other way around.

I do a quibble a wee bit about what you say about the prices of the bodies dropping by half over a year. It seems as though the assigned price holds pretty well for dSLRs, and then the model gets replaced. Then the old model is no longer available new. So the best way (maybe the only way?) to get a fancy body for cheap is to buy it used. I'm seeing used 1D bodies going on eBay for a little less than $3,000. :dunnoFunny how you started this looking at a $1000 or at most $1500 camera... Sell the GS and get the mkII!!!
:D

FWIW, the only place my Drebel has let me down is speed - which is the one thing you have mentioned in several other threads as the thing you like most in the big fancy camera. I am however a big fan of spend the money on glass. Especially with the wan Canon and Nikon are duking it out right now, I figure by the time I finish my graduate work, I'll have a couple decent lenses which I'll have scrapped up for, and there will be either used 1DmkII's or an equivalent selling for what the Drebel is now. And at that point, I'll be able to afford to just keep the Drebel as a "spare" body. Imagine that: a spare DSLR body!!! Ah, dreams...

In any case, looking forward to the pics we'll see from you with a new DSLR and that new monitor... :wink

[wxwax]

:rofl Thanks! the monitor should be here this week. I'm hopeful I can finally get the right Levels and color whn I play in photoshop. i'm just guessing right now, no confidence at all in my decisions. The camera may have to wait for a while. :(: You're right, I have a need for speed. :D I still keep an eye on ebay for 1D prices. Still hovering $3,000 for a used body. I'm hopeful they'll come down when the mkII comes out in April. :dunno

[DoctorIt]

:rofl Thanks! the monitor should be here this week. I'm hopeful I can finally get the right Levels and color whn I play in photoshop. i'm just guessing right now, no confidence at all in my decisions. The camera may have to wait for a while. :(: You're right, I have a need for speed. :D I still keep an eye on ebay for 1D prices. Still hovering $3,000 for a used body. I'm hopeful they'll come down when the mkII comes out in April. :dunnoI almost want to smack myself for saying this, but correct me if I'm wrong... you have no lens investment, yet, right? With the D2x all but out, Nikon D1x's are selling for $2400 or so on ebay right now... I know cause a friend is looking to upgrade his D1. Or, want a D1 for $800? Sure it has less mp, but its a KICKASS camera, rugged and fast as all heck.

I'm a Canon guy, as you know, but thought i'd just play a little devil's advocate. :D

[wxwax]

I almost want to smack myself for saying this, but correct me if I'm wrong... you have no lens investment, yet, right? With the D2x all but out, Nikon D1x's are selling for $2400 or so on ebay right now... I know cause a friend is looking to upgrade his D1. Or, want a D1 for $800? Sure it has less mp, but its a KICKASS camera, rugged and fast as all heck.

I'm a Canon guy, as you know, but thought i'd just play a little devil's advocate. :D


Get thee behind me, Satan! You're right, I have no glass right now. But I have my eyes firmly fixed on the 70-200 IS. And Patch's constant praise for Canon has definitely swayed me. And I crave the multi-frames per second ability of the 1D (or mkII.) Patch let me play with his 1D last year, and it stunned me.

Thanks very much for letting me know about the camera, though. I do appreciate it. :thumb

[gus]

Sid ...why isnt the Olympus E1 a contender ?

[wxwax]

The reviews are mixed. And for what if offers, I'm not sure the price is right. Also, Canon lenses get such high praise. And I've seen what the 70-200 IS can do in the hands of a good photog when shooting people (something my camera doesn't do at all well) and I'd love to have that capability.

Right now I shoot lots of static, inanimate objects. They're safe and I can try to learn about composition (lighting's a stretch for me right now). But I think I'd really enjoy shooting people, given the right gear. My G3 is slow to react to the trigger, and seems to need relatatively slow shutter speeds in anything but great lighting. As a result, I can't often shoot people. Plus, I need to get in their face, which isn't easy with strangers.

So I shoot stuff like this, from last night. Sorry, I rambled. Briefly, I wanna have a fast camera (many shots in little time so as to capture expressions and moving objects) with a top lens. I don't think I'd get that with the Olympus.

http://wxwax.smugmug.com/photos/2453542-M.jpg

[soup]

happy with my 300d/rebel

there are some things i wish it had for features, but didn't realize until i had used it awhile. things that weren't available on my film camera, now seem to be in the back of mind...

4800 frames since october, and happy as a clam with the camera.

[rutt]

I have a second 10D coming back from service in the next few weeks. I might be willing to sell it for a good price. It has been used, but it will be professionally cleaned and repaired by Canon.
Contact me if you are interested. Selling on ebay is a hassle and Iit's worth something to me to short circuit this.

[wxwax]

Hey Rutt, there's a Flea Market here where you could post a thread offering to sell your 10D. :deal

[jimf]

Sid ...why isnt the Olympus E1 a contender ?

I can tell you why I didn't go for the E1. Sensor noise. I wanted to like it since I've been reasonably happy with my C2500L. Overall the 300D seemed like a much better buy and if I were spending comparable cash the 10D and D100 were much better cameras.

Here's the sensor noise comparison from DPReview for the E1 versus the 10D:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse1/page15.asp

That's a huge difference. And look at how the 300D stacks up for a lot less money:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos300d/page13.asp

The D100 is pretty competitive at the same price point as the E1 and 10D:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond100/page16.asp

There is also not a lot of glass available for "4/3 system" cameras, especially relative to Canon's and Nikon's offerings, but there was enough for me.

[wxwax]

Now that's what I call a rational response! Good one, Jim.

[jimf]

Now that's what I call a rational response! Good one, Jim.

Hey, I was contemplating spending more money on the camera body than I'd ever spent on any single photographic purchase in my life. I spent some time looking :-).

jim