Some dSLR questions

[Red Bull]

As of now, I am currently using a Powershot A80. I would really like to get a dSLR and the Rebel is what I have my eye on. Now I am only 15 and I don't have money for anything like a 10D or anything like that, and I was wondering how much a Rebel with a wide angle and telephoto lens would cost. I would probably start out with just the normal lens, just so I can practice and get used to shotting with a dSLR. This is all based on the fact that I can earn enough money to buy the camera. I'm thinking of buying it through costco, since they have a deal with the body, lens, and battery included for a total of $950. I wouldn't need any huge memory cards (yet) since I have a 512, a 256, and a 32 MB CF card.

How much would something like this cost in the long run? I am looking into getting a job holding one of those signs that you often see people flipping around at intersections for mobile phone companies, model houses, etc. It sounds lame, but it's tax free money and some places pay up to $10/hr. Pretty good for something like that. I need all the money I can get. I'll be saving up for quite a while, though. I might also work for my dad this summer.

So I'm asking the pros:

1. How much would this cost in the long run?
2. Would there be any accessories (besides lenses) that I would need?
3. How long does it take to get used to the Rebel?

I really want to get more into photography, and I want to get more experience so I can hopefully expand my hobby and possibly make some money from it. (Yes, I still have a loooong way to go:nod)

[jwear]

I would think with the 20d on the market you wait and watch the rebels ect will come on used and bid low.The experts will have better advice on where and what but I have seen ads for used cameras. good look :thumb

[Red Bull]

I'm sure by the time I have enough money, a newer, better model will come out and the other will get cheaper. Of course, knowing me, I might just keep saving and get the newer model...:D

[jwear]

never forget Santa have you been a good boy????????????:rofl

[lynnesite]

So I'm asking the pros:

1. How much would this cost in the long run?
2. Would there be any accessories (besides lenses) that I would need?
3. How long does it take to get used to the Rebel?)

I would look for a used 10D instead! On eBay (be careful that the seller has a decent amount of feedback)

You'll want a decent UV Haze filter to leave on all the time. It takes no time at all to get used to the dSLR--you'll probably start off in program mode and explore the creative modes from there.

Lynne

[wxwax]

Hey Red,

If I might suggest buying a used camera from the Buy/Sell Forum on www.fredmiranda.com.... if you're careful, you can get a 300D for a little over $600, with the kit lens. There's quite a bit of activity right now as people sell their Rebels to get a 20D.

I assume you already have a card reader. If not, that's another $20-$30.

I suspect you'll end up wanting to buy more Flash memory. Let's say a 1GB card at around $70.

If you don't have a bag, you may end up wanting one of those. Say another $20.

A tripod really is something you should have. Say about $100... and be ready to upgrade many times, if you get into this hobby. $100 does not buy a sturdy tripod, just an affordable one.

Then we get to the lenses. :evil That's where the real money comes into it, of course. Once again, I think it's a good idea to hunt around on Fred Miranda and buy used. That's how I got almost all of my lenses, all but one like new. If you get a Rebel with the kit lens, you'll have 18-55mm covered. So logically, your next purchase would be a longer lens, maybe a zoom in the 70-200 range.

For example, this guy (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/140147) has an Image Stabilized 70-300 for $334. And this guy (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/137555) has a 100-300 for $200. Folks will argue about lens quality, but I'd think that right now, you're looking to get started, so price is a bigger issue than the niceties of glass performance.

I would strongly suggest that you *do not* buy from E-bay, if you choose to buy used equipment. There are lots of scams there, and it takes a more practiced eye than mine to detect them all. Spend a few weeks perusing Fred Miranda and you'll get sense of how it works and whether you're comfortable. And remember, you can always ask us for advice. :nod

Good luck, and keep us up to date as you decide whether or not to move forward.

Oh, and as for "gettting used" to the Rebel... well, that depends entirely upon how often you use it! :evil

[Red Bull]

I've been reading tons of reviews and I have some more questions...

1. I keep hearing about the image buffer being only 4 images. What exactly is an image buffer and what does it do?

2. I've read some complaints about it having no mirror lockup. What is it and does it really affect the camera that much?

3. I heard about no AF mode control. So I ask again, does it really effect the camera that much?

4. "No Al Servo mode" What is Al Servo mode and how often would one use it?

5. What does "No aperature or shutter bracketing" mean?

I actually spent the whole day yesterday comparing this camera to the 10D and thiking of which one I should go for. I'm leaning towards the 300D. I will probably go to a photography shop that has both of these cameras so I can look at each one of them in person and compare them. Now by the time I have gotten enough money to buy either one of these cameras, I'm thinking that there will be an "upped" version of the 300D which will have more features. I guess I will have to wait and see.

[miketaylor01]

Sid, I have to disagree with you on staying away from ebay. I have bought alot of stuff through ebay, including my SD9 and my Sigma 70-200 both within the last month. There are always great deals to be had on there. But I do have to agree on there being alot of scams on ebay. And yes I will also agree that a practiced eye is needed to sort the legitimate sales from the scams. but that is what this forum is for. If you see something you want to buy but arent sure about the value of the deal or the legitimacy just post here and let us all help you try to figure it out. Thats the great thing about this place. Maybe I have just been lucky but I have never been burned on ebay:dunno. I will say that I do my research on everything that I buy there.
Good luck with your search for a new cam redbull. Like I said we are all here to help and will do our best to help you make an informed decision. And to keep you all from getting worried im not even going to bring up the Sigma possibilities, oops I think I just did...:rofl I know how hard the decision is cause I just went through the same thing

[Red Bull]

Can anybody please answer some of the questions I've asked in my above post? It would be really helpful.

Also, today I picked up a job permit today at school. :deal Now I just have to go and look around and find a place that has any spots open. :D

[cletus]

1. I keep hearing about the image buffer being only 4 images. What exactly is an image buffer and what does it do?
The image buffer is the memory built into the camera that holds your pictures while they are being written to the Compact Flash card. The camera can take pictures faster than it can write to the Compact Flash cards (a limitation of the card not the camera) so there is some buffer memory built into the camera. That way you can snap off several images in a row. Otherwise you'd have to wait for a couple seconds between pictures while each picture was written to CF. Unless you're planning on doing a lot of sports or wildlife shooting, I wouldn't wory about the image buffer being limited to 4 pictures.

2. I've read some complaints about it having no mirror lockup. What is it and does it really affect the camera that much?
SLR cameras have mirror that takes image from the lens and bounces it up into the viewfinder. One of the things that happens when you press the shutter release is the mirror swings up out of the way so the image from the lens will strike the CCD (or film).

The motion of the mirror can introduce small vibrations into the camera which can blur pictures taken with long exposure times. Mirror lock-up lets you swing the mirror up out of the way before you press the shutter release, reducing the vibrations. - This is another feature that is nice, but it is not critical.

3. I heard about no AF mode control. So I ask again, does it really effect the camera that much? I'm not a Canon guy so I'm unable to comment on this one.

4. "No Al Servo mode" What is Al Servo mode and how often would one use it? I'll leave this one up for the Canon folks also.

5. What does "No aperature or shutter bracketing" mean? This might mean a couple different (but closely related) things. It probably means that when in Aperature Priority Mode (where you pick the aperature and the camera picks the shutter speed) or Shutter Priority Mode (you pick the shutter speed, the camera picks the aperature) you do not have bracketing ability. Bracketing in this sense would be making a series of different exposures of the same image. For example a three shot bracket might underexpose one shot, normally expose one shot, and overexpose the third shot. Bracketing is a tool for trying to deal with a scenes with complex lighting. Again, it's a feature you can live without.

[landrum]

If you go with the Rebel, DEFINATELY buy from Costco!!! They return anything, anytime. Just keep your box and receipt to make sure you get what you paid for it. I have purchased 5 cameras thru them, returning each one to upgrade to the next! It's the safest way to try out cameras because there is absolutely NO RISK! I have had a couple that I thought would be great just to find out that they sucked. Plus you can start out with what you can afford, and then just bump up a step as you save more money. That is basically what I have been doing...creating a working camera fund.

If only they carried the 20D...:lust Oh well, maybe by the time I can afford it they will.

[tmlphoto]

AI servo mode is an automatic focusing mode that basically tracks the subject once it has locked onto it. It is useful for moving subjects. This is also not critical. A Canon camera without an AF mode control would be one with only one Auto Focus mode that isn't selectable. The 10D has three AF modes, but I tend to use the basic AF mode almost exclusively. I haven't really done any action shots though.

[FreeUps]

I really like your technique Landrum. How long do you hold the camera for before returning? Thats really cool.

I've always thought of doing that, but in Manhattan I can't find places with such simple return policies like wal-mart/sams/costco.

Lucky lucky! :wink

[cmr164]

I really like your technique Landrum. How long do you hold the camera for before returning? Thats really cool.

I've always thought of doing that, but in Manhattan I can't find places with such simple return policies like wal-mart/sams/costco.

Lucky lucky! :wink
You don't find it abusive or dishonest? I took the post as a joke. If it is real then I am somewhat horrified. Yes I will return things that don't work as expected or are unexpectedly unsuitable but you know that in a few days use. Abusing a vendor in the way stated is theft. Certainly morally and likely criminally also.

[FreeUps]

Hahaaaa. I dunno charles. Sounds like a fine plan to me, but as I said, I could never pull it off around this area, so I've got not moral issues to worry about.

I guess you could call it theft, it kinda depends on what your excuse is for returning it. If it goes back to the manufacturer cause its "defective" then thats not cool, if its 29 days old and goes right back out to another customer, then thats not very cool either. So yea, I guess you're right, not a very nice strategy either way. hehe.
:D :dunno

[landrum]

You don't find it abusive or dishonest? I took the post as a joke. If it is real then I am somewhat horrified. Yes I will return things that don't work as expected or are unexpectedly unsuitable but you know that in a few days use. Abusing a vendor in the way stated is theft. Certainly morally and likely criminally also.No, I am not dishonest or a thief!!! How DARE you call me such!!!!!

If you are a member of Costco, then you know that they have a great return policy. It is the safest way to buy anything, because you can always return it (they even tell you so!!!) Of all the cameras I had, only one was to really upgrade, the others I was not happy with due to performance anyway. They don't care what the reason is. The merchandise is NOT resold. Don't you start judging me before you know what you are talking about!!! :nono

And Freeups...Walmart and Sams do not return anything..even with a reciept!

[mercphoto]

No, I am not dishonest or a thief!!! How DARE you call me such!!!!! Don't you start judging me before you know what you are talking about!!! :nono

I dunno. Still sounds like you are getting and using a product and not paying for it in the end. Just because they let you do that, does it mean its morally right to do so? SOMEBODY has to pay for that camera, correct? If its not you, then its Costco. And if its them, where do you think that money comes from? It comes from extra built-in profit in the cost of goods sold, of course.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, or in this case a free camera.

Sorry, I feel very strongly about this.

[cmr164]

No, I am not dishonest or a thief!!! How DARE you call me such!!!!!

If you are a member of Costco, then you know that they have a great return policy. It is the safest way to buy anything, because you can always return it (they even tell you so!!!) Of all the cameras I had, only one was to really upgrade, the others I was not happy with due to performance anyway. They don't care what the reason is. The merchandise is NOT resold. Don't you start judging me before you know what you are talking about!!! :nono

And Freeups...Walmart and Sams do not return anything..even with a reciept!
Tell you what, let me tell Costco your real name and address and a list of the cameras that you have done this with and we will let them decide if you are a thief. I already decided.

[mercphoto]

Tell you what, lets say I buy a photograph from you. A 4x6 of a waterfall you took. I hang it proudly on my living room wall. After 2 months I decide I want the 8x10 instead. Nothing wrong with the 4x6 at all, but I ask you to take it back, for a full refund, and sell me an 8x10. A few months later you have a picture of a different waterfall and I want a change of decor. Nothing wrong with the 8x10, but I ask you to take it back and sell me the other one. A few months later I decide I'm tired of photographs and want an oil painting instead, so I ask you to take it back and I go buy a painting from someone else.

In that time I have had three of your photographs in my possession and you have lost money in the process. I simply wanted a free lunch.

I'll ask, who was it that paid for all those cameras you used, because it wasn't you. But it was someone. Someone had to pay for them.

[Sam]

Tell you what, let me tell Costco your real name and address and a list of the cameras that you have done this with and we will let them decide if you are a thief. I already decided.

Costco has a very liberal return policy, which it is well thought out. This is part of their marketing stratagy. They sell in huge quantities, in part due to this policy. From a statistical view point Costco is way ahead.

As an example, Landrum may have returned several cameras, but she has probably purchased a lot of other items not returned. This policy gives the Costco customer the confidence to buy anything, and most items are not returned.

Landrum has done nothing illegal, and Costco already has her name, adress and a list of all puchases made. They know exactly what she has purchased, when it was purchased, and if is was returned.

You need to know what your talking about before you call someone a thief.

Sam

[mercphoto]

Costco has a very liberal return policy, which it is well thought out. This is part of their marketing stratagy.

As an example, Landrum may have returned several cameras, but she has probably purchased a lot of other items not returned. This policy gives the Costco customer the confidence to buy anything, and most items are not returned.

Landrum has done nothing illegal... You need to know what your talking about before you call someone a thief.


Well, I didn't call her a thief, but I'll address the other issues. I still contend that SOMEONE needs to have paid for those cameras. Correct?

I also never said she did anything illegal, just unethical. Taking advantage of a return policy that makes it easy to return defective items is no excuse to basically "rent" items for free. To simply say "most items are not returned" is no excuse to be "one of the few".

[Red Bull]

Well also think of this. The camera gets bought, Costco gets the money. Then when it is returned, Costco loses that money, but it is sent back, re-packaged, and re-sold. (if it isn't defective). When they re-sell it, more than likely SOMEONE will buy it and not return it, and Costco gets their money. If it isn't sold in the store then it is put online where tons of people buy their stuff from. So technically, it isn't stealing since Costco does get their money.:nod

So back on topic, can anybody tell me how their Rebel has performed? So far I have $920 more to go! Maybe I can think of other creative ways to make money.:rollI've been wanting to go up to the shopping center to find out about sign holding jobs, but it's been raining here (rain...in San Diego! *gasp!*) I'll find out about it as soon as possible because I want to start saving up!

[mercphoto]

Well also think of this. The camera gets bought, Costco gets the money. Then when it is returned, Costco loses that money, but it is sent back, re-packaged, and re-sold. (if it isn't defective). When they re-sell it, more than likely SOMEONE will buy it and not return it, and Costco gets their money. If it isn't sold in the store then it is put online where tons of people buy their stuff from. So technically, it isn't stealing since Costco does get their money.:nod

This is called rationalization. The description above is also not accurate from an economic standpoint. I'm giving up on trying to instill some ethics and morals in those lacking. Next thing someone will try to tell me that Napster was not stealing either.

So back on topic, can anybody tell me how their Rebel has performed?

Very good image quality when used within its limitations. Doesn't like to track moving objects very well with auto focus. Auto-white-balance doesn't work reliably. Small burst buffer and writes to cards slowly. If this doesn't matter to you, or if you can work around them, the camera is quite nice.

[Sam]

Well, I didn't call her a thief, but I'll address the other issues. I still contend that SOMEONE needs to have paid for those cameras. Correct?

YES! We pay for all the returns, we pay for all the warranties, we pay for all shoplifting, and loss. We pay for all the adds, we pay for all the taxes, we pay for everything! Returns are only a small part of the overall cost.

I also never said she did anything illegal, just unethical. Taking advantage of a return policy that makes it easy to return defective items is no excuse to basically "rent" items for free. To simply say "most items are not returned" is no excuse to be "one of the few".
Costco offers this return policy. They will tell you flat out...you can return it for any (ANY!) reason. (period)

They know there will some who (abuse / push / maximize) this policy. They don't care, it's factored in. Having this policy is good for their business.

While I, and you, may not take full advantage of this return policy, they know, and expect others will. How then if the seller states the return policy, and the buyer acts in accordance with this policy is it unethical?

Sam

[mercphoto]

While I, and you, may not take full advantage of this return policy, they know, and expect others will. How then if the seller states the return policy, and the buyer acts in accordance with this policy is it unethical?

So what you are tyring to say is that the return policy is not meant as an easy, painless way for people to return defective merchandise, but also as a means for people to rent items for free. I simply do not believe that to be the case. (and I am a CostCo member) Just because the policy ALLOWS someone to do so does not mean they WANT people to do so, and is not an excuse to take advantage of that policy in this manner. "I'm doing this because I can". Sounds like Bill Clinton...

[ian408]

REI has a similar policy. They want you to be happy with your purchase.
Whatever the reason. This is an admirable policy but I don't think they
intend it as a rent-to-own type of a deal.

Eventually, this has to cost someone money. Fry's Electronics used to simply
re-wrap it (with shrink wrap too) and put it back on the shelves as "new". That
is until customers figured it out and now they mark everything that's been
returned.

Same warranty as the new stuff--but I usually take the large number of returns
as some measure of the products worthiness :D I also will not knowingly buy
something that's been returned unless there is some markdown (preferring
not to make a second trip to return something).

It is for this reason that I do buy from REI and Fry's. Because if something's
wrong, they will take the item back--no questions asked. By the same token,
I try not to take advantage (over and above defective item/not meeting the
need) of that policy.


ian

[MazerRakhm]

So back on topic, can anybody tell me how their Rebel has performed? So far I have $920 more to go! Maybe I can think of other creative ways to make money.:rollI've been wanting to go up to the shopping center to find out about sign holding jobs, but it's been raining here (rain...in San Diego! *gasp!*) I'll find out about it as soon as possible because I want to start saving up!

I've had my DRebel since may, taken just over 3,000 pictures with it so far. I recently stared using it to shoot HS football games in addition to wildlife/zoo/still pictures and have had no problems with it at all and find it adequate for my needs thus far. It may not have the same features of say the new 20D, but it also doesn't have the price tag of the bigger camera also.

I think the best part since I am still a beginning amateur is that I can use all of the EOS lenses on the camera, still take quality pictures and be able keep and use the same lenses if and when I do decide to upgrade camera bodies.

Remember, a better camera does not guarantee better pictures just makes it easier for an experienced photographer to take them. Relatively speaking, a good photographer will walk away with a good picture no matter what camera you give them.

[Red Bull]

Well I just got a job for holding the sign for T-Mobile. THe guy at CIngular said he would call me once he knows what his other 2 people are doing. Time to save up! Only $910 to go...

[wxwax]

Well I just got a job for holding the sign for T-Mobile. THe guy at CIngular said he would call me once he knows what his other 2 people are doing. Time to save up! Only $910 to go...
:clap Way to go, Red Bull. Good luck saving up the cash.

[wxwax]

Tell you what, let me tell Costco your real name and address and a list of the cameras that you have done this with and we will let them decide if you are a thief. I already decided.

:nono Waaay out of bounds. Cut it out.

[cmr164]

:nono Waaay out of bounds. Cut it out.
Sid. We differ here. I think the behavior described is extremely reprehensible and probably illegal. If I am wrong what I suggest would do no harm. If I am right then you are out of line to discourage reporting it.

[wxwax]

Sid. We differ here. I think the behavior described is extremely reprehensible and probably illegal. If I am wrong what I suggest would do no harm. If I am right then you are out of line to discourage reporting it.
Charles, where we differ is in the language you used, specifically the accusation. That is what is out of bounds.

[cmr164]

Charles, where we differ is in the language you used, specifically the accusation. That is what is out of bounds. I have purchased 5 cameras thru them, returning each one to upgrade to the next!
Criminal fraud? Thievery? What words would you use? Answer that honestly please. And why after this subject had been dormant did you decide to revive it?

[ian408]

Well I just got a job for holding the sign for T-Mobile. THe guy at CIngular said he would call me once he knows what his other 2 people are doing. Time to save up! Only $910 to go...
Good work! Best of luck with the savings plan!

Ian

[wxwax]

Criminal fraud? Thievery? What words would you use? Answer that honestly please. And why after this subject had been dormant did you decide to revive it?
Because I've been out of town.

And you called some a thief. That's not something consistent with dgrin. Find another forum to make posts like that, don't do it here.

[cmr164]

Because I've been out of town.

And you called some a thief. That's not something consistent with dgrin. Find another forum to make posts like that, don't do it here. How do you characterize the behavior? You are being evasive which makes me think you agree. Someone comes on dgrin and not only brags about the behavior but solicits others to do it and *you* pick on me. :rofl

[wxwax]

How do you characterize the behavior? You are being evasive which makes me think you agree. Someone comes on dgrin and not only brags about the behavior but solicits others to do it and *you* pick on me. :rofl
We'll take this offline Charles.

[Andy]

costco is a business, they have a $21 billion market capitalization (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=COST&d=t). they have an executive team (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=COST) that makes the decisions on how the company is run, and the policies they'll do business under. in a capitialist society (which we have have in the u.s. last time i checked), the market will decide if what costco is doing is smart or not smart, from a business standpoint.

to shop at costco, one must provide all sorts of personal information. costco knows the details of every purchase, every transaction made by its' membership. there's no need to "report real name and address" to them, as they already have it. if costco has a problem with a member's use of their liberal return policies, they'll handle it. and if they don't have a problem, why should anybody?

btw, i've had the same accused of me. i buy my lenses at b&h whenever possible, becuase they have a 14-day no questions asked return policy. i've returned lenses (15mmm canon fisheye comes to mind) simply becuase after trying it out for a week, i decided it wasn't for me. wrong? nope. again, b&h is a business. if they can't make profits with their policies, then quite simply, they'll change their policies. and, this policy is why i buy exclusively from b&h.

to call someone a thief for using a policy by a public company that's available to anyone who shops at costco, that's what i find reprehensible and morally wrong. furthermore, it's totally out of bounds with regard to the spirit of this online community.

[cmr164]

...

btw, i've had the same accused of me. i buy my lenses at b&h whenever possible, becuase they have a 14-day no questions asked return policy. i've returned lenses (15mmm canon fisheye comes to mind) simply becuase after trying it out for a week, i decided it wasn't for me. wrong? nope. again, b&h is a business. if they can't make profits with their policies, then quite simply, they'll change their policies. and, this policy is why i buy exclusively from b&h.

to call someone a thief for using a policy by a public company that's available to anyone who shops at costco, that's what i find reprehensible and morally wrong. furthermore, it's totally out of bounds with regard to the spirit of this online community.
Using a return policy in the way indicated is far far different than the way that you or I use return policies. I *might* find some of your behavior reprehensible but so far as I know, nothing you have done is at the level of the behavior we are discussing. As for the good of the site and the online community, INHO it would have been far better served by a moderator clamping down on the post advocating the behavior discussed. Heck delete the entire thread and reduce the liability that is being created by having actual site insiders on record as defending the behavior.

[Sam]

costco is a business, they have a $21 billion market capitalization (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=COST&d=t). they have an executive team (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=COST) that makes the decisions on how the company is run, and the policies they'll do business under. in a capitialist society (which we have have in the u.s. last time i checked), the market will decide if what costco is doing is smart or not smart, from a business standpoint.

to shop at costco, one must provide all sorts of personal information. costco knows the details of every purchase, every transaction made by its' membership. there's no need to "report real name and address" to them, as they already have it. if costco has a problem with a member's use of their liberal return policies, they'll handle it. and if they don't have a problem, why should anybody?

btw, i've had the same accused of me. i buy my lenses at b&h whenever possible, becuase they have a 14-day no questions asked return policy. i've returned lenses (15mmm canon fisheye comes to mind) simply becuase after trying it out for a week, i decided it wasn't for me. wrong? nope. again, b&h is a business. if they can't make profits with their policies, then quite simply, they'll change their policies. and, this policy is why i buy exclusively from b&h.

to call someone a thief for using a policy by a public company that's available to anyone who shops at costco, that's what i find reprehensible and morally wrong. furthermore, it's totally out of bounds with regard to the spirit of this online community.
Andy,

Very well said.

Now, I do have a question with reguard to B&H's return policy. For example, what did they do with that 15mm lens you returned? Was it sent back to Canon, or resold as new?

Thanks,

Sam

[Andy]

Using a return policy in the way indicated is far far different than the way that you or I use return policies. I *might* find some of your behavior reprehensible but so far as I know, nothing you have done is at the level of the behavior we are discussing. As for the good of the site and the online community, INHO it would have been far better served by a moderator clamping down on the post advocating the behavior discussed. Heck delete the entire thread and reduce the liability that is being created by having actual site insiders on record as defending the behavior.

charles, we differ here, too. you have your opinion... that's cool. i will continue to use favorable (to me) business policies when i shop. if the business owner can't make money, they'll change their policies.

there's nothing wrong with landrum's behavior. if there was, i'm sure the local cops would be on top of it. you are certainly entitled to your opinion - but you've got to admit, the word you used to describe landrum was way ott. disagree all you want with someone, and defend your position vigorously, but please, do so in a civil and friendly tone.

lol on the "liablility?" that's a riot :lol3

[mercphoto]

there's nothing wrong with landrum's behavior. if there was, i'm sure the local cops would be on top of it.

Andy, that attitude is disturbing to me. You are saying that as long as it isn't illegal it isn't wrong. I disagree. There is a difference between moral and legal behavior. It isn't illegal for me to hurt someone's feelings, but it is wrong for me to do so. See the point?

Its not that what she did is illegal, its that is is unethical.

[Andy]

Andy, that attitude is disturbing to me. You are saying that as long as it isn't illegal it isn't wrong. I disagree. There is a difference between moral and legal behavior. It isn't illegal for me to hurt someone's feelings, but it is wrong for me to do so. See the point?

Its not that what she did is illegal, its that is is unethical.

merc,

what's disturbing to me, is that you guys are beating on someone who is abiding by the policies of a company. it's up to the company to decide what their policies are, and to a degree, you and i, also. we can choose to do business there, or not, based on our feelings about the policy. but, we shouldn't condemn anyone for legitimately using the policies to their advantage.

i'm a big believer in the free market economy - and the market will ultimately dictate whether costco decides that the policy is advantageous to them or not.

i don't stand in judgement of others in a case like this. on their website (http://www.costco.com) their terms and conditions are quite clear.

http://patch29.smugmug.com/photos/10285857-Ti.gif

[mercphoto]

what's disturbing to me, is that you guys are beating on someone who is abiding by the policies of a company.

Point taken. I over-reacted. I saw it as yet another instance in our society where people don't think they have to pay for anything anymore. Free music, free software, they'll ask for photographs for free, free health care, the list goes on. And returning a camera, not because it is defective but because you simply wanted a new one, just doesn't set well with me.

I'm all for free markets myself, Andy. I'm a die-hard capitalist. But I'm also a big believer in responsibility and respect, and that goes both directions. CostCo is trying to make lives easier on their customers and show us respect by not asking questions when we return something. I beleive we should return the favor and not take advantage of such policies, because when abused those policies will need to be adjusted. I'd rather not see that happen.

There are consequences to actions, and there are no free lunches, and that was the entire point I was trying to get at. That's why I believe that the actions taken, while legal, were still "wrong".

[Andy]

no worries, merc :D

my econ prof in college always said this: tinfl - there is no free lunch

in this case, the cost of lunch ultimately could be that costco decides that they can't afford to continue this policy.

Point taken. I over-reacted. I saw it as yet another instance in our society where people don't think they have to pay for anything anymore. Free music, free software, they'll ask for photographs for free, free health care, the list goes on. And returning a camera, not because it is defective but because you simply wanted a new one, just doesn't set well with me.

I'm all for free markets myself, Andy. I'm a die-hard capitalist. But I'm also a big believer in responsibility and respect, and that goes both directions. CostCo is trying to make lives easier on their customers and show us respect by not asking questions when we return something. I beleive we should return the favor and not take advantage of such policies, because when abused those policies will need to be adjusted. I'd rather not see that happen.

There are consequences to actions, and there are no free lunches, and that was the entire point I was trying to get at. That's why I believe that the actions taken, while legal, were still "wrong".

[Red Bull]

Update: I've been holding the sign and so far I have....$897.50 to go!:rofl

I've been recycling cans and bottles to make some extra money, but it's gonna take quite a few cans to get a lot. It's alright, though...I drink a lot of soda and water bottles.:D

-Steve

[tmlphoto]

Update: I've been holding the sign and so far I have....$897.50 to go!:rofl

I've been recycling cans and bottles to make some extra money, but it's gonna take quite a few cans to get a lot. It's alright, though...I drink a lot of soda and water bottles.:D

-Steve
Keep working toward your goal and I'm sure you will be sucessful.

[wxwax]

Update: I've been holding the sign and so far I have....$897.50 to go!:rofl

I've been recycling cans and bottles to make some extra money, but it's gonna take quite a few cans to get a lot. It's alright, though...I drink a lot of soda and water bottles.:D

-Steve

Good luck, mate. There's the old cliche that nothing good comes easy - if you stick with it, you're gonna savor that camera!

[cletus]

Good luck, mate. There's the old cliche that nothing good comes easy - if you stick with it, you're gonna savor that camera!
:nod

Keep up the good work Steve!

[Red Bull]

Update time!

Ok, so I still have $750 to go until the camera. I may get a job permit and work at Jack in the Box to make some more money (I live within walking distance of one). I haven't been holding the sign for a while since my mini disc player broke and that's what I listened to while I was holding the sign. I'm also sick right now, so I don't feel like standing on the corner with a sore throat and coughing all the time. I'll update again if I decide to work at Jack in the Box.

I made $40 today helping my dad with some work he is doing in the side yard. I mixed about ten 60 pound bags of cement and did some other things.

I've noticed some price drops on the 300D. Hopefully by the time I make enough money, there will be a newer version.:D

[ian408]

Keep up the hard work. I know it takes a while to get there but
when you do, it'll be worth it.

Ian

[MainFragger]

Andy, that attitude is disturbing to me. You are saying that as long as it isn't illegal it isn't wrong. I disagree. There is a difference between moral and legal behavior. It isn't illegal for me to hurt someone's feelings, but it is wrong for me to do so. See the point?

Its not that what she did is illegal, its that is is unethical.
But businesses run off of what is legal, not ethical. There are just as many legal situations that benfit business that are unethical to the consumer. I GUARANTEE you that the owners and lawyers of that business lose no sleep over it. The pendulum swings both ways.

And personally, I think getting stuck with something that you don't like or want does sometimes take a little time to establish, and more than once I have returned stuff on the very last day of the return policy. If I don't put an product through its paces to find out of it is for me...then shame on me. If I do that, generally, I still would have liked more time to work with it to make sure it isn't me that is the problem, but prefer to return it within the return policy.

I agree that in the end, a store ENFORCES their policies..even when it screws them. That is part of their business. And I can attest to the fact that when stores do this for me, and bend over backwards...anything I may have STOLEN from then gets bought back 5 times over. In business you sometimes turn the cheek on losing money long enough to make even more money later. Its called reelin' them in..

I'll take it one step further. I work for a manufacturer of electronics doing tech support. Often people don't get manuals from open boxes or other accessories. Technically, we don't owe them a thing because in most cases those open boxes were discounted for missing that stuff, or because it was with the unit at ship time, and its missing because the dealer lost it. At that point, its up to the store or the customer to pay for the replacement of those parts/accessories, and the dealer "usually" chooses not to do it, citing the reduced price as the reason (which may or may not cover the cost of the missing accessory). For some of the cheaper accessories..even though we have EVERY right to say, "sorry, buy it...", we will send them for free to the customer anyway, because for the few bucks it costs us to cover a manual or power cord, we can satisfy a customer that will spend another $100-$1000 on our electronics in the future. And I have been at my company for 10 years, and have actually developed friendships with recurring callers that have been calling over that time for questions, support, warranty coverage, and accessory purchases. So I KNOW this works!

MainFragger

[GREAPER]

I have been ignoring this thread, but I do want to throw a work in.

A store has a return policy that I would hope is there to encourage you to buy with confidence, not so that you can upgrade your product once a year without ever paying more than the cost of the expensive unit. Those who say there is nothing wrong with the practice because it fits the stores policy and if they lose money they will change the policy are missing a point. I feel the policy is there to protect you from buying a low quality product and being stuck with it. In the end... they will change the policy, and those consumers who are just trying to return a defective product will be the ones to pay the price.

A few years back there were large numbers of people "Buying" camcorders to take on their vacation. When they returned from vacation, they returned the item and got their money back. They had the tapes and paid nothing. They could repeat this process forever, always have a camcorder when they wanted one and never actually pay for it. People did this with laptop computers and cameras as well. Someone payed for those camcorders, thats right. The store passed the loss on to the rest of the consumers. I paid for it every time I bought DVDs or Blank CDs or ink for my printer.

Now most stores have a short time limit on these items and a policy that they will only exchange it for the SAME item. Now you pay for this abusive use of the previous return policy by having less options when you are truly not happy with a product.

I think it is legal, but I also think it is an abuse of a policy and in the end, the rest of us pay for the camera, no matter how you slice it. If you dont mind buying other folks camera's, then by all means spread the word.

I have enough trouble actually paying for my own.

[MainFragger]

I've been thinking about this, and well, I agree that returning the unit almost a year later for an upgrade is not right in and of itself. But at the same time, I think manufacturers should support current users by offering cheaper than buying a whole new camera upgrade paths to begin with. Many manufacturers do not do this. So, in the long run, what he is doing is poetic justice. Because when push comes to shove, he is just balancing the equation to keep his piece of the pie fresh.
As far as the cost coming back to us. I doubt it. Most dealers make such a high per centage of profit on certain items, that they can truly sell the unit for 40% less, and not take a loss. So the occasional person doing what he is doing is not even going to dent the market. Trust me, if it got bad enough that it would start to effect pricing, then they'd change the policy before they changed the pricing. Right now, the competition on items is tight enough, that manufacturers are often following the dealers request to make units 5-20 cents cheaper per unit so they can pass those savings on to the customer (5 cents cheaper to them, translates to about $10 cheaper for you). The dealers are not looking to boost the price of items. Especially not a store like Costco. If push comes to shove, many stores now sell stuff over e-bay, and still make some good money selling it as a used or reconditioned item at just a little above their cost price.

MainFragger

[Red Bull]

I haven't updated in quite a while, but I still have $500 to go. Half way there. That electronics show in Las Vegas is soon, isn't it? Don't they usually release new models soon after that show? Maybe there will be a new model of the 300D.

I've been going to work with my dad sometimes on the weekend and doinga bit of work to make some money. I got my iPod for Christmas, so I an do sign holding, but the only problem is it gets dark too early here to stay out for very long.