20D technical question

[winger]

Ok so anyone that knows me knows I shoot alot.

So I was noticing that the 20d shutter is said to have a life of approx 100,000 shots.

so what does that mean when you reach 100,000 (yes I realise at 100,000 it will not magically disappear).

is it the kind of thing where you could send the camera in for a new shutter, maybe a little tune up and then you are good to go, or when the camera calls it quits are we talking a whole new body.

Im just trying to figure out what to expect.

[DoctorIt]

You can get a new shutter. I would think that with the amount you shoot, a good Canon tune-up is in order soon. New shutter isn't cheap, unfortunately, but less than a new 20D.

[cmason]

Ok so anyone that knows me knows I shoot alot.

So I was noticing that the 20d shutter is said to have a life of approx 100,000 shots.

so what does that mean when you reach 100,000 (yes I realise at 100,000 it will not magically disappear).

is it the kind of thing where you could send the camera in for a new shutter, maybe a little tune up and then you are good to go, or when the camera calls it quits are we talking a whole new body.

Im just trying to figure out what to expect.

I would imagine a new body. I have never heard of a shutter-ectomy before. But unless you take an enourmous number of pictures in a short time span, other bits of the camera will be in need of repair too.

If you take 60 pics a week, that will be 32 yrs before you need to replace it. Using the camera weekly for 32 years will add a bit of wear. Even if you take 100 pics a day, in the three year life span of the shutter, that is alot of handling, in and out of bags, etc.

So I suspect, you would not be interested in simply replacing the shutter, even if it could be done.

[DoctorIt]

I have never heard of a shutter-ectomy before.Doesn't mean they don't exist. Very, very common. :nod

100 shots a week? Are you kidding? That's 1 HOUR for Winger! :lol3

[DoctorIt]

BTW, Winger, I did some searching FOR you. Check out this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=17306396

In summary (I know reading is hard):

-100,000 clicks life
-$150-250 to replace shutter
-but at that point, it could be a sensor issue as well
-sensor is $800 = so get a new body!

[winger]

hmmm yeah I have been thinking about the new body issue too. But I bought the 20d right when it came out. I dont want to buy another 20d if its going to be come obsolute (and well since I am trying to actually have the money to pay for all my toys now rather than charging it would be at least a month or too before I could purchase anything).

If I could I would love to get another Mark II but I cant really afford those......

I also think the upgrades on the 5D arent really what I need, since I do sports and honestly the 1.6 crop factor is working in my favor in terms of getting more distance out of my lenses.

In terms of what I shoot....I shoot proably about 150-250 shots per game, average of 5 games a week. I have owned the 20d since sept 04, plus when I first got it I proably shot 400-500 shots a games but I have gotten alot smarter about shooting and now I get a higher yield, better shots off of less shots.

So I am certain my shutter has proably already seen close to 100,000 accuations.

What also brings up this question is my custom white balance is freaking out (yes yes I know learn how to process raw....but in all honest I am already looking into classes for the summer because i will be done with this silly masters) so anyways typically I have custome white blanace hockey off the home jerseys. But lately when I do what I have always been doing, the photos that come up after I custom white balance come up blue......

So I have (well hockey home games are over) I instead went and custom balanced off an older image. I dunno it seemed to work and hoops I have been just using the auto and being forced to deal with the "hot" tones.

I tried reseting the camera....didnt seem to do much (and totally threw me off next game because i forgot to fix all my settins back)

The other thing is my photos just dont seem as sharp as they should be/ used to be. I am all ready to blame the lenses, but does the sensor degrade over time.
I have been shooting hoops with my 50 because the lack of sharp photos was driving me insane. It was never really a problem before.

Outside it doesnt seem to be as much of a problem....but I am still not getting the sharp photos that I got before my brief adventure with the Mark II or even this fall.

So is my 20D dying????
Would a tune up help or is it simply not cost effective overall?

Im going to read eriks link now so he doesnt think I dont love him.

[jimf]

I would imagine a new body. I have never heard of a shutter-ectomy before.

Well, if you do consumer-level shooting you would probably never need one but prolific photographers can easily break 10k frames per year -- and pros will probably not be making much money if they don't exceed that by quite a bit.

Higher end cameras are designed with serviceability of moving parts like the shutter in mind, but a lot of consumer equipment is not and tends to have less reliable components to boot.

Even so, it may be possible to service even supposedly "un-serviceable" shutters. The EOS-300D's shutter, for instance, is not supposed to be a serviceable part but actually you can have it replaced for about $300. Whether or not it's worth doing is debatable on a $600 body, but it's a no-brainer on a $6000 body.

jim

[wxwax]

I'd be astonished if your 20D upped and died at 100K. I have a feeling it will live a long and happy life well past that milestone.

[DoctorIt]

I am all ready to blame the lenses, but does the sensor degrade over time.Sensors, no pun intended, are definitely the most sensitive part of your dslr. I'm no sensor expert, but I know enough about electronics and semiconductor fab/design to know that a CMOS chip does indeed have a finite lifespan. Your L lenses will outlive you.

Im going to read eriks link now so he doesnt think I dont love him.:lol3 you're such a sweetheart

[winger]

Well, if you do consumer-level shooting you would probably never need one but prolific photographers can easily break 10k frames per year -- and pros will probably not be making much money if they don't exceed that by quite a bit.

Higher end cameras are designed with serviceability of moving parts like the shutter in mind, but a lot of consumer equipment is not and tends to have less reliable components to boot.

Even so, it may be possible to service even supposedly "un-serviceable" shutters. The EOS-300D's shutter, for instance, is not supposed to be a serviceable part but actually you can have it replaced for about $300. Whether or not it's worth doing is debatable on a $600 body, but it's a no-brainer on a $6000 body.

jim


Yeah I am kind of the land inbetween....I shoot ALOT...Doc can vouch. But I dont make the income (because i exist in the land between pro and semi pro and I shoot for the student paper, make some money but only really enough to pay for equipment) to pay for the higher end bodies. I had a Mark II but sold it to a friend who not only shot for his athletics department but also for USA Hockey and occassionaly he gets a shot in SI.

So I use my 20d and expect it to perform like the MARK II's, ID level type camera do.
For the most part it does the job.

Now that I think of it I had the shutter replaced last year, having the evil 99 error and *someone* talked me into buying a Mark II, (which is a marvelous camera but a little too much for me right now.....) which filled in great over the 2 months it took canon to get my camera fixed right (took two trys)

So I guess back to the question at hand? Is my 20d going to live a long and wonderful life? Is this lack of sharpness issue a camera issue, a lens issue or an operator error (and I proably should find some other lenses and camera to test my equipment with, but doc went to the other side).

[winger]

Sensors, no pun intended, are definitely the most sensitive part of your dslr. I'm no sensor expert, but I know enough about electronics and semiconductor fab/design to know that a CMOS chip does indeed have a finite lifespan. Your L lenses will outlive you.

:lol3 you're such a sweetheart

I read your link.


You think cleaning the sensor, that scares me!!!!
Maybe the people at hunts will help me if i bat some eyelashes, now that they arent mean to me anymore...... :)

[mercphoto]

If I could I would love to get another Mark II but I cant really afford those......
I know the feeling. But I saw on the Canon web the 1D shutter life-span is 200k acutations. So only twice the life of a 20D? For all the heralded durability of the 1-series I would have expected more. What am I missing?

I also think the upgrades on the 5D arent really what I need, since I do sports and honestly the 1.6 crop factor is working in my favor in terms of getting more distance out of my lenses.
I like the 1.6 crop factor for exactly the same reason. I think full-frame would be problematic for you. 30D perhaps? I'm cursious is to what exactly Canon has improved with the auto-focus algorithms on that camera.

[DoctorIt]

You think cleaning the sensor, that scares me!!!!Clean sensor has nothing to do with sharpness or failing color rendition. You only need to clean your sensor if you can actually see dust motts on your images.

[winger]

I know the feeling. But I saw on the Canon web the 1D shutter life-span is 200k acutations. So only twice the life of a 20D? For all the heralded durability of the 1-series I would have expected more. What am I missing?


I like the 1.6 crop factor for exactly the same reason. I think full-frame would be problematic for you. 30D perhaps? I'm cursious is to what exactly Canon has improved with the auto-focus algorithms on that camera.

yeah that is hte biggest thing I missed with the 1d MarkII is the autofocus ablity, I saw with the 30d the fps is bumped up....but really not worth the difference for me to buy that camera again. (If i was making more money sure, but again i stradle the line between working pro and joe with a camera).

MY longest lens as it is, is the 70-200 L 2.8....which is short of lax, baseball, soccer and football but i make due.

What do people think about my sharpness issue? Is it a sign the camera is going?

[winger]

Clean sensor has nothing to do with sharpness or failing color rendition. You only need to clean your sensor if you can actually see dust motts on your images.

Ahhh well that elimnates that as a possibly reason for my image degradation......

[DoctorIt]

What do people think about my sharpness issue? Is it a sign the camera is going?That's a tough one.

Do you have any old shots you could replicate? Like something you set up at home (still life)? You unfortunately will have a hard time quantifying this. Those lax shots look pretty sharp to me.
:dunno

[wxwax]

Tha's what I thought. I read your concerns about sharpness and went back to look at the lacrosse shots. They look fine to me. :dunno You have some examples of softness?

[jimf]

I know the feeling. But I saw on the Canon web the 1D shutter life-span is 200k acutations. So only twice the life of a 20D? For all the heralded durability of the 1-series I would have expected more. What am I missing?

You also get weather sealing (the 20D has none; for that matter, neither does the 5D), better viewfinder coverage (which means bigger, brighter image), much improved autofocus, higher resolution, speed speed speed, and of course a full-frame sensor (which could be a plus or a minus, depending on what you do).

Whether or not any of that is worth the price difference is debatable, it will depend on how you use the camera.

[wxwax]

You also get weather sealing (the 20D has none; for that matter, neither does the 5D), better viewfinder coverage (which means bigger, brighter image), much improved autofocus, higher resolution, speed speed speed, and of course a full-frame sensor (which could be a plus or a minus, depending on what you do).

Whether or not any of that is worth the price difference is debatable, it will depend on how you use the camera.
Not a full frame sensor, a 1.3 crop.

[jimf]

Not a full frame sensor, a 1.3 crop.

Oops, I hadn't realized that not all of the 1D series were full frame. Out of my price range anyway :-).

[wxwax]

Oops, I hadn't realized that not all of the 1D series were full frame. Out of my price range anyway :-).
Yeah, they're pricey. But I see that $1200 1D cameras aren't moving on Fred Miranda, which probably means they'll move at one grand or slightly more.

[binghott]

in just over a year, i took over 60,000 shots on my digital rebel before it died. i believe the shutter was rated for 50,000 actuations. i got the shutter replaced, it's good as new.

had the shutter died in less than one year it would've been covered canon. luckily the american express card i purchased the camera with doubles your warranty. my 1 year canon warranty turned into a 2-year warranty. american express wound up paying for the $250 repair.

now i use the rebel as a backup to my 20d which already has over 10,000 acuations since the beginning of the year.

hope this helps!

[Bob Bell]

The 20D only has 1 significant AF issue and that can be overcome. It does not AF correctly on objects moving directly towards the camera in anymode. But if you tap the shutter release and are quick at it, it works almost as well as a 1DmkII. This is really bad with football and bird photography. Drove me crazy until I saw someone mention it.

Cmason, I take a 100 an hour when shooting birds if not more. I think I took 220 or so in 2 hours early saturday morning. Sports fills up cards fast. Only thing that is slow for me is product / advertising shoots which I can get away with 20 or less usuall.

Its pretty easy to put 10,000 images on a body as year. I know a few people that go well over 25,000 but they shoot games 2-4 days a week. 200 a week is over 10,000. Say a 20% keeper rate across the board, thats 2000 images a year to store plus RAW's. If a consumer shutter is good for 50k, you got 10,000 good shots out of it. Thats easily worth $250-300 for a new shutter.

[winger]

The 20D only has 1 significant AF issue and that can be overcome. It does not AF correctly on objects moving directly towards the camera in anymode. But if you tap the shutter release and are quick at it, it works almost as well as a 1DmkII. This is really bad with football and bird photography. Drove me crazy until I saw someone mention it..

Yeah pretty much any action moving toward me its sort of ok, that is the one I want shoot.......

Because the AF just doesnt like that sort of motion, but the media guides and papers do (single isolated action shots) but yeah that is sort of the process I have been working through......its really hard in terms of hockey, that sport just moves too fast for the AF to work with out you giving it all the tools it can use to be great.

So .......
I will try to find some photos to compare today between studying on my sharpness degradation issue..........

I really like my 20d and since I can really afford a MKII again, if I am going to replace the 20D i would love for canon to come out with a sweet upgrade.....

sigh.....

[DoctorIt]

I really like my 20d and since I can really afford a MKII again, if I am going to replace the 20D i would love for canon to come out with a sweet upgrade.....

sigh.....Patch and I were just talking about this last night. I think for the first time, Canon has failed to really "wow" us with their new stuff for this year. Yeah, the 30D is nice, but it doesn't have the impact factor the 20D did over the 10D. A few FPS, yeah, bigger LCD, yeah, but worth dumping a good 20D and spending way more $$$ for? Nope.

Anyway, I'll be looking for those sharpness samples. :ear

[jimf]

Patch and I were just talking about this last night. I think for the first time, Canon has failed to really "wow" us with their new stuff for this year. Yeah, the 30D is nice, but it doesn't have the impact factor the 20D did over the 10D. A few FPS, yeah, bigger LCD, yeah, but worth dumping a good 20D and spending way more $$$ for? Nope.

I don't think the 30D is really aimed at the 20D user base -- those purchases were too recent. It's probably aimed more solidly at people (like, say, me) who bought Rebels and are now thinking it's time to step up, or film holdouts.

Heck, if it weren't for the fact that they shrunk the battery on the XT I might just get one of those. The only really nasty problem I have with the Rebel is the write rate is so slow that I am constantly looking at "busy" in the viewfinder.

[ginger_55]

What do you mean to tap the shutter? To hold it what?

How would you have time to do that as the "bird", I shoot birds, it would just be closer before you actually "shot" it?

I figure that the problem is that there is a slight time lag in the shutter, between the AF and the time the shutter actually takes the photo. I just figured that since I couldn't trade up financially, that I was stuck with a time lag. ???

I have gotten good focus on exactly one shot of a bird coming at me, and I shoot a bunch.

Also, how do you check the number of actuations your 20D has on it?

(If this post should be moved to somewhere, like a how to place, please move it. I would really like to know the answer, especially important to the first question.)

ginger

[mercphoto]

I don't think the 30D is really aimed at the 20D user base -- those purchases were too recent. It's probably aimed more solidly at people (like, say, me) who bought Rebels and are now thinking it's time to step up, or film holdouts.
I agree with that assessment (not aimed at 20D owners, aimed at Rebel owners), and is probably why 20D owners are not all that thrilled with the 30D. Its not enough for them to dish out the bucks and buy a new camera. Me, I'm glad, as its saving me $$$. :) I also think that's why many people think this should have been a 20D-N, not a 30D. The feature set improvement is rather nice, but doesn't seem large enough to warrant a new model name.

[winger]

ok this is how I would like them all to look.....and it seems like I am getting less of these shots than before. Then again I could be getting more picky.....
This one shot with a 50mm
http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/57653432-M-1.jpg

But I get more of these.....
http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/57747487-M.jpg

Am I being insane about quality?
Let me go look for stuff from last year.....

[winger]

Stuff from last year


http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/12367093-M-1.jpg

http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/16441102-M-1.jpg

Ok now that I am looking at alot of my shots this year a consistant with the shots that I am not happy with the sharpness....so maybe its just I have impoved as a photograhper and I am expecting more out of my equipment than maybe possible on a regular basis.......

Maybe I will go look at some outdoor stuff....

[winger]

ok some soccer...which is hard to compare because I feel composition wise I am shooting better....but now I am starting to realise maybe I didnt notice the difference before ( I mean there is OOF photos then simple soft photos....so maybe I should be happy with the not as sharp photos....)

because looking at last years gallery I found this one:
http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/10884244-M-2.jpg
Nice and sharp
But most look like this....
http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/10884240-M-2.jpg

This year:
http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/36819707-M-1.jpg
eh...its ok.
http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/40451808-M.jpg
sharp
http://winger.smugmug.com/photos/39151178-M-1.jpg


Ok now that I am looking through.....maybe its I just didnt notice the differences before......I never said I wasnt insane.

So I guess that just leaves me to my custom white balance question, why when I balance of white home jerseys (or snow) does it go to blue?????

[mercphoto]

Ok now that I am looking through.....maybe its I just didnt notice the differences before......I never said I wasnt insane.
I, myself, can easily get into a situation where I start over-analyzing what I am doing and what results I am getting. You might be doing that to yourself. Also I find that its easy for the photographer to be overly critical of their own work, when their customers find it fantastic. It has helped me, for example, to hear from my motocross customers how much they like my photographers. It serves to remind me that I am obsessing when I shouldn't. What are your customers saying?

So I guess that just leaves me to my custom white balance question, why when I balance of white home jerseys (or snow) does it go to blue?????
The snow question can be answered with a search on dgrin forums. In short, on a bright day snow is slightly blue because of reflecting blue sky. White jerseys might be the same thing.

Personally I'm surprised your 20D isn't good enough at auto white balance for daylight outdoor sports. I always shoot AWB for karts, motocross. The indoor stuff I can understand problems with AWB.

[DoctorIt]

I never said I wasnt insane.Yeah, but I did! :lol3

[ginger_55]

I would really like an answer to this question re tapping the shutter, a few posts back, but I need an answer. I would copy the whole thing for shenanigans or something, but my PC is not cooporating with the copy feature right now.

This is where the question is:

http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=258459&postcount=27

Please, it has been a very on going problem.

Winger I think your shots are fine. One, in sports they probably are not going to be blown up sky high, and you are not posting in the nature thread.

But my bird shots are OOF, not soft, OOF, the ones coming straight on, and that is with a good lock. I don't work them up so I have none to show you. The sole, single, in focus shot, I could show you, amazed me, but it would not prove any points. However I shoot like 400 or more now, photos at a time, so I have had a lot of experience NOT GETTING shots of birds coming straight at me. And I know I have a good lock, everything looks fine to me until I look up close in the LCD.

ginger (IT is the same thing with my dogs running towards me. I can have them off leash on the beach a good distance away. follow them with a good lock towards me. OOF, just always OOF. That would be something the rest of you could try if you own dogs.............you could see what I am talking about.)

[DavidTO]

So I guess that just leaves me to my custom white balance question, why when I balance of white home jerseys (or snow) does it go to blue?????


White in RGB is 256R 256B 256G. By default it's neutral. This means that if you're trying to correct for a color cast, anything white or nearly white is a poor choice, since it will tend towards neutral anyway. You're better off finding a middle gray for setting your white balance with the eyedropper.

Same for black, BTW. 0R 0B 0G. anything near black will naturally skew towards neutral as RGB struggles to represent a very dark color.

[winger]

Personally I'm surprised your 20D isn't good enough at auto white balance for daylight outdoor sports. I always shoot AWB for karts, motocross. The indoor stuff I can understand problems with AWB.

Just for clarification the only time I would custom white balance outside is if I am shooting a scenic photo that had alot of snow, other wise the AWB is prefectly fine.....

but the blue effect I am having with the indoor shots, is similar to what you get when you dont custom white balance with snow. And I havent changed a thing......so I didnt know if my camera is freaking out...because well I have used it well beyond "its expected life expectancy of 100,000 shots"

And people are buying mystuff yeah, but I see other photograhpers output, ones I sit next too, that compoistion wise i dont think are as good, but they are sharper and pop more. Maybe its a matter of me taking the summer to really learn PS when I am finally done with school.....



Winger I think your shots are fine. One, in sports they probably are not going to be blown up sky high, and you are not posting in the nature thread.

And some of my shots have been blown up to large banner sizes....they dont appear as sharp as comparitive banners from the other photograhper.

Maybe its my technique......because in all honesty I feel like the composition of my stuff is better than his, but his stuff is always tack sharp and pops....and its not like I am comparing OOF or soft images, that would be simple.

[mercphoto]

And people are buying mystuff yeah, but I see other photograhpers output, ones I sit next too, that compoistion wise i dont think are as good, but they are sharper and pop more. Maybe its a matter of me taking the summer to really learn PS when I am finally done with school.....


And some of my shots have been blown up to large banner sizes....they dont appear as sharp as comparitive banners from the other photograhper.

Maybe its my technique......because in all honesty I feel like the composition of my stuff is better than his, but his stuff is always tack sharp and pops....and its not like I am comparing OOF or soft images, that would be simple.
I guess a few things to consider. One, maybe your 20D is wore out after all. Can you rent one for a day and find out? Borrow one?

Two, what are you doing in post, if anything?

[wxwax]

And people are buying mystuff yeah, but I see other photograhpers output, ones I sit next too, that compoistion wise i dont think are as good, but they are sharper and pop more. Maybe its a matter of me taking the summer to really learn PS when I am finally done with school.....


The pop is all about post-processing. I'm sure you could batch process to get it, too. I'm sure you could come up with a simple work flow for each sport, that includes basic sharpening.

Of all your problem shots, the only one that looks really bad is the second basketball player. It kinda looks like some of the floor behind him is in focus. I assume your autofocus is simply grabbing the wrong thing in a fast moving, low-light environment. :dunno

[mercphoto]

The pop is all about post-processing. I'm sure you could batch process to get it, too. I'm sure you could come up with a simple work flow for each sport, that includes basic sharpening.
For better colors I run my racing images through the "more vivid color" action from http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/DigiPhoto.html. I personally know the author, and his Photoshop actions are pretty good. The more vivid color action attempts to replicate Fuji Velvia feel. For sharpening I use a high pass filter. It seems to work very well for the racing images I take. Don't know how it would do with the soccer/b-ball pictures. I shoot 20D, in-camera large-fine JPG, Parameters 1.

I assume your autofocus is simply grabbing the wrong thing in a fast moving, low-light environment. :dunno
I notice I need to be very careful with my 20D and keeping the center focus point on the subject of interest. It is easy to let it drift, and then the images suffer as a result.

[DJ-S1]

Some good AF info here (http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/EOS_Digital.pdf) straight from Canon, lots of stuff I didn't know. Talks about the 1-series but it applies to all the Canon dSLRs.


Also look here, (http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/index.html) under Tips and Techniques, Sharpening RAW images. Also from Canon. That one is kind of long winded, but this guy recommends way more sharpening than I currently use and he says that your RAW images should look soft straight off the camera.

[ginger_55]

Some good AF info here (http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/EOS_Digital.pdf) straight from Canon, lots of stuff I didn't know. Talks about the 1-series but it applies to all the Canon dSLRs.


Also look here, (http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/index.html) under Tips and Techniques, Sharpening RAW images. Also from Canon. That one is kind of long winded, but this guy recommends way more sharpening than I currently use and he says that your RAW images should look soft straight off the camera.

Then why do some look in focus straight off the camera????

hahahaahaha

However, mine are oof!!!!! When the bird/dog is coming towards me.

ginger

[winger]

I guess a few things to consider. One, maybe your 20D is wore out after all. Can you rent one for a day and find out? Borrow one?

Two, what are you doing in post, if anything?

Yeah I was thinking about comparing my equipment, I was sitting next to one of the hallmark photograhpy students at the hoops game and her stuff looked sharp, we were shooting with the same equipment (then again we were looking at LCD screens so what is that really???)
But yeah I think I will look into borrowing or renting another 20D

I really do very little in post, if anything at all.


hmmm so maybe I just need to learn to watch the center point focus
AND
break down and learn photoshop
(there was is a short workshop class held by the local community rec programs, but its on the same night i have class, the advance class is on a night that i can take but assumes i know about layers, which i know they exist) so it may just have to wait for the summer and maybe I just have to learn to deal with the photos till then, and maybe improve with the Center focus a little

[Bob Bell]

Ginger sorry if you were waiting on me.

If I have an egret or GBH or hawk or something coming at me, I switch to one shot and constantly reaquire focus using the center point only. If you are used to rolling your finger to shoot, just roll it on and off, essentially tapping the AF.

I do have a lot of issues of my own with birds in flight but I learned this technique last year with a 1DmkII and football trying to keep the center point on the player with the ball and not drift over to the tackler.

Hope this helps. It might be a bad habit of mine but I really don't use the other focus points for birds or sports.

[DoctorIt]

I really do very little in post, if anything at all.

AND
break down and learn photoshop
I joke a lot about this, and since you're a good friend I'll be honest: I've always been amazed at how good your photos are for shooting all JPGs and doing no post. But seriously, you've hit a wall! You can't expect to compete on a pro level without post. That'd be like Ansel Adams getting famous just by selling his slides. Uh, no, ain't gonna happen. Half the art is in the development, that's why only the top of the line cameras have RAW capability - to give you all the light information for you to develop as you see fit. You want to be a pro, you gotta learn how to develop your photos. Even the mkII ain't no magic box, so don't fall back on that.

Suck it up Winga. How many times have I offered??? Hmm, hmmm??

Tough love. :lust

[winger]

I joke a lot about this, and since you're a good friend I'll be honest: I've always been amazed at how good your photos are for shooting all JPGs and doing no post. But seriously, you've hit a wall! You can't expect to compete on a pro level without post. That'd be like Ansel Adams getting famous just by selling his slides. Uh, no, ain't gonna happen. Half the art is in the development, that's why only the top of the line cameras have RAW capability - to give you all the light information for you to develop as you see fit. You want to be a pro, you gotta learn how to develop your photos. Even the mkII ain't no magic box, so don't fall back on that.

Suck it up Winga. How many times have I offered??? Hmm, hmmm??

Tough love. :lust

Yeah I know, once I am done with school I promise. And If im still in this state you are soooo my tutor.
(the good news is I have been shooting raw/JPEG for about a year now, so I have a LARGE collection of raw files to work with, so I had intentions to learn I swear)

[mercphoto]

Yeah I know, once I am done with school I promise. And If im still in this state you are soooo my tutor.
(the good news is I have been shooting raw/JPEG for about a year now, so I have a LARGE collection of raw files to work with, so I had intentions to learn I swear)
I'm going to disagree with DoctorIt about the RAW part of things. That is not your problem. Probably 99% of the event shooters shoot JPG. Your competition, whose photos you think are sharper and have more pop, are probably shooting JPG. Ask them, I think it will surprise you.

RAW is good. But it is over-hyped. It is NOT a necessity for good photography, especially the sports shots you take. I feel about RAW the way Shay feels about LAB.

However, he is correct that you need to do something in post. Images straight from the camera won't cut it. Its just that you can do those things with the JPG and in a batch manner, save yourself a bunch of manual labor.

Shoot large-fine JPG, Parameters 1, sRGB color space. Do mild color and sharpening in post, something you can batch.

Not trying to start a RAW vs. JPG thread, and even I shoot RAW under certain scenarios. But your sports photography shouldn't warrant using RAW to get the results you want.

[DoctorIt]

I'm going to disagree with DoctorIt Yeah, well, we can agree to disagree.

However, let me reiterate what we agree on, but in slightly different terms: YOU are smarter than your 20D! Do not think for one second that the code and processing parameters in that tiny box are the word of a higher being. YOU should be making the final say in how your picture looks!

And I won't get into a debate, the but truth is Winger doesn't know, so I get my one retort to your post:

YES, merc is right, you can totally do this with JPG, and it probably is easier for sports. However, for the record, RAW is just that, RAW. By making changes to JPG's you're not starting from scratch, you are trying to fix something the camera already decided on.

I'll make you a deal, learn how to do RAW in a tutorial setting, just so you really understand what YOU are doing v. what the 20D is doing onboard when it makes a jpg. After that, you can shoot all the jpg you want, forever*. Yeah?

*because the second truth is, the 8mp 20D jpg files are so big and clean, you have quite a bit of leeway with the information thats in there. its all just a matrix of numbers after all
:D

[mercphoto]

Yeah, well, we can agree to disagree.

However, let me reiterate what we agree on, but in slightly different terms: YOU are smarter than your 20D! Do not think for one second that the code and processing parameters in that tiny box are the word of a higher being. YOU should be making the final say in how your picture looks!
You're assuming that I have not already decided that I like the look of the in-camera JPG... ;) Truth is I've shot RAW+JPG and processed them both. For what I do, for the shots I take, for the amount of effort I can justify spending on 1,000 photos on a weekend, there is zero difference. Let's be realistic, I just uploaded 1630 photos from one race on Sunday. I'm not going to individually tweak each photo for optimum appearance. This is why I say Raw is over-hyped, and those that say "only shoot raw" live in an alternate reality ;) (those who say "only shoot jpg" are, of course, in the same boat)

My problem, Eric, is that you appear to say "only shoot raw". Correct me if I'm wrong about that. Winger's current problems do not require RAW to solve, but doing so will create extra work and extra time (even if batched).

Its unclear to me if the following was directed to Winger or myself:
I'll make you a deal, learn how to do RAW in a tutorial setting, just so you really understand what YOU are doing v. what the 20D is doing onboard when it makes a jpg. After that, you can shoot all the jpg you want, forever*. Yeah?

Winger, send me a outdoor soccer image of yours that you took recently that you think is a bit soft and dull. Email the photo to mercphoto@mac.com. I'll take 30 seconds at it and post the results later this evening.

[DoctorIt]

My problem, Eric, is that you appear to say "only shoot raw". Correct me if I'm wrong about that. Winger's current problems do not require RAW to solve, but doing so will create extra work and extra time (even if batched).You DO want to start a debate!!! :lol3

And you're dead wrong, I never said shoot only RAW. In fact... did you even read what I just wrote?

I'll make you a deal, learn how to do RAW in a tutorial setting, just so you really understand what YOU are doing v. what the 20D is doing onboard when it makes a jpg. After that, you can shoot all the jpg you want, forever*. Yeah?

*because the second truth is, the 8mp 20D jpg files are so big and clean, you have quite a bit of leeway with the information thats in there. its all just a matrix of numbers after all

I just wrote a whole bunch and deleted it, you've got your view, but I know Winger much better so I'm sticking to my guns: I'm not debating, trying to help a friend with a specific problem. That problem being: not becoming a better shooter, but overcoming a fear of what a digital image is/has potential to be.

[mercphoto]

And you're dead wrong, I never said shoot only RAW.
You're right, I looked again. Apologies.

I just wrote a whole bunch and deleted it, you've got your view, but I know Winger much better so I'm sticking to my guns: I'm not debating, trying to help a friend with a specific problem. That problem being: not becoming a better shooter, but overcoming a fear of what a digital image is/has potential to be.
We're both trying to help her, in different ways. Mine is an immediate fix to her JPG workflow to improve existing images. If I'm correct about this we could even setup a batch and she could run all her existing images through and get an improvement. You are trying to help her with the future by learning how to manipulate raw. Nothing wrong with either approach.

[rich56k]

For better colors I run my racing images through the "more vivid color" action from http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/DigiPhoto.html. I personally know the author, and his Photoshop actions are pretty good. The more vivid color action attempts to replicate Fuji Velvia feel. For sharpening I use a high pass filter. It seems to work very well for the racing images I take. Don't know how it would do with the soccer/b-ball pictures. I shoot 20D, in-camera large-fine JPG, Parameters 1.
WOW !! Thanks for this post!! I stumbled across it last nite and checked out Noel Carbonis site / offerings and for a PS/CS newby it was heaven sent!!
Noel just spent a considerable amount of time walking me thru his pre- packaged "actions" to create custom-super actions (YEAH!!) (I bought last nite) Its the best $15.00 i ever spent!!
I shoot cycle drags (20D-jpeg l/fine-p1 also) and also come home w/800+ shots /event --i bulk edit bad/good/great in iPhoto using slideshow ratings system to get down to 70-130 keepers but then spent way to long tweeking or no time just posting (no-post!) West coast Drags start in March now I'm really ready!!
Thanks: Bill!! and Noel!!
pass the word - check this out!!! Photoshop Actions For Sale!!

http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/DigiPhoto.html

[Andy]

Suck it up Winga. How many times have I offered??? Hmm, hmmm??

Tough love. :lust

And I, too, have offered, plently of free service for dear Winger, going back to the "yellow" ice.... Now, if you want it, it'll cost you a cake or something. :evil

[ginger_55]

Ginger sorry if you were waiting on me.

If I have an egret or GBH or hawk or something coming at me, I switch to one shot and constantly reaquire focus using the center point only. If you are used to rolling your finger to shoot, just roll it on and off, essentially tapping the AF.

I do have a lot of issues of my own with birds in flight but I learned this technique last year with a 1DmkII and football trying to keep the center point on the player with the ball and not drift over to the tackler.

Hope this helps. It might be a bad habit of mine but I really don't use the other focus points for birds or sports.

I use the center point exclusively, almost, too. That doesn't do it, I mean I am staring straight at a locked in "in focus" bird coming straight at me, I shoot it, then I do it again, and again. Get home and not quite in focus, in fact, it would not pass the Andy/Harry test.

I do leave it on servo, what diff would "one shot" do?

ginger

[Bob Bell]

I use the center point exclusively, almost, too. That doesn't do it, I mean I am staring straight at a locked in "in focus" bird coming straight at me, I shoot it, then I do it again, and again. Get home and not quite in focus, in fact, it would not pass the Andy/Harry test.

I do leave it on servo, what diff would "one shot" do?

ginger

To me it seems that when on servo and shooting something straight on, when focus is lost, the lenses moves and if you take an image before it relocks it will be soft. Had that happen on a heron last weekend. I think, and it might be me, but it seems like you control when it focus locks with one shot better than servo. Maybe I am just too impatient.

[winger]

And I, too, have offered, plently of free service for dear Winger, going back to the "yellow" ice.... Now, if you want it, it'll cost you a cake or something. :evil

Ok I can totally send some of grandma wingers cookies....they are a work favorite. And you are still on my to do list......but just from wed 4am I havent stopped moving....between job interviews, work, school and taking care of my dad it keeps getting pushed off....Unless you want me to call at 2am :)

Its not like I dont want to learn, I swear.

And I will dig up a soccer pic for you mercer and maybe send it today...no promises.....

[DoctorIt]

heck, for cookies, I'll do your post processing FOR you! :D

[mercphoto]

I use the center point exclusively, almost, too. That doesn't do it, I mean I am staring straight at a locked in "in focus" bird coming straight at me, I shoot it, then I do it again, and again. Get home and not quite in focus, in fact, it would not pass the Andy/Harry test.

I do leave it on servo, what diff would "one shot" do?
I don't know if this is what is happening to you or not. But I have found that a 20D can be hard to track small moving objects on. You have to be very, very careful about keeping the center point on the object. This is hard to do if the object is small.

If I had to bet, Ginger, I'd say that your camera is drifting into focusing on the sky (i.e. background) and is causing your out of focus shots. Just a guess.

I would try AI-Servo focusing with all focus points on, see what happens. This mode will aquire initial focus on the center point, and then follow the main subject to the other focus points. It may or may not help.

I think the fact that a 1D Mark II has so many focus points, and points that are so closely spaced, is part of what makes it so good at focus tracking. Oh... to dream...