Canon's new 30D

[blackwaterstudio]

First off I must say I'm very dissapointed in Canon, they seemed to have dropped the ball against the Nikon D200. I think alot of people feel this way, we were looking for atleast a 10mp body. Guess I'll move on to 1-series body.

Canon EOS 30D features
- 8.19 megapixels CMOS image sensor
- 2.5-inch LCD display
- 0.15 second start up time
- ISO 100-1600
- Picture Style menu
- Increased burst depth
- More durable shutter
- Automatic long exposure noise reduction
- Three ambient metering modes: Evaluative, Center-Weighted and 9% Partial
- Improved power management - up to 9999 frames per folder


http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-7891-8214

Sample images seen here.
http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos30d/sample/index.html

Canon 17-55 f/2.8 IS
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022113canonefs1755f28g.asp

Canon 85L 1.2 II
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022112canonef85f12l.asp

[chuckice]

As a D200/Nikon guy I'd say that looks like a nice body...it's only missing a few things that the D200 has...8 vs 10MP isn't that big of a deal. Also, it's $300 cheaper...my guess is it's less noisy at higher iso's, likely not by much but less. If 8 vs. 10MP is the only reason you're passing on a 30D and you're already invested in Canon glass then I'd think twice but that's just my 2 cents. The most disapointing thing to me would be that burst/buffer rate...very low compared to the D200.

[NHBubba]

Phh! The difference from 8->10 MP isn't worth loosing sleep over. The camera looks exactly as expected: a refresh of the 20D, not an 'upgrade'. Seems to me that Canon is finally settling into having distinct and well defined tiers. I expect replacement models to look less and less appealing to those that own the cameras being replaced from here on out. Instead the camera should appeal to Rebel owners or film holdouts.

And speaking as a Rebel owner, this camera DOES appeal! It just made my wish list..

[binghott]

i'm a little annoyed that i recently bought a 20d and could've had a 30d only a couple months later, but honestly the difference between the two is so small. i would've loved that 2.5" lcd (it's absolutely gorgeous!) and probably could've used the 1/3-step iso increments, but i'll live.

oh yeah, and the 17-55mm f2.8 sounds incredible.

[luckyrwe]

With the first number changing in the designation, I would have expected a very large change in the camera, just like from the 10D to the 20D. Seems to me this is just a 20Dn, if you want to keep with Canon's nomenclature for the other tiny updated cameras. Holy cow Canon, who names your cameras!?

I was going to whine about the updated 85mm lens (I have the first edition) but after seeing the price, mine may very well increase in value.

[ehughes]

Pretty dissapointing...

[ScottMcLeod]

i'm a little annoyed that i recently bought a 20d and could've had a 30d only a couple months later, but honestly the difference between the two is so small. i would've loved that 2.5" lcd (it's absolutely gorgeous!) and probably could've used the 1/3-step iso increments, but i'll live.

oh yeah, and the 17-55mm f2.8 sounds incredible.

Hey, it just means you can offload your 20D to someone like me now ^_^

[ScottMcLeod]

Pretty dissapointing...

I agree, but *shhh*. I want all the 20D owners to offload their units into the market so the supply will be high, and prices low :wink

AMAZING 30D! EVERYONEGOBUYONENOW! :clap You won't regret it! :thumb

[Ric Grupe]

oh yeah, and the 17-55mm f2.8 sounds incredible.

Better news than the 30D IMO. :clap

I'll be looking forward to reviews and images on this one!:cool

[W.W. Webster]

I'm very dissapointed in Canon ..... Guess I'll move on to 1-series body.That's astute product positioning and marketing, as I see it!

[ScottMcLeod]

Better news than the 30D IMO. :clap

I'll be looking forward to reviews and images on this one!:cool

I agree. This means good things for my theatre & dance photography.

[luckyrwe]

Hey, it just means you can offload your 20D to someone like me now ^_^

Who wants that antiquated jalopy now?

[ivar]

Who wants that antiquated jalopy now?ME, ME, pick ME :wave

[DanielB]

no new FF?:cry

[ScottMcLeod]

Who wants that antiquated jalopy now?

Me!

[DanielB]

all i can say is this better have the ISO quality of a 5D, if it does the next camera i'll pick up is this and then a 10-22 for my WA craving.:D

if it doesn't its back to the drawing board/saving for lenses till canon makes a nice, high ISO, consumer camera.

[Steve Cavigliano]

Pretty dissapointing...

:agree All this hoopla over a face-lifted 20D? I'm dissappointed. Then again, since it is just a tweaked 20D, I can dedicate any additional funds to new lenses....LOL

ISO value shown in the VF when you change it, but then it dissappears :scratch That sorta sux. Spot metering would be nice to have though :rolleyes The 2.5 LCD doesn't float my boat. I am soooo far-sighted, I'd need a 12 inch monitor to be able to see my pics during review :lol

Steve

[Michiel de Brieder]

Spot metering, ISO in 3rds, ISO in the VF, larger RAW buffer and 2,5" LCD, I must say, I'm intrigued... If I can get a good price for my own 20D I may even consider upgrading :D

[Nikolai]

Spot metering, ISO in 3rds, ISO in the VF, larger RAW buffer and 2,5" LCD, I must say, I'm intrigued... If I can get a good price for my own 20D I may even consider upgrading :D

With Canon bodies roaming on ebay at about $1K, this means at least $400 for the upgrade.... I like all the features you've mentioned, I'm just not certain about the update price..

At the moment I'm inclined to save more for the better glass, since I can see it can definitely bring more bang for the buck, and does not depreciate as quickly as the body..

However, if somebody would like to get my 20D body (purchased brand new in August 2005, under 10K actuations, honed like a baby) for $1,100 - I'm all ears..:wink (once 30D is out, that is:-)

Cheers!

[Matthew Saville]

Spot metering, ISO in 3rds, ISO in the VF, larger RAW buffer and 2,5" LCD, I must say, I'm intrigued... If I can get a good price for my own 20D I may even consider upgrading :D
As a slight note, the ISO isn't in the viewfinder full-time, but only when you hold the ISO button to change it. Still a fantastic improvement!

One lesser-known thing is the ability to begin a new long-exposure shot while the camera is performing NR on the previous exposure. If you've ever shot at 30+ seconds and had NR on, (NR doubles exposure time) you know how boring it can be to sit and wait for your camera to finish the NR... This feature coupled with the "count up timer" for bulb makes the 30D a really sweet camera for night exposures that climb up into the minutes instead of seconds...

However the silly "direct print" button and no direct MLU button (MLU I'm sure is still buried at custom function menu #12...) are what definitely decide that I'll be buying a secondhand 20D if I ever get a Canon for low-light photography. That and the 17-55 EF-S IS, if it's "sharp as L", is just WAY too tempting to have. Compared to my D70 that's "stuck" at ISO 1600 and f/3.5 with no stabilization, that's something like a possible 5 stops better shutter speed. WOW...

-Matt-

[DanielB]

http://infodigitalcamera.com/canon5d2back6fj.jpg

*drool*

[Mongrel]

till canon makes a nice, high ISO, consumer camera.

Daniel, what planet are you on:scratch

Canon has been making "nice, high ISO, consumer" cameras for several years...

Meanwhile...

Funny how all the disappointment seems to boil down to the cameras name :dunno

I don't care what they call it, it's a very well spec'd cam for $1400! And they did it without burning current 20D owners like me :D

I'm quite content to sit this round out with my 20D and my 1D. I'll wait until they can put out a 1D MkII type camera for $2000 or so, then I'll jump.

[DanielB]

Canon has been making "nice, high ISO, consumer" cameras for several years...

i'm thinkin like 5D ISO 3200 type of stuff...:wink

[Mongrel]

i'm thinkin like 5D ISO 3200 type of stuff...:wink

Are you sure you don't live with Andy?

Maybe you really are Andy posting under an assumed name :dunno

[DanielB]

Are you sure you don't live with Andy?

Maybe you really are Andy posting under an assumed name :dunno


:lol3


i just love night shots, low light, landscapes, and FF. and 5D does all of that :cool

[JimM]

i'm thinkin like 5D ISO 3200 type of stuff...:wink

20D performs great at ISO 3200...
http://jimmitte.smugmug.com/photos/49101810-L.jpg
No post processing! EXIF (http://jimmitte.smugmug.com/photos/newexif.mg?ImageID=49101810)

[NHBubba]

All this hoopla over a face-lifted 20D? I'm dissappointed.I guess I understand the disapointment over the hoopla.. but I can't understand disapointment in the Canon lineup or this camera. Quite frankly I'm surprised Canon (or any other manufacturer) can even keep this 18 month model refresh rate up at all!

That said, does anyone see value in that 'direct print' button? Is this really something anyone sees a demand for in a dSLR?

[gluwater]

The other day I was wondering to myself if they would make a higher quality EF-S mount lens and here it is. My only question about it is why the IS? I always thought IS was used mainly for longer lenses since they are harder to hand hold without getting camera shake. As far as I know the shortest lens before this was the 28-135 IS. Do you think the IS is worth the extra money for such a lens?

[Steve Cavigliano]

I guess I understand the disapointment over the hoopla.. but I can't understand disapointment in the Canon lineup or this camera. Quite frankly I'm surprised Canon (or any other manufacturer) can even keep this 18 month model refresh rate up at all!

That said, does anyone see value in that 'direct print' button? Is this really something anyone sees a demand for in a dSLR?

No on "Direct Print". Printing with no post processing? Nevah.......LOL

I hear ya about not being dissappointed. It's just that this camera has caused a huge stir on other forums and kind of doesn't live up to the hype. I mean I heard: 1.3X multiplier, weather-sealed, 10mpxl, DigicIII, better high ISO performance, ISO in the VF all of the time :rolleyes , better burst processing and spot metering. Well we got the last 2 anyway....LOL

I am more relieved than anything. I really can't afford a new camera now and I thank Canon for not tempting me further :rofl Now if I could just get that 500mm F4L out of my head....LOL

Steve

[Mongrel]

Steve :thumb

I guess I just don't get some of the hand wringing I see going on around the web :dunno

Canon actually perfected the 20D and people are pissed? What's up with that? Put out ANOTHER killer camera for $200 LESS and people are pissed?

Yikes :uhoh !

Does anyone *really* believe that the D200 is *that much* better that they need to jump ship? That's pretty shallow in my opinion. I've read the specs and just don't see any *real* advantages of the D200 over the 30D-I mean that in ALL honesty. Weather sealed? With an open lensmount? Better build? According to Nikon fans maybe, but I've come to really love and appreciate the ergos and the build of my Canons. And the three Nikons I've handled (D100, D70, D50) honestly left me unimpressed. I mean I was *waiting* to be knocked off my feet and....I....just....wasn't, not in the least.

The Canon 20D and now the 30D (I'm sure), will be the great cameras they are, that much is certain.

[Nikolai]

The other day I was wondering to myself if they would make a higher quality EF-S mount lens and here it is. My only question about it is why the IS? I always thought IS was used mainly for longer lenses since they are harder to hand hold without getting camera shake. As far as I know the shortest lens before this was the 28-135 IS. Do you think the IS is worth the extra money for such a lens?

Nick,

EF-S 17-85 IS USM is, I believe, a predecessor for this new 17-55 baby. And what a nice predecessor it is. It's definitely my workaround lens.:thumb

Speaking of IS on a relatively mid range lens.. Well, when it comes to low light IS still gets you 2-3 extra stops, if not in terms of aperture, then in terms of shutter. Lately I was shooting 1/10s.. 1/15s and almost never get a hand-induced blur. So don't think of IS just as a compensation for long tele (where otherwise it's the only alternative to the good sturdy tripod), it's also a nice compensation for the handheld low light shots...

Cheers!:1drink

[mercphoto]

I think Canon has a good camera here. Cheaper than the 20D when it was first brought out, so that's a plus. Larger LCD, that's a plus. I really like the smart auto-rotate feature (firmware update for my 20D, Canon?). Picture Styles should be nice. Bigger buffer. And I'm not upset its still 8MP.

And I really like that folders can hold more than 100 photos now!

But I still want a 1D Mark II N. $$$ :(

The D200 has it beat on megapixels (no biggie) and weather sealing. But I think the 30D will easily beat Nikon on high ISO performance. And the Canon is cheaper by $300.

[Andy]

:lol3


i just love night shots, low light, landscapes, and FF. and 5D does all of that :cool

Daniel - the 20D is SUPERB at ISO 3200.

[W.W. Webster]

The 30D is primarily focused (no pun intended) on new dSLR customers, or existing 350D users. There's not enough in it for present 20D owners, except for those who must have the latest and can afford to take the financial upgrade hit.

By confining the 30D to only incremental 'improvements', Canon is ensuring most prosumer users are not distracted from their aspirations along a 1- or 5- (or 3-?) series FF upgrade path. Indeed, as there is so little in the 30D announcement, could Canon's PR folks still have more media statements to release in the next day or two?

[DanielB]

Daniel - the 20D is SUPERB at ISO 3200.

still 1.6 now though aint it, i would rather have a 17-40 for wide, 50 for normal and 70-200 for the rest of the stuff :) and 28-105 for everyday walk-around

[DanielB]

could Canon's PR folks still have more media statements to release in the next day or two?

we'll see if they meet that "70 new products" rumor.:wink

[JCDoss]

Actually, I'm quite excited about the improvements Canon put into the 30D. I think I'll be upgrading after I read a couple of reviews. If anyone's interested in my 20D, email me. :deal

[luckyrwe]

So I wonder if they will have an upgrade to the 30D by the end of PMA. :D

[Michiel de Brieder]

The 30D is primarily focused (no pun intended) on new dSLR customers, or existing 350D users. There's not enough in it for present 20D owners, except for those who must have the latest and can afford to take the financial upgrade hit.
I strongly disagree, a larger RAW buffer and spot metering make it worthwhile for me if I can get enough for my 20D on switching. I love spot metering on my EOS 5 and I was kinda hoping for a digital prosumer equivalent :D

[kygarden]

Nikon always seems to get beat up in forums as if it's naturally and ALWAYS the second choice because it's not 'as good'. Personally, I don't like to get caught up in the camera wars, but at least this once, hopefully people can admit that the D200 is a better all around camera than say, the 20D or 30D. That's the nearest camera you can compare it to. And to hear all this jubilation of finally having spot metering and a few other goodies...for goodness sake, Nikon had this on the D70 and Lord knows what else, for awhile now! :) Again, I hate getting into arguments about what's best, etc, etc...but this one time, I have to stand up for my boy...LOL...the D200. And boy, there were a LOT of people that were REALLY ticked off and upset that Canon didn't out-do Nikon with the new 30D...just look at some of the first posts here when it was announced! >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1019

If you're not sure of the features the D200 really has, check the online user's manual. You'd be amazed at the level of customization this camera has. From the 4 shooting menu banks (where you can preset the camera to have different options set when you select the one of the other banks) to the advanced D2x autofocus modes to the vast array of dedicated buttons and dials to access commonly used functions. Have a look: http://support.nikontech.com/cgi-bin/nikonusa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13796&p_created=1135005015&p_sid=5rUVrO*h&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfc m93X2NudD0yJnBfcHJvZHM9MTksMjE3JnBfY2F0cz0xODcmcF9 wdj0yLjIxNyZwX2N2PTEuMTg3JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd 2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1

Just this once...can a Canon user finally admit that the D200 really is a 'better' camera and has the 20D/30D beat? Come on...it's ok...you can do it...LOL

Having said that. I don't think (like many others are saying now) that the 30D is meant to directly compete with the D200. It would seem the two companies have picked a slightly different way to classify their cameras. The D200 is more of a pro camera mixed with 'some' consumer features...and note that you won't find any preset 'portrait' or 'landscape' or 'sports' modes on the D200, just like you won't find them on the D2x or the pro level Canon cameras. The 30D has some pro features, but still aims to keep the weekend soccer mom happy with the point-n-shoot'ish type of features like the different shooting modes (portrait, sports, night portrait, etc)...right on the dial.

Ok, flame me if you want...but for once, I'd just love to see a Canon user admit that Nikon has the upper hand with the D200. It's only $200 more...and all those extra features :) I just hate to see Nikon never get any credit except in Nikon only forums. It's as if we Nikon users are the red-headed step-child or something...LOL Honestly, the only thing I think Canon has on the 20/30D that's better (makes a difference) is the high ISO noise control. Other than that...just look at what the D200 has to offer. Come on, give the boy some credit ;)

And in the end, it's as always...the person taking the pictures wins - not the camera. You could give a pro a Nikon D50 and a point-n-shoot kinda guy a Canon 1Ds Mark II and the pro with the D50 would 'win' every time. So in reality, much of the mine is better than yours arguments are silly. Because unless a person can walk the walk, so to speak, the camera doesn't matter. Look at the portraits Yuri posts on here. He's got me beat bigtime!...and he's only using a Sony F707. I'll shut up now...happy shooting :thumb

[Mongrel]

I will play nice I promise :D ....

First off, this really isn't about Nikon vs Canon. It's really about *my* choice vs *your choice*. You could substitute Ford vs Chevy, Remington vs Browning, whatever, it's the same-my choice vs your choice OR my *needs* vs your *needs*.

If I can figure out how to type within your quotes this will be much easier...let's see....

Nikon always seems to get beat up in forums as if it's naturally and ALWAYS the second choice because it's not 'as good'.

I disagree. Nikon has plenty of supporters who are very valient to crusade against any attempt to smear their cameras. Also, the history of the Canonites under Nikon's domination of the Pro Photo Fields of Old is replete with everything from public scorn to castration by sacrcasm. I am a victim of such treatment that began with my decision to purchase an AE-1 at the turn of the century.

Your type of thinking is basically a type of paranoia. However, it is enjoyable to see Nikon users up against the ropes (even if the ropes are invisible) :rofl

Personally, I don't like to get caught up in the camera wars, but at least this once, hopefully people can admit that the D200 is a better all around camera than say, the 20D or 30D. That's the nearest camera you can compare it to.

The day you made a choice you were drafted into "the camera wars". This post is proof enough of that!

Sorry, I cannot, and will not *admit* any such thing. I have committed no crime nor sin and will not bow to this idea because in someone else's mind the D200 IS better. Not a month ago, and not since the 30d was released do I believe this. In fact, looking at the feature set of the 30D, I'd easily say that *for me* the 30D IS STILL the better camera.

The nearest camera I compare the D200 to is my Canon 1D. I paid less for my 1D used than a D200 is new. In EVERY AREA except resolution, high ISO noise, and weight, the 1D puts the D200 to shame. You may not be aware of it but the 1D offers-COMPLETE weather sealing, 8fps, built in vertical grip, advanced auto focus, REAL pro body build, and a host of other refiinements that make it clearly superior to the D200-*for me*.


And to hear all this jubilation of finally having spot metering and a few other goodies...for goodness sake, Nikon had this on the D70 and Lord knows what else, for awhile now! :)

Here sir, you are absolutely and totally correct, and hats off to Nikon for it:thumb

Again, I hate getting into arguments about what's best, etc, etc...but this one time, I have to stand up for my boy...LOL...the D200. And boy, there were a LOT of people that were REALLY ticked off and upset that Canon didn't out-do Nikon with the new 30D...just look at some of the first posts here when it was announced! >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1019

If you're not sure of the features the D200 really has, check the online user's manual. You'd be amazed at the level of customization this camera has. From the 4 shooting menu banks (where you can preset the camera to have different options set when you select the one of the other banks) to the advanced D2x autofocus modes to the vast array of dedicated buttons and dials to access commonly used functions.

I'm not upset at all. I have a 1D and a 20D. The 30D resolved some issues with the 20D that make it even nicer, and it's now cheaper than the D200. I have no dobt whatever that Canon will soon release a 'true' upgrade to their 1 series cameras, and once this takes place we will see the trickle down effect onto the lower end bodies.

I have personal functions available on my 1D, and I've never used them, so no real benefit *to me* there.



Just this once...can a Canon user finally admit that the D200 really is a 'better' camera and has the 20D/30D beat? Come on...it's ok...you can do it...LOL

Well, I guess if you want to look at it this way, that's ok by me. But better is certainly relative AND subjective. Personally....

I find no advantage to a 'weather sealed' body that leaves an open lens mount and no weather proof lenses (as far as I know).
I find no advantage to the resolution.
I DO NOT like the 'feel' of Nikon bodies, they just don't fit my hands as well as Canons do.
The .5 framerate difference doesn't mean anything to me.
The deeper RAW buffer means nothing to me for what I use this camera for.
I am comfortable enough and can navigate the Canon control system fast enough that more buttons don't necessarily offer an advantage.
I see NO ADVANTAGE at all in the Nikons image quality over the Canon's.
MYTH BUSTER: Nikon's body is NOT BETTER CONSTRUCTED THAN Canons. I've compare them side by side, and I'm am amazed at how many people make this claim. I prefer the smooth contours and design of the Canon's over the chunky looking Nikons.
WIFI? I don't need WIFI so no advantage to me there.
AF points-11 vs 9? come on, I use center point almost exclusively on both my 1D (which has 45 pts. btw) and my 20D, if not the center point-then ONLY 1 point at a time. What good are two more AF points that I will probably NEVER use?

I could go on but time is of the essence....


Having said that. I don't think (like many others are saying now) that the 30D is meant to directly compete with the D200. It would seem the two companies have picked a slightly different way to classify their cameras. The D200 is more of a pro camera mixed with 'some' consumer features...and note that you won't find any preset 'portrait' or 'landscape' or 'sports' modes on the D200, just like you won't find them on the D2x or the pro level Canon cameras. The 30D has some pro features, but still aims to keep the weekend soccer mom happy with the point-n-shoot'ish type of features like the different shooting modes (portrait, sports, night portrait, etc)...right on the dial.

The 30D was probably beginning production before the D200 was even released. As has been said many, many, times-Canon is NOT going tit for tat with Nikon, BUT Nikon IS trying to compete with Canon. I think it's amusing that Canon could release a Nikon-killing camera AT ANY LEVEL AT ANY TIME! They haven't, because they haven't had to, it's that simple. Do we really think that Canon couldn't make a digital EOS 3?

Saying that the D200 lacks 'shooting modes' and is therefore more serious, is the same mistake people made about the Digital Rebel because it was silver. This amounts to 'mind games' in my opinion. Nikon looses the soccer moms by not including it, while Canon looses NOTHING by including it.


Ok, flame me if you want...but for once, I'd just love to see a Canon user admit that Nikon has the upper hand with the D200. It's only $200 more...and all those extra features :) I just hate to see Nikon never get any credit except in Nikon only forums. It's as if we Nikon users are the red-headed step-child or something...LOL Honestly, the only thing I think Canon has on the 20/30D that's better (makes a difference) is the high ISO noise control. Other than that...just look at what the D200 has to offer. Come on, give the boy some credit ;)

No flames, just 'opinions'. Sorry, I can't say that Nikon has the 'upper hand' here AT ALL. To truly have the 'upper hand' Nikon would have to have superior technology to Canon. They don't. Nikon may have generated and renewed interest in their cameras, but they have released NOTHING that Canon is incapable of releasing-ANY TIME THEY WISH. What it boils down to is how to maximize profits, and Canon has a much better idea than I do about how best to do that.

I guess to sum this up, you could say that Nikon has released a very good camera at a great price point. AT THIS TIME Canon may not be WILLING to put out a competitor, but certainly they COULD put out a competitor. For some people the D200 may just be THE CAMERA, but for others, certainly the 30D is THE CAMERA.

And in the end, it's as always...the person taking the pictures wins - not the camera. You could give a pro a Nikon D50 and a point-n-shoot kinda guy a Canon 1Ds Mark II and the pro with the D50 would 'win' every time. So in reality, much of the mine is better than yours arguments are silly. Because unless a person can walk the walk, so to speak, the camera doesn't matter. Look at the portraits Yuri posts on here. He's got me beat bigtime!...and he's only using a Sony F707. I'll shut up now...happy shooting :thumb

And here we have achieved complete agreement!

Take care and good light,

Mongrel

[NHBubba]

It's just that this camera has caused a huge stir on other forums and kind of doesn't live up to the hype. I mean I heard: 1.3X multiplier, weather-sealed, 10mpxl, DigicIII, better high ISO performance, ISO in the VF all of the time :rolleyes , better burst processing and spot metering.Who's fault is that? Certianly not Canon's. They've been chastised so many times for their pre-release 'leaks' and now it seems many are disapointed for the opposite! I guess you really can't win.

Quite frankly I think you were kidding yourself if you believed half those specs. I can't imagine why Canon would drop support for EF-S glass at this point in time in the x0D tier cameras. Maybe if there were two x0D tier cameras available at once, meaning the 20D stayed AND there was a FF/1.3x body offered in addition.

The only shocker in my opinion is the lack of the extra 2 MP. I don't think the informed consumer would give a hoot, but like Intel's marketing strategy w/ procesosrs, big numbers sell for the masses. 10MP would have made the camera more marketable. Maybe this is a sign that the market has (finally) moved past this mentality.

I read a post last night that claimed that Nikon did better w/ their D70->D70s move, that Canon should have called the camera a '20DN' or '20DmkII' inline w/ what Nikon did w/ the D70->D70s and pointed out that the D70s was far less hyped, implying that this was far more considerate to their consumers. Someone else pointed out that the D70s wasn't hyped because the specs were leaked (by way of the user's manual) well before the camera's release, so everyone and their brother knew the specs well before the announcement.

You pre-leak the specs and you get chastised for not playing by the rules and screwing camera news outlets. (I've seen Phil Askey go off about this countless times.) But if you don't say a peep and have a controlled release you get chastised for letting the hype build and not living up to it. Like I said, seems like you just can't win.

I'd be far more disapointed if they hadn't released a 20D refresh at all! I'm still impressed that they are keeping up this 18 month refresh rate. Speaking as an engineer, that's tough!

So what's next up for refit? The 350D/XT next fall I suppose. Should Canon let the hype build for the next 6 months, or beat us all to the punch and announce the expected specs now. (And torpedo all 350D sales for the next 6 months!)

[Jeffro]

I for one am always glad to see improvements in the DSLR's, even if small. I started with a Digital Rebel and never shed a tear when the 20D was introduced, I just bought it!

Now the 20D is better suited for sports and animals than landscapes, due to it's multiplication factor. Canon helped us out with a full frame option, the 5D. You can get a 20D or now a 30D and a 5D, for the same cost as a Mark II. And better yet the batteries in the 20D and 5D are the same!!

I for one am not looking for an updated 20D, but good for those who are about to make that jump. My next move, I hope, will be a 5D.

No matter what happens most of us will never have all the bells and whistles! But "whistles" will always say CANON!

[ScottMcLeod]

Nikon always seems to get beat up in forums as if it's naturally and ALWAYS the second choice because it's not 'as good'. Personally, I don't like to get caught up in the camera wars, but at least this once, hopefully people can admit that the D200 is a better all around camera than say, the 20D or 30D. That's the nearest camera you can compare it to. And to hear all this jubilation of finally having spot metering and a few other goodies...for goodness sake, Nikon had this on the D70 and Lord knows what else, for awhile now! :) Again, I hate getting into arguments about what's best, etc, etc...but this one time, I have to stand up for my boy...LOL...the D200. And boy, there were a LOT of people that were REALLY ticked off and upset that Canon didn't out-do Nikon with the new 30D...just look at some of the first posts here when it was announced! >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1019

If you're not sure of the features the D200 really has, check the online user's manual. You'd be amazed at the level of customization this camera has. From the 4 shooting menu banks (where you can preset the camera to have different options set when you select the one of the other banks) to the advanced D2x autofocus modes to the vast array of dedicated buttons and dials to access commonly used functions. Have a look: http://support.nikontech.com/cgi-bin/nikonusa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13796&p_created=1135005015&p_sid=5rUVrO*h&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfc m93X2NudD0yJnBfcHJvZHM9MTksMjE3JnBfY2F0cz0xODcmcF9 wdj0yLjIxNyZwX2N2PTEuMTg3JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd 2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1

Just this once...can a Canon user finally admit that the D200 really is a 'better' camera and has the 20D/30D beat? Come on...it's ok...you can do it...LOL

Having said that. I don't think (like many others are saying now) that the 30D is meant to directly compete with the D200. It would seem the two companies have picked a slightly different way to classify their cameras. The D200 is more of a pro camera mixed with 'some' consumer features...and note that you won't find any preset 'portrait' or 'landscape' or 'sports' modes on the D200, just like you won't find them on the D2x or the pro level Canon cameras. The 30D has some pro features, but still aims to keep the weekend soccer mom happy with the point-n-shoot'ish type of features like the different shooting modes (portrait, sports, night portrait, etc)...right on the dial.

Ok, flame me if you want...but for once, I'd just love to see a Canon user admit that Nikon has the upper hand with the D200. It's only $200 more...and all those extra features :) I just hate to see Nikon never get any credit except in Nikon only forums. It's as if we Nikon users are the red-headed step-child or something...LOL Honestly, the only thing I think Canon has on the 20/30D that's better (makes a difference) is the high ISO noise control. Other than that...just look at what the D200 has to offer. Come on, give the boy some credit ;)

And in the end, it's as always...the person taking the pictures wins - not the camera. You could give a pro a Nikon D50 and a point-n-shoot kinda guy a Canon 1Ds Mark II and the pro with the D50 would 'win' every time. So in reality, much of the mine is better than yours arguments are silly. Because unless a person can walk the walk, so to speak, the camera doesn't matter. Look at the portraits Yuri posts on here. He's got me beat bigtime!...and he's only using a Sony F707. I'll shut up now...happy shooting :thumb


I will agree that the d200 has the 20d/30d beat in form of hardware. i don't, however agree that it has a better sensor.

[kygarden]

I will agree that the d200 has the 20d/30d beat in form of hardware. i don't, however agree that it has a better sensor.

Since Sony makes the sensor, I've been wondering if it's essentially the same sensor as in the new 10.3 MP R1? Hmmm...

[DanielB]

Since Sony makes the sensor, I've been wondering if it's essentially the same sensor as in the new 10.3 MP R1? Hmmm...


Oooo i can't believe that thought didn't occur to me... it would make sense now wouldn't it...

most likely is, unless Andy or some other Guru knows different.

Speaking of R1 and Andy:

Andy,
How is your IR R1? i heard you got it...

[Cameron]

I will agree that the d200 has the 20d/30d beat in form of hardware. i don't, however agree that it has a better sensor.

It would be nice if both were found in the same camera.. oh well, competition is good for everyone!

[limbik]

Well, if I jump ship or just go 30D I still have a 20D kit with the 18-55 here to get rid of. I'd be happy to sell it here, but my guess is that none of you really want the 18-55 and I can probably get a decent amount for it on theBay. Either way, what's the best way to check clicks? I'm on folder 135 (gotta love that little 30D fix) and it appears they started at 100, so thats about 3,500 clicks best guess and I suppose I could figure it out exactly, either way, its my baby so... its still really purty...

[limbik]

This is in Canon's specs on the 30D:

Soft-touch electromagnetic release; shutter "lag time" approx. 65 msec.

Neither the 5D or the 20D list that approximate "lag time" does anyone know if it is any different by chance? I doubt it, just curious mostly.

I was happy to see it takes the same batteries and n3 remote.

[Baldy]

Well, hmmm.... My favorite shots are action and for me the 20D is mostly good enough with a 70-200 IS. Light, small, fast on... The issue is the autofocus can be a little too slow for some stuff and for that I miss the MK II.

But the MK II is heavy, expensive, and the lenses get shorter.

Don't see that the 30D helps me. What to do?

http://cmac.smugmug.com/photos/57349618-L.jpg

[pathfinder]

For sport shooting or birds, the 1DMkll is really hard to beat.:):

[ScottMcLeod]

Well, if I jump ship or just go 30D I still have a 20D kit with the 18-55 here to get rid of. I'd be happy to sell it here, but my guess is that none of you really want the 18-55 and I can probably get a decent amount for it on theBay. Either way, what's the best way to check clicks? I'm on folder 135 (gotta love that little 30D fix) and it appears they started at 100, so thats about 3,500 clicks best guess and I suppose I could figure it out exactly, either way, its my baby so... its still really purty...

I disagree. I :lust my kitty. Andy does too, I know he was trying to track one down at the same time I was.

[mercphoto]

Well, hmmm.... My favorite shots are action and for me the 20D is mostly good enough with a 70-200 IS. Light, small, fast on... The issue is the autofocus can be a little too slow for some stuff and for that I miss the MK II.

But the MK II is heavy, expensive, and the lenses get shorter.

Don't see that the 30D helps me. What to do?
I'll agree my 20D is sometimes a touch slow to AF, but in reality I miss only a small number of shots. Is that worth the price of a MkII?

Canon does say the AF algorithms are revised on the 30D, but I have not heard an explanation of what that actually means.

[limbik]

I disagree. I :lust my kitty. Andy does too, I know he was trying to track one down at the same time I was.

Well thats good I guess, because I put up for auction here...

[Baldy]

Canon does say the AF algorithms are revised on the 30D, but I have not heard an explanation of what that actually means.Researching. Here's what Rob Galbraith had to say:

Though the 9-point autofocus system and all aspects of its configuration and operation are the same as that of the 20D, the algorithm controlling autofocus in the 30D has been refined (though Canon has not revealed what has been addressed). The 20D's autofocus system is the most capable we've ever encountered in a midrange digital SLR; if you want better, you have to spend a lot more. We hope that Canon's tinkering with autofocus in the 30D only makes it a better performer than the already-capable 20D. Strangely, while many of the refinements in the 30D first appeared in the 5D last fall, the 30D did not get the 5D's 6 additional Assist AF points clustered around the centre.