40 year old argument

[rutt]

I'm very taken with this shot, so much so that I spent hours and hours retouching it to improve the compositon. I've posted it on a challenge thread and got no response. I posted in people, and did get some good feedback which led to the version you see here. But I guess I want it whipped so I can see it the way others are seeing it.

http://rutt.smugmug.com/photos/54618325-L.jpg
He just can't make it up to her, even after all this time.

[4labs]

What about the photo has you so determined? I have gone back to the photo several times because I want to feel something but it just doesn't do it for me. There is some interest in the woman's face but not enough for me to wonder what they are talking about.

[rutt]

What about the photo has you so determined? I have gone back to the photo several times because I want to feel something but it just doesn't do it for me. There is some interest in the woman's face but not enough for me to wonder what they are talking about.

The Socratic method is working. Thanks.

It's the interaction of his body language and her face. She's so unhappy and he wants so hard to fix that.

[Blurmore]

Maybe we know less than you about the faceless subject. I can't read the body langauge alone enough to point to enthusiastic apology. We don't know who's cane it is. We don't know the age of the faceless person. It looks to me like the jacketed person just walked up and sat down, and maybe she is daydreaming or reflecting on a sour memory. I think it may be a case that your emotion of experiencing the real time of the photo is shading you to the fact that contextually the emotion may not be there. Also the tight 4:5 or so vertical crop makes both look very squat and lumpy.

[rutt]

Maybe we know less than you about the faceless subject. I can't read the body langauge alone enough to point to enthusiastic apology. We don't know who's cane it is. We don't know the age of the faceless person. It looks to me like the jacketed person just walked up and sat down, and maybe she is daydreaming or reflecting on a sour memory. I think it may be a case that your emotion of experiencing the real time of the photo is shading you to the fact that contextually the emotion may not be there. Also the tight 4:5 or so vertical crop makes both look very squat and lumpy.

Thanks. I don't know these people, but I could easily be projecting. Actually, my gut says I'm not pretty strongly. But that doesn't mean the shot works. Thanks again.

[Andy]

I have studied this photograph several times this week, including technically for purposes of retouch. Rutt, you'll notice that I've said nothing about the photo up until this point. It doesn't grab me. I see that "he" is talking to "her" and she's got an expression - but he could be complaining about the weather and she could be bored to tears, for all I know. It's missing context for me.

I have the feeling that you used a long lens on this, which, as you know, is not my bag. To me, it's not a street shot, I make no connection with these folks. I feel voyeuristic. You're a big fan of HCB and many of the greats - and when I view their work, I don't feel this way. Hard to put into words... which is OK... this is a feeling or not feeling shot. You feel it. I do not.

[rutt]

Great criticism is helping me understand the limited appeal of this shot.

I thought it was just because it was a bummer, but I'm seeing that it's more.

[ginger_55]

"She's so unhappy and he wants so hard to fix that."

Rutt, I cut and pasted that from your interpretation. I think you are projecting, you are such a nice person, so helpful and intense about it. I can see where you would see that in this shot.

Now me: that is not in my personality, I did not see that. And the picture itself does not show it to me.

I really think that since the man takes up about half of the photo, and she is really not enough by herself, so you can't fix it. I think that the front of the man has to be shown, and, if he were, one could only hope that he were interesting too. To me he brings the whole photo down, and it is not fixable because of the darn man (she might know that, or I might be projecting, smile).

ginger

Interesting your interpretation there. I can see why then you would become wrapped up in the photo! (trying to fix it for her, aren't you, smile.)

[rutt]

Whipping is great. I knew this picture wasn't working for anyone other than me 'cause of the deafening silence. But I wanted to understand better why that was. Andy's word "voyeuristic" helps a lot. I guess I have to agree with that.

Blurmore's comment also helps. This shot doesn't project enough to work.

Thanks guys.

[rutt]

Thanks, Ginger. That was insightful and helpful.

So the picture might be kind of a bummer, but it's taught me a lot. That's something.

[ginger_55]

Etc. If I had been taking the photo, I would have hoped I did not have long lens on, or not a very long lens. Then I would have taken exactly the photo you did, if I had a long lens on.

I probably would have gone off somewhere in the grass, put my backpack down and taken out a wide angle lens. I would hope I would have. Then I would have gone back to those people. Unless I were terrified I would have gone to the other side and taken a photo, just moving in. (I become obsessed, or I leave. When I am obsessed I do things I would not do under any other circumstances.............and I don't always do them)

But the only way I think I could have gotten a photo there would have been with a normal to wide lens, over on the other side of them where I could see him, too. Then still I would have had to get down to their level. I could not have taken that photo without being noticed. (The very idea terrifies me as I sit here, but I am not "working" a photo)

My final shots would have been probably with me down on one knee, one of them taking up 2/3s of the shot. And perhaps the best expression of strong emotion would have been extreme annoyance at me intruding on them.

But I don't think that photo could have been taken from the side you were on, no matter the lens.

ginger

[DoctorIt]

I can't even tell it's a "he".

You're definitely projecting too much on this shot. And I have to agree with Andy, the limited field of view (from a longer lens) definitely makes it look more like a spy shot than a street shot.

Also, I didn't follow any of the retouch threads, but I hate how her hat is all soft and fuzzy. As a matter of fact, her whole face isn't nearly as sharp as the back of his head. This is a major distraction for me. I want her face to be sharp, as she is the subject, in my view. But instead, I have the back of some dude's hood in focus.

[John Mueller]

If they were holding hands,I think it would be a more powerful image:dunno

[pathfinder]

John, how about cropping the left side of the image almost at the left border of his hood, and trim just a tad off the right side near her left foot. This brings the shot to a more vertical style, and moves her head nearer the upper left 1/3 anchor point. It removes the white bag at the left which is distracting and the soda cup you carefully cloned out too.

I still think B&W might help place the emphasis on her face next to the black coat. Sharpen her face more and add a little Tri-X grain too. That might help others see what you are feeling is occurring here better. Maybe??

[gus]

Sorry rutt i see nothing at all. It lacks almost everything i look for in a photograph other than maybe a perplexed look on the woman.

[rutt]

John, how about cropping the left side of the image almost at the left border of his hood, and trim just a tad off the right side near her left foot. This brings the shot to a more vertical style, and moves her head nearer the upper left 1/3 anchor point. It removes the white bag at the left which is distracting and the soda cup you carefully cloned out too.

I still think B&W might help place the emphasis on her face next to the black coat. Sharpen her face more and add a little Tri-X grain too. That might help others see what you are feeling is occurring here better. Maybe??

Jim, it's a nice idea, but I really think it's time for me to go shoot some more. I understand why this shot isn't working for almost anyone else. It's just too ambigious and the thing I was seeing is just too ephemeral.

Time to move on.


The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it
.

[Sabastian]

This is a wonderful picture from where I stand...or sit in this matter. It reminds me of my grandfather who would just sit there while my grandmother yelled at him. We (his grandchildren) would ask why he would never speak up and his response would be......

"Why say anything? You say something she continues to yell! If you just sit and not say anything she will eventually get tired of yelling and just shut up."

Not sure if you guys got the humor in that but it reminds me of my grandparents, God bless their hearts and souls....


P.S.
And B&W would do this photo more than just a little justice...it would significantly magnify the emotion set here...

[rutt]

I'm glad there is at least one person who sees this. I guess you need to have come from a dysfunctional family...