new canon 20d observations and pics

[Andy]

hey guys,

i've posted some observations and some pics

right here (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=10273499)

[dkapp]

Congrats on the new 20D! I look forward to seeing some of your shots.

Dave

[wxwax]

Really rather good at ISO 800. Sounds like a terrific camera. I'm curious about your purchase of the 15mm. I've thought about it, but does the extra 1mm really make much of a difference, compared to your 16-35?

[Baldy]

Really rather good at ISO 800. Sounds like a terrific camera. I'm curious about your purchase of the 15mm. I've thought about it, but does the extra 1mm really make much of a difference, compared to your 16-35?I'm jealous! I wanted to be the first on the block to have one but didn't get on the stick to get it ordered.

[DewrGleision]

I'm jealous! I wanted to be the first on the block to have one but didn't get on the stick to get it ordered.
At least you can get one...

[Andy]

I'm jealous! I wanted to be the first on the block to have one but didn't get on the stick to get it ordered.


:bad

:bad

[ginger_55]

This is dumb, I know, I mean...........but I thought about it after I turned off the computer. I fell asleep thinking about it.

What do you use those high number ISOs for, Andy?

If I should have shot the "creek" at 100 ISO, nothing else.

You shot the dentist at 200, with a fisheye, lucky you! And that was because it was handheld?

But what about it being good at 400, 800, and above? When do you use them?

ginger (Are Rebels just bad at that?)

[mercphoto]

What do you use those high number ISOs for, Andy?

If I should have shot the "creek" at 100 ISO, nothing else.

You shot the dentist at 200, with a fisheye, lucky you! And that was because it was handheld?

But what about it being good at 400, 800, and above? When do you use them?

ginger (Are Rebels just bad at that?)

Here is what I do. I shoot at the lowest ISO possible. By "possible" I mean can I get an exposure at the shutter speed and aperture value I want at ISO 100? If not, try 200, then 400, then 800, then finally 1600. I will choose the aperture based on the depth of field I require, and the shutter speed based on whether I want stop-action versus motion blur, if i am hand-holding versus tri-pod, etc.

I think my Rebel does very good at ISO 100, 200 and 400. Its mediocre at 800. The only reason to use 1600 is if it is the only way to get the shot. It will be noisy. I have a Photoshop action to help deal with that, though. Don't have Noise Ninja, they don't support the Mac.

[ginger_55]

Here is what I do. I shoot at the lowest ISO possible. By "possible" I mean can I get an exposure at the shutter speed and aperture value I want at ISO 100? If not, try 200, then 400, then 800, then finally 1600. I will choose the aperture based on the depth of field I require, and the shutter speed based on whether I want stop-action versus motion blur, if i am hand-holding versus tri-pod, etc.

I think my Rebel does very good at ISO 100, 200 and 400. Its mediocre at 800. The only reason to use 1600 is if it is the only way to get the shot. It will be noisy. I have a Photoshop action to help deal with that, though. Don't have Noise Ninja, they don't support the Mac.Thanks for the response. Your photoshop action, is it a plug in? I am asking only because of the Shem Creek photo.

If it were a free thing, or something you just do, I could try it. It was shot at 400. And underexposed.

I think I am going to have an easier time when I get my Rebel back, it never worked right on the manual settings. When it quit working on aperture priority, I just quit using it, but when it wouldn't show ISO, WB, the tmer button wouldn't work, and who knows what all, on any manual type setting, I had to take my head out of the sand.

And I used it on programmable modes a lot until the last few weeks, too. I am going to have to be savvy about the ISO, AV, TV, RAW, etc. just to make sure the darn thing is working right while it is under warranty.

All the manual things were deeply ingrained in me for years, then the cameras started doing it all for me, even my last $2000.00 (or something like that) Nikon. Now I am having to learn to think again. And just before I turn 65, too. Terrible time to take up thinking.

If you have an easy thing to take care of the noise after the fact, let me know. I know you posted on my photo last night, nicely, at least I think you did, so you know what I am talking about: Shem Creek

(I have windows, but no reason to buy anything else right now, LOL. Zip.
Guess I will have to take my photos right in the future, or try.)

Smile, ginger

[mercphoto]

Thanks for the response. Your photoshop action, is it a plug in? I am asking only because of the Shem Creek photo.

If it were a free thing, or something you just do, I could try it. It was shot at 400. And underexposed.

I got it from here:
http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/DigiPhoto.html

It cost $15 I think. Its a collection of Photoshop Actions, three of which are noise reduction (in 3 levels of aggressiveness). I've been happy with the actions, but I'm no power-user of Photoshop. I do not know if better actions exist to do the same thing or not. Other actions include exposure change for JPG's, an action called "shadows" which ups the exposure of the dark areas only, and a few other widgets. I know the guy personally from my Corvette days, so I trusted buying stuff from him. :)

They are easy to use, Ginger. He tells you how to "install" them (really simple). Then to use them you grab a photo, select an action, and hit play.

[ginger_55]

I got it from here:
http://home.att.net/~ncarboni/DigiPhoto.html

It cost $15 I think. Its a collection of Photoshop Actions, three of which are noise reduction (in 3 levels of aggressiveness). I've been happy with the actions, but I'm no power-user of Photoshop. I do not know if better actions exist to do the same thing or not. Other actions include exposure change for JPG's, an action called "shadows" which ups the exposure of the dark areas only, and a few other widgets. I know the guy personally from my Corvette days, so I trusted buying stuff from him. :)

They are easy to use, Ginger. He tells you how to "install" them (really simple). Then to use them you grab a photo, select an action, and hit play.
Thanks, Bill. I bookmarked them. There is like a 30 day free trial period. I might get it and try it over the weekend...........on Shem Creek. Cartainly a picture to try it on, we have all seen it every which way.

Thanks, again,
ginger

[Andy]

This is dumb, I know, I mean...........but I thought about it after I turned off the computer. I fell asleep thinking about it.

What do you use those high number ISOs for, Andy?

If I should have shot the "creek" at 100 ISO, nothing else.

You shot the dentist at 200, with a fisheye, lucky you! And that was because it was handheld?

But what about it being good at 400, 800, and above? When do you use them?

ginger (Are Rebels just bad at that?)

ginger - i'll use high isos for indoor, lowlight photography. i'll use the lowest iso that still allows me the shutter speed and aperture combination i need to use.

so, if i'm at iso 100, and i want f/2.8, and my meter tells me 1/10th second, i'll boost the iso if i want to get to 1/30th or 1/60th sec. boost it all the way to 1600 or 3200 if i need to, say indoors covering a hockey game or gymnastics - i want a faaaaaaaast shutter speed. the only way to get there sometimes is really fast glass and a high iso.

the rebel is good at 800, repairable at 1600 (nr software). the 20d? it's super good at iso 1600!

does this help?

[ginger_55]

ginger - i'll use high isos for indoor, lowlight photography. i'll use the lowest iso that still allows me the shutter speed and aperture combination i need to use.

so, if i'm at iso 100, and i want f/2.8, and my meter tells me 1/10th second, i'll boost the iso if i want to get to 1/30th or 1/60th sec. boost it all the way to 1600 or 3200 if i need to, say indoors covering a hockey game or gymnastics - i want a faaaaaaaast shutter speed. the only way to get there sometimes is really fast glass and a high iso.

the rebel is good at 800, repairable at 1600 (nr software). the 20d? it's super good at iso 1600!

does this help?
Thanks, Andy, that was second nature to me with a film Camera, before the latest Nikon that I got in the 90s where it would go programmable, either way.

I always used fast film, never gave a thought to pushing it. But the shutter speeds, aperture, they were just second nature. Reading your info, I can tell I have gotten slack, now it requires thinking (brain pain:D ). I usually put the ISO, whatever on, I set the camera up before I leave the house.

I do have a flashlight................ I guess it will get a workout when I get my camera back.

ginger

I never shot scenics either, except on an unusual trip to the Colorado mountains one year, I got carried away. But I used tri X, this is a different mind set.

[Andy]

i posted the info here (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=10285453)

[dkapp]

Don't have Noise Ninja, they don't support the Mac.

They started supporting Mac OSX a few months ago. I used the beta for awhile before the final release, and it was great. I've not purchased it yet.

http://www.picturecode.com/download.htm

Dave

[ginger_55]

They started supporting Mac OSX a few months ago. I used the beta for awhile before the final release, and it was great. I've not purchased it yet.

http://www.picturecode.com/download.htm

Dave
Dave, how well does Noise Ninja work?

ginger

[Andy]

Dave, how well does Noise Ninja work?

ginger

i use noise ninja, works great. i also use fred miranda's isox pro. depends on my mood.

[tmlphoto]

the rebel is good at 800, repairable at 1600 (nr software). the 20d? it's super good at iso 1600!


Interesting comment Andy. I am considering upgrading from the 10D to 20D. The lower noise at higher ISO was one of the features that seemed to be worth upgrading. However, I believe it was on the Luminous Landscape site that the review stated that there was'nt a noticible improvement in the noise levels with corresponding ISO's. He even used some type of software to analyze the noise. What do you think?

[Andy]

Interesting comment Andy. I am considering upgrading from the 10D to 20D. The lower noise at higher ISO was one of the features that seemed to be worth upgrading. However, I believe it was on the Luminous Landscape site that the review stated that there was'nt a noticible improvement in the noise levels with corresponding ISO's. He even used some type of software to analyze the noise. What do you think?

for me, it's in the shots. i can't speak for the tests that some folks do. all i can say is that 1600 on the 20d looks like 800 on the 10d. 3200 on the 20d looks better than 1600 on the 10d!

[tmlphoto]

for me, it's in the shots. i can't speak for the tests that some folks do. all i can say is that 1600 on the 20d looks like 800 on the 10d. 3200 on the 20d looks better than 1600 on the 10d!
That good news. I'm on the edge of springing for the 20D. Hopefully, my local dealer will get their shipment soon. So far they aren't spoken for. BTW, I handled a 1DMKII the other day. Boy is that sucker is heavy, not to mention the price.

[Sam]

hey guys,

i've posted some observations and some pics

right here (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=10273499)
Oh crap! I have had to endure viewing fantastic photos with unique perspectives, and superb technical qualities from London to San Francisco. Now I'll have to look at them in even finer detail!

I'm gona go eat worms.......................

Sam

[ginger_55]

I'm with you, Sam. I am with you...........in spirit. Eat some worms, and then you cry. You take care of the worms.

I'll be looking at great handheld 1600 ISO shots while I am outside with a tripod, trying to figure out settings to keep my camera 100 ISO.

g

[ginger_55]

What kind of camera do you have, Sam?

On your morning walk, do you take a tripod?

ginger again

[Andy]

I'm with you, Sam. I am with you...........in spirit. Eat some worms, and then you cry. You take care of the worms.

I'll be looking at great handheld 1600 ISO shots while I am outside with a tripod, trying to figure out settings to keep my camera 100 ISO.

g

situational photography (street photography) is handheld. indoors, with low light, i'll shoot iso 1600 or now even iso 3200.

nightshots, like a citiscape, or shem creek, are best at iso 100, which dicates a tripod :D the longer exposures at high isos in the dark or fading light of nightshots, will often make even the low-noise sensors of the canon dslrs produce noisier images. so, imo, for nightshots, iso 100's best. unless you are shooting in a club or something, where you want a faster shutter speed :D

[Guzzler]

I have a hard drive full of images that are non-usable because I keep forgetting to increase the ISO. :cry

[Sam]

What kind of camera do you have, Sam?

On your morning walk, do you take a tripod?

ginger again
GHinger,

I have the 20D's red headed step child, the digital Rebel.
Morning walk? I goes to work . We gets no holidays, we works 7 days per week 24 hours per day. :D

I did buy a nice mono pod. That seems to be more convient for hiking, but not as good as a tripod, especially at the top of a mountain when your huffing like a steam locomotive. Then it seems to lunge around like a drunk on a roller coaster.:1drink

But it's a darn fine wacking tool. (Remove camera first)

Sam

[tmshots]

This is dumb, I know, I mean...........but I thought about it after I turned off the computer. I fell asleep thinking about it.

What do you use those high number ISOs for, Andy?

If I should have shot the "creek" at 100 ISO, nothing else.

You shot the dentist at 200, with a fisheye, lucky you! And that was because it was handheld?

But what about it being good at 400, 800, and above? When do you use them?

ginger (Are Rebels just bad at that?)
ISO speeds and when they are good? Not really good but needed when in an uncontrolled environment. I shoot bodybuilding and fitness shows quite a bit and we dont have a choice at times. Some lighting and stages are set where 400 is good as it gets while others are just so darn dark that 1600 is your only choice. For this monopods are a great thing to have! We are expected sometimes to be able to take incredible shots in crappy lighting, having the ISO's just allows us to (not always) take a passible picture. But that is the need for those high number ISO's
An example if I may
this was shot at 400 ISO at 1/200 shutter speed (that being because of flash) You can see that it is still a little dark and a tad soft. (forgot that ever loved monopod I mentioned). Luckly PS is around to help me out but this pic is untouched.
Well except that it was sized to load.

[winger]

This is dumb, I know, I mean...........but I thought about it after I turned off the computer. I fell asleep thinking about it.

What do you use those high number ISOs for, Andy?

If I should have shot the "creek" at 100 ISO, nothing else.

You shot the dentist at 200, with a fisheye, lucky you! And that was because it was handheld?

But what about it being good at 400, 800, and above? When do you use them?

ginger (Are Rebels just bad at that?)I shoot mostly sports and you really need the higher iso for the action. I can do some sports at lower isos, but with the rebel I find my hockey photos are uber grainy. But since the season has ended I have gotten a L-series 200 lens and my 20d is supposed to be arriving today. SO I can not wait for the first puck drop.

And I see Andy already mentioned about hockey. oh well I am not one to read through.

Hehe soccer game tommorow, I up my 20d will be up the the task.

[pathfinder]

Don't have Noise Ninja, they don't support the Mac.
Noise Ninja 2.0 does support the MAC! :1drink

See www.picturecode.com

[~Rachel~]

I am soooo envious of those with DSLR's!

[Steve Cavigliano]

Watch out what you wish for Rachel ;-)

While the image quality is much better and you can get some seriously shallow DOF's with Dslr's, there's the other side of the coin to consider. Like the money you need to spend just to board the Dslr bus. Plus, if you're anything like me (or the golf shooter Andy posted a pic of, or Andy for that matter ;-) you will always be lusting after another lens, or two (I never thought I'd be lusting after a lens, I must be getting old....lol). Where you used to be able to go out with just a cam and a tripod, you'll now be carrying a pack loaded with lenses. And of course, the shot you'd like to get will always require you to change the lens that's currently attached to the camera :rofl

Not only will you have to clean the sensor occassionally, you'll also have to clean your lenses (on both ends....lol).

Since I will be boarding that ol' Dslr bus soon, the above is a bit tongue-in-cheek ;-) But, the money part is correct. I'm trying to keep my costs under $3000 and I'm having a hard time of it. I guess I could go for a used (or even new) 10D and be able to apply $500 more towards better glass. But, I really NEED the 20D's continuous shooting capabilities (indoor and outdoor sports shooting). OK, maybe NEED is too strong of a word....lol

It sure is a great time to be a digital photography buff. Even if you can't move into the high end, right now, there are some awesome cameras to dream about :lust

Steve

[Xney]

Here is my first run around with the 20D with a the 50mm f2.5 macro lens on it. (Mostly macro shots in the batch):

http://www.xney.com/Pictures/2004-10-02-NatureMacro20D

Here is one sample:

http://www.xney.com/albums/2004-10-02-NatureMacro20D/IMG_1969.sized.jpg


So far, the 20D is an improvement on the 10D in almost all areas.

If you're a Canon DSLR owner, the 50mm macro lens is a pretty good value and good lens, too.

-Karl

[patch29]

Canon has posted a 20D firmware update here. (http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos20d/eos20d_firmware-e.html)

[mercphoto]

So far I'm very happy with auto-white-balance on my 20D. Was one of my biggest gripes on the Rebel was how often AWB failed. I will be able to shoot JPG more often in difficult situations, which is a big plus for me. I'm not a fan of shooting RAW.

Another plus is the incredibly short mirror black-out time. This is especially helpful during bursting.

And while I've only used the pop-up flash so far, ETTL-2 seems to be a big winner too. So far I'm happy with the 20D.

[mercphoto]

Some sample images from my new Canon 20D. Mostly done with a 28-135 lens, though a few were with a 70-200/2.8. All were with auto white balance, captured JPG in-camera (large fine). A range of ISO's, a range of lighting conditions, some with the pop-up flash. No post-processing whatsoever.

http://mercphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/241605

[Steve Cavigliano]

Bill,

They look really nice to me. How do they look to you?

I'm pretty impressed with the lack of noise in the ISO1600 still life and with the DR in the cat and white goose shots. If I wasn't already going to buy a 20D, these shots would help cement my choice:smile6

I think you should call in sick tomorrow morning. Just tell them that your camera needs to spend some more quality time with you.....lol

Steve

[mercphoto]

Bill,

They look really nice to me. How do they look to you?

I'm very happy as well. The AWB seems to actually work. ISO 800 is very usable, as is 1600. Impressive. Nice image quality.

Weather permitting, 7th grade football tomorrow night, dirt bikes on Saturday.

[leebase]

What do you use those high number ISOs for, Andy?
For shots like this:

http://leebase.smugmug.com/photos/9407874-M.jpg

ISO 3200 -- allowed me to shoot indoors without flash and at f/4 instead of f2.8 at 1600. Being able to do so in a low noise manner is a real treat!

Lee

[wxwax]

Canon has posted a 20D firmware update here. (http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos20d/eos20d_firmware-e.html)

What does it fix?

[wxwax]

For shots like this:

http://leebase.smugmug.com/photos/9407874-M.jpg

ISO 3200 -- allowed me to shoot indoors without flash and at f/4 instead of f2.8 at 1600. Being able to do so in a low noise manner is a real treat!

Lee

Wow, that was at 3200? Amazing.

[patch29]

Canon has posted a 20D firmware update here. (http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos20d/eos20d_firmware-e.html)

Check again, they released 1.0.5, to fix a bug with 1.0.4.

[patch29]

What does it fix?

This firmware fixes the problem of the shutter release not working when a lens is removed or a lens is attached when the camera is in auto power off mode, and improves the reliability when using some CF cards..

[pathfinder]

.


I updated my 20D to firmware 1.0.5 this morning. When I first tried to update the firmware, I had the extracted firmware file to a 16 Mb Lexar card, and this seemed to crash the update sequence in my 20D, such that I had to remove the battery to turn it off. And the update failed - Thabkfully this did not seem to harm the camera. Hmmm....

Anyway I wrote the firmware file to a Sandisk 256 Mb card and everything went just fine. Camera still works and lists the firmware now as 1.0.5

If you elect to update your firmware to 1.0.5 - REMEMBER - Remove ANY lens from the camera first - this seems to confuse things on some updates per Canon's website - that was why the quik upgrade from 1.0.4 to 1.0.5. :dunno

[ian408]

I spent some time reading the 20d review today (at work). The images look
great. Some of the features are clearly better than the 10d.

But one question, why not a 1Ds MKII instead?

Ian

[pathfinder]

I spent some time reading the 20d review today (at work). The images look
great. Some of the features are clearly better than the 10d.

But one question, why not a 1Ds MKII instead?

Ian

You're putting me on, right!?? :D
The 1DsMkll is not available yet, and will retail for $8,000, vs $1500 for the 20D. Also the 20D is much smaller and lighter to carry around as well. If price and weight are not a concern, then certainly the 1DsMKll will remain the epitome of the digital full 35mm frame DSLR. :clap

[leebase]

I spent some time reading the 20d review today (at work). The images look
great. Some of the features are clearly better than the 10d.

But one question, why not a 1Ds MKII instead?
Money.

Lee

[ian408]

You're putting me on, right!?? :D
The 1DsMkll is not available yet, and will retail for $8,000, vs $1500 for the 20D. Also the 20D is much smaller and lighter to carry around as well. If price and weight are not a concern, then certainly the 1DsMKll will remain the epitome of the digital full 35mm frame DSLR. :clap
I was thinking more from a pro vs. consumer perspective. If you look at the sports guys, they're all using 1D's of some flavor or another.

But then again, maybe at some level, it matters more who is taking the shot
than what they use to take it?

Ian

[mercphoto]

I was thinking more from a pro vs. consumer perspective. If you look at the sports guys, they're all using 1D's of some flavor or another.

But then again, maybe at some level, it matters more who is taking the shot than what they use to take it?

To some degree, yes. On the other hand, there is a reason why the pros spend the bucks on a 1-series camera. Very, very fast and accurate auto-focus. Excellent moving subject tracking. Lots of focus points. Very fast bursting. Built-in grip. All these things mean a 1-series will create better images with a higher "hit rate" (ie. a higher percentage of the shots are usuable).

[ian408]

To some degree, yes. On the other hand, there is a reason why the pros spend the bucks on a 1-series camera. Very, very fast and accurate auto-focus. Excellent moving subject tracking. Lots of focus points. Very fast bursting. Built-in grip. All these things mean a 1-series will create better images with a higher "hit rate" (ie. a higher percentage of the shots are usuable).
I might be mixing my reviews but I thought the 20d had improved AF and higher
frame rate? The grip for the 20d is "only" US$169. Plus batteries :)

Ian

[mercphoto]

I might be mixing my reviews but I thought the 20d had improved AF and higher
frame rate? The grip for the 20d is "only" US$169. Plus batteries :)

Improved AF? Yes. But not to Mark-II standards. Ditto on frame rate, better but not as fast (5 versus 8.5). Buffer depth on 20D is also smaller. Built-in grips feel more solid than bolt-ons, but a bolt-on can be removed to make the camera smaller.

In my opinion, the 20D is a baby Mark-II more than it is an improved 10D. The 20D might make all but the hard-core Mark-II fans wonder why they don't have three 20D's versus one Mark-II. :)

[ShebaJo]

I updated my 20D to firmware 1.0.5 this morning. When I first tried to update the firmware, I had the extracted firmware file to a 16 Mb Lexar card, and this seemed to crash the update sequence in my 20D, such that I had to remove the battery to turn it off. And the update failed - Thabkfully this did not seem to harm the camera. Hmmm....

Anyway I wrote the firmware file to a Sandisk 256 Mb card and everything went just fine. Camera still works and lists the firmware now as 1.0.5

If you elect to update your firmware to 1.0.5 - REMEMBER - Remove ANY lens from the camera first - this seems to confuse things on some updates per Canon's website - that was why the quik upgrade from 1.0.4 to 1.0.5. :dunno
I just got my 20D Sunday, 1st dSLR... comments about firmware updates are making me nervous. Any tips for a 1st time updater? Is it something that should be done asap, or ok to wait a bit till I am more comfortable with the camera? Thanks (by the way, this is my 1st post, hope its right) Sheila

[ian408]

In my opinion, the 20D is a baby Mark-II more than it is an improved 10D. The 20D might make all but the hard-core Mark-II fans wonder why they don't have three 20D's versus one Mark-II. :)
I think this sums it up nicely. And the delta in price means you can afford to
upgrade as technology changes.

Ian

[ian408]

I just got my 20D Sunday, 1st dSLR... comments about firmware updates are making me nervous. Any tips for a 1st time updater? Is it something that should be done asap, or ok to wait a bit till I am more comfortable with the camera? Thanks (by the way, this is my 1st post, hope its right) Sheila
The instructions are pretty straight forward.

If this is your first time, download the new software. Print a copy of the
instructions and read through them as many times as it takes to make you
feel comfortable. You can "practice" if you like but the process is really
quite simple.

Ian

[pathfinder]

Improved AF? Yes. But not to Mark-II standards. Ditto on frame rate, better but not as fast (5 versus 8.5). Buffer depth on 20D is also smaller. Built-in grips feel more solid than bolt-ons, but a bolt-on can be removed to make the camera smaller.

In my opinion, the 20D is a baby Mark-II more than it is an improved 10D. The 20D might make all but the hard-core Mark-II fans wonder why they don't have three 20D's versus one Mark-II. :)

A big difference between the 20D and the 1DMkll or the 1DsMkll is that the 1 series cameras have a substantially brighter image through the viewfinder and the viewfinder allows interchangeable focus screens to allow manual focus. This is not too signficant for most amateurs, but if you need to use the Tilt&shift lenses that Canon makes - autofocus may not work well when they are shifted - they may need to be manually focused. The 20D does not offer interchangeable viewfinder screens. The 1 series also allow simultaneous recording of images on CF and SD cards so that there is more than one copy of the images being stored. This may be important for photographers who are being paid to deliver the goods.

The view through the 20D viewfinder is not real bright either, but won't be noticed by most folks unless they have a 1series camera to compare it too. The autofocus on the 20D is signifcantly faster than the 10D, but is also definately slower than a 1DMkll. On the other hand, the 20D is much smaller and ligher than the 1DMkll. And it is 1/3 the price.

I think the poster is correct that for busy working photo-journalists that the robust build and features of the 1DMkll or the 1DsMkll will prevail. But for those folks for whom the camera is NOT a tool to generate revenue will look at the equation differently and favor a 20D. Both will make excellent images in the hands of a skilled user.

One of the bads things about owning really nice cameras, is that then people expect you to produce excellent images, and in the hands of one unwilling to do the leg work, those nice cameras just create a lot of poor high quality snapshots. :D

[mercphoto]

I think the poster is correct that for busy working photo-journalists that the robust build and features of the 1DMkll or the 1DsMkll will prevail. But for those folks for whom the camera is NOT a tool to generate revenue will look at the equation differently and favor a 20D. Both will make excellent images in the hands of a skilled user.

What is the difference between the 1D and the 1Ds line of cameras? What does the "s" signify?

[tmlphoto]

What is the difference between the 1D and the 1Ds line of cameras? What does the "s" signify?
I'm no expert, but here what I know (or think I know :D ). The 1D series is based on a detector that is smaller than film, thus the 1.3 conversion factor. The 1Ds series is based on a full sized detector = to a 35mm negative size, so no conversion factor. The 1Ds is the high megapixel, was 11 , now 16mp, camera marketed to landscape and portrait photogs that want every pixel possible, but don't need the speed of the 1D. The 1D is marketed as the sports/photojournalism camera for those that want high frames/sec, but don't need the extra pixels. No clue about the "s".

[pathfinder]

I'm no expert, but here what I know (or think I know :D ). The 1D series is based on a detector that is smaller than film, thus the 1.3 conversion factor. The 1Ds series is based on a full sized detector = to a 35mm negative size, so no conversion factor. The 1Ds is the high megapixel, was 11 , now 16mp, camera marketed to landscape and portrait photogs that want every pixel possible, but don't need the speed of the 1D. The 1D is marketed as the sports/photojournalism camera for those that want high frames/sec, but don't need the extra pixels. No clue about the "s".

I could not have said it better Thomas :1drink

I don't know what the 's' stands for either :dunno But your description of the potential users of the 1DMkll and the 1DsMkll are what is generally accepted as verbatim. The 1D and the 1Ds (Mkll versions) are described as having world class build quality suitable for hard daily professional useage.

[pathfinder]

I just got my 20D Sunday, 1st dSLR... comments about firmware updates are making me nervous. Any tips for a 1st time updater? Is it something that should be done asap, or ok to wait a bit till I am more comfortable with the camera? Thanks (by the way, this is my 1st post, hope its right) Sheila

Don't let my experience worry you too much, Sheila. Go here http://www.dpreview.com/news/0410/04100701canon_eos20dfw105.asp and you can read about installing the firmware update and find the link to the Canon firmware download link. After the file is downloaded, clicking on it will cause it to create a folder with the actual firmware file which you will then copy to a formatted CF card.

The Canon website has the task described in great detail - just follow the bouncing ball so to speak.:D here http://www.canon.co.jp/Imaging/eos20d/eos20d_firmware-e.html

One point I would like to emphasize and this is not real obvious - YOU MUST DO THE UPDATING OF FIRMWARE ON THE 20D WITH NO LENS IN PLACE ON THE CAMERA BODY - for some reason, some people had difficulty upgrading the firmware with a lens in place on the body, so Canon is recommending removing the lens and replacing it with the black lens mount cover that came with the 20D.

As I said - my inital trial at upgrading with a Lexar 16MbCF chip did not seem to work and I had to remove the battery to stop the drive light on the camera - I was a little concerned, but i just reinstalled the battery and used a Sandisk 512Mb card and things went as advertised. My camera works fine and now list firmware 1.0.5
:1drink

[Andy]

i too, followed canon's instructions and had no probs with the firmware update.

it's a cinch



Don't let my experience worry you too much, Sheila. Go here http://www.dpreview.com/news/0410/04100701canon_eos20dfw105.asp and you can read about installing the firmware update and find the link to the Canon firmware download link. After the file is downloaded, clicking on it will cause it to create a folder with the actual firmware file which you will then copy to a formatted CF card.

The Canon website has the task described in great detail - just follow the bouncing ball so to speak.:D here http://www.canon.co.jp/Imaging/eos20d/eos20d_firmware-e.html

One point I would like to emphasize and this is not real obvious - YOU MUST DO THE UPDATING OF FIRMWARE ON THE 20D WITH NO LENS IN PLACE ON THE CAMERA BODY - for some reason, some people had difficulty upgrading the firmware with a lens in place on the body, so Canon is recommending removing the lens and replacing it with the black lens mount cover that came with the 20D.

As I said - my inital trial at upgrading with a Lexar 16MbCF chip did not seem to work and I had to remove the battery to stop the drive light on the camera - I was a little concerned, but i just reinstalled the battery and used a Sandisk 512Mb card and things went as advertised. My camera works fine and now list firmware 1.0.5
:1drink

[ShebaJo]

As I said - my inital trial at upgrading with a Lexar 16MbCF chip did not seem to work and I had to remove the battery to stop the drive light on the camera - I was a little concerned, but i just reinstalled the battery and used a Sandisk 512Mb card and things went as advertised. My camera works fine and now list firmware 1.0.5
:1drink

This is probably a dumb question...but... Like I said... I am NEW at this.
is it ok to use the same cf card I am shooting pics on if the card has no pics? Or should I have a second card for the firmware updates?
Thanks...Sheila:smile6

[ian408]

This is probably a dumb question...but... Like I said... I am NEW at this.
is it ok to use the same cf card I am shooting pics on if the card has no pics? Or should I have a second card for the firmware updates?
Thanks...Sheila:smile6
It's ok to use the same card. I would suggest you format the card (using the
camera) first.

BTW, it never hurts to have a spare card or so.

Ian

[mercphoto]

Format the card in the camera, then remove it. Put it in a card reader on your computer. Copy the firmware file to the root level of the card, dismount the card from your computer, then put it back in the camera. The instructions don't say so, but I set the camera to not self-power-off. The rest of Canon's instructions are pretty simple. It was really a painless procedure. I was surprised, seeing as how the camera runs a modified version of DOS, that it appeared to work as pain-free as my Macintosh. :)