Themes

[cybercrypt13]

Is there anywhere that we can find more varied themes? Everyone's website on smugmug looks very similar to everyone elses. Can we write our own themes or are there templates out there that can be gotten to change the look and feel of the site?

Where would I go to learn about this?

Thanks

glenn

[Andy]

Is there anywhere that we can find more varied themes? Everyone's website on smugmug looks very similar to everyone elses. Can we write our own themes or are there templates out there that can be gotten to change the look and feel of the site?

Where would I go to learn about this?

Thanks

glenn

right here on digital grin. do these all look the same? :wink (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=179232&postcount=4)

moving this to the smugmug customization forum.

[Mike Lane]

Rome wasn't built in a day ;)

Rest assured there are people working on themes. I know that for a fact.

[cybercrypt13]

right here on digital grin. do these all look the same? :wink (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=179232&postcount=4)

moving this to the smugmug customization forum.
Actually yes, they are all based on similar themes and layouts but you really didn't answer my question. Where did they get their different layouts? Are they having to do their own CSS tricks in the little square box on the customs page or is there other methods that can be used instead?

The reason I'm asking is that when I go to themes in control panel there are only 4 things to choose from. I'm wanting to know if there is a way to add to that list. Most other sites allow you to download other schemes into your control panel that you can then choose between. Just wondering what is available with your site as I don't see much about it in help..

thanks,

glenn

[jfriend]

Actually yes, they are all based on similar themes and layouts but you really didn't answer my question. Where did they get their different layouts? Are they having to do their own CSS tricks in the little square box on the customs page or is there other methods that can be used instead?

The reason I'm asking is that when I go to themes in control panel there are only 4 things to choose from. I'm wanting to know if there is a way to add to that list. Most other sites allow you to download other schemes into your control panel that you can then choose between. Just wondering what is available with your site as I don't see much about it in help..

thanks,

glenn If you go to your own control panel, choose the "themes" link, you will be able to create your own themes that will then appear in the drop-down list for you.

[cybercrypt13]

If you go to your own control panel, choose the "themes" link, you will be able to create your own themes that will then appear in the drop-down list for you.

--John
Ok, then the answer is that Smugmug only has 4 themes and doesn't support others.

So where can I find a tutorial on writing my own theme?

THanks,

glenn

[Andy]

Most other sites allow you to download other schemes into your control panel that you can then choose between. Just wondering what is available with your site as I don't see much about it in help..


glenn, would you mind elaborating, which sites, what level of themes can be chosen? :ear i'd very much like to see examples of this, thanks...

Ok, then the answer is that Smugmug only has 4 themes and doesn't support others.
glenn

glenn - themes are brand-spanking new. in fact, we're actively seeking theme designers (http://blogs.smugmug.com/onethumb/).

theme bounties explained (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=19029&highlight=bounties)

more (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=21267)

and yet more... (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=20850)

so, you can see that the plan is to have lots and lots of themes. but it takes a little time, and we appreciate your patience while new themes roll out.

regarding styling your own page, this is an excellent resource right here in this forum (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=20742) and i encourage you to take a look, get started, and of course, post your questions.

i also encourage you to look at the links to customized sites - they're all unique in their own way.

looking forward to seeing what you create, please holler with any and all questions - we're here to help.

hope this is helpful,

[Mike Lane]

Ok, then the answer is that Smugmug only has 4 themes and doesn't support others.

So where can I find a tutorial on writing my own theme?

THanks,

glenn
Bigwebguy is working on one, Pat.Kane has a wedding one in the works, I'm just starting on a nice black one (based on http://joannah.smugmug.com/). Join the theme creating party!!! There are plenty of threads on how to do CSS and how to do CSS with themes specifically in this very room:D

[jfriend]

Ok, then the answer is that Smugmug only has 4 themes and doesn't support others.

So where can I find a tutorial on writing my own theme?

THanks,

glenn Boy, I've been patiently reading your postings in the last 10 days. And, I'm amazed that the smugmug folks have been as patient with you as they have. You are getting awesome support here, but you sound like you are constantly grumpy and mad. Is that what you intend?

The "answer" (as you phrased it) is that smugmug supports an infinite number of themes.

Themes were just launched as a concept only a few weeks ago. When they were launched there were 3 built-in themes. Since then one more has been added. Lots more are under construction. It's a brand new concept. You can customize any gallery or galleries by writing your own CSS and now with the theme concept, you can save your own CSS as a theme which you can then easily use on any of your galleries. In time, there may be posted themes outside of smugmug that you can copy into your own themes. For now, the good ones that people intend to share are getting finished so they can be submitted directly to smugmug as one of the built-in themes. I expect that program won't last forever and, at some point, there will be 3rd party posted themes that you can copy/paste. Since the whole theme concept was only launched a few weeks ago that hasn't happened yet.

If you want to make your own themes, you should read the various sticky threads in this forum and get yourself a good book on CSS and then ask detailed questions here in the forum.

[cybercrypt13]

glenn, would you mind elaborating, which sites, what level of themes can be chosen? :ear i'd very much like to see examples of this, thanks...


Andy, thanks, I'll check out the link you provided and figure it out. As for other sites that allow you to do this sort of thing I can only give examples because they would all require admin access to see how they work. One obvious instance is just about any newsgroup such as this. They usually have many hundreds of different layouts (themes) that you can choose from.

I am new to your site so I don't know how long things have been around doing what so I apologize if I sounded impatient. I have just come to expect certain things existing and didn't know whether they were being ignored or just missed.

The control panel on your system seems to only allow customization at the level of modifying CSS processes and that really doens't allow for very much flexibility. Most other systems actually provide a core system that for instance your forum would use, and then provide templates that consist of many other support files and processes that run on top of that core system. As a result, you can litterally change every aspect of the site.

These other systems also allow you access to the template files on your site so you can modify them directly instead of having to do all your work in the html text boxes which really is quite difficult to use when trying to lay something out.

Because I don't know the layout and can't find any information in help on the subject it just gets a little frustrating.

Thanks,

[cybercrypt13]

Boy, I've been patiently reading your postings in the last 10 days. And, I'm amazed that the smugmug folks have been as patient with you as they have. You are getting awesome support here, but you sound like you are constantly grumpy and mad. Is that what you intend?

The "answer" (as you phrased it) is that smugmug supports an infinite number of themes.
I apologize if it seems that way. Typing communications looses any personalization and its very easy to read something into typed words that were never meant to be stressed any particular way. I am not upset but actually very happy with things but am trying to learn the details of what are and are not available. Being able to backup my entire site to get it back to its current state if hardware failures happens ia a huge concern. Being able to customize my site is also a concern.

I am spending lots of time laying things out and want to have as great a solution for my customers as possible. As such I'm trying to learn. CSS is a great tool but I think that you guys made a mistake taking that approach from a customizable solution perspective. The reason is that while CSS allows you to change certain aspects of the site, it does not allow for many things that some of your more advanced customers may like to do.

Again, I apologize if I've offended you..

[jfriend]

I apologize if it seems that way. Typing communications looses any personalization and its very easy to read something into typed words that were never meant to be stressed any particular way. I am not upset but actually very happy with things but am trying to learn the details of what are and are not available. Being able to backup my entire site to get it back to its current state if hardware failures happens ia a huge concern. Being able to customize my site is also a concern.

I am spending lots of time laying things out and want to have as great a solution for my customers as possible. As such I'm trying to learn. CSS is a great tool but I think that you guys made a mistake taking that approach from a customizable solution perspective. The reason is that while CSS allows you to change certain aspects of the site, it does not allow for many things that some of your more advanced customers may like to do.

Again, I apologize if I've offended you..
You haven't really offended me, it more just seemed that you weren't very happy with the smugmug service and weren't very appreciative of the help you were getting or the capabilities that they do have. I agree it is hard to catch someone's intended tone in an online forum.

I also agree that CSS isn't the ultimate customizing tool. While you can do a lot with it and people are just starting to scratch the surface with what can be done with the first round of themes, you can't do as much as you can with true customizable templates like some of the blogs use.

Hopefully smugmug will get there someday - I've asked for it. There are other photo services that offer true templates with basically no bounds to customization. When I've looked at them, they are either a lot more expensive or lacking a lot of the other features that smugmug has so they didn't measure up to my needs. Meanwhile, there's a lot you can do with CSS if you learn it and learn how to manipulate the smugmug format with it.

On the backup thing, I was surprised that the smugmug folks didn't just say: "I understand why you might want the ability to capture all your various settings in your site on a backup DVD. While we do let you backup the irreplacable parts (images and gallery organization), info beyond that isn't currently a feature of smugmug, sorry."

Hopefully the smugmug folks will see your feature request and consider it for some future release. If you want to make sure they see it, then you should send it to the help email address, since this forum is staffed mostly by volunteers and is not official smugmug support (though several smugmug employees do read and post here frequently).

Just so there's no confusion here, I'm just a smugmug customer who hangs out here in the forum, I don't work for smugmug.

Good luck in building out your site.

[Mike Lane]

The reason is that while CSS allows you to change certain aspects of the site, it does not allow for many things that some of your more advanced customers may like to do.
Like what?

[Andy]

On the backup thing, I was surprised that the smugmug folks didn't just say: "I understand why you might want the ability to capture all your various settings in your site on a backup DVD. While we do let you backup the irreplacable parts (images and gallery organization), info beyond that isn't currently a feature of smugmug, sorry."

like this... (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=187478&postcount=9) thanks

[cybercrypt13]

Like what?
LOL, I was waiting for that...

Well, its hard to really get into when you are not a CSS expert. I do know CSS and I have used it a good bit, but I find that a mixture of it and php is always needed to pull off the perfect site. Being able to literally change the content of the site completely usually requires access to the pages html/java. CSS is a layout tool to control more of the visual aspect of how a site is displayed. To use it as the sole mechanism as to the actual content itself while to some degree may be possible, requires a lot more work on the part of the end user than say opening a php file and making a quick change to a single item.

Using CSS also causes us to be tied 100% to smugmugs ability to classify all aspects of the site that we might want to change.

For example: Lets say that I would like to place google ads on my site in order to bring in extra revenue. With a true template based system this is very easy. Open the page you wish your add placed on, define where you'd like it to show up and copy your code in. Using CSS its not as straight forward and may be impossible depending on how the actual pages are laid out and how they interact with CSS.

I'm sure that to some degree we could sit down and plot things out with both methods, but in the end, the php/html solution will be much easier to follow and will leave room for others to modify and expand things much easier.

Just my 2 cents.

[cybercrypt13]

like this... (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=187478&postcount=9) thanks
Andy,

Do I need to do as he suggested and email support on this backup suggestion or have you already taken care of letting them know? It seems to me a huge issue that has been overlooked.

Thanks,

[Andy]

Andy,

Do I need to do as he suggested and email support on this backup suggestion or have you already taken care of letting them know? It seems to me a huge issue that has been overlooked.

Thanks,

Hi again, Glenn - actually, you've already let them know.. but you're certainly welcome to email help@smugmug.com anytime - but since Baldy's one of the founders of the company, I'm not sure that you'll get a different answer than the one he already gave :D

I wish I had a better answer for you,

[cybercrypt13]

Hi again, Glenn - actually, you've already let them know.. but you're certainly welcome to email help@smugmug.com anytime - but since Baldy's one of the founders of the company, I'm not sure that you'll get a different answer than the one he already gave :D

I wish I had a better answer for you,
Well that is somewhat disappointing. I had also commented on that other backup thread and never got a response from anyone.

Thanks again,

[Andy]

Just my 2 cents.

Hello Glenn,

One of the things that must be considered here, is that we must be able to support huge numbers of customers in a world-class manner. In order to do that, the customization that's allowed is pre-determined in such a way that when it's released to tens of thousands of customers that it will be able to be supported in an efficient manner. What we've got now, fits this quite well. Smugmug is constantly innovating (http://blogs.smugmug.com/release-notes/), and so this type of feedback from customers is really worthwhile - thank you very much for taking the time to post it.

Oh and there are smugmug sites with google ads placed on them already... just fyi.

[Andy]

Well that is somewhat disappointing. I had also commented on that other backup thread and never got a response from anyone.

Thanks again,


Hello Again, Glenn,

I'm sorry - the forum is very busy and we do our best to keep track. Here on the forum, we very much try to be on top of the threads. And you can see by the responses you've been getting, that it works. I wish it were faster for you. You might consider this thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=9410) and emailing help@smugmug.com with urgent questions, as the response from the growing smugmug customer support group is really fast - often within 15 minutes, and most always within an hour ... and rarely longer (http://www.smugmug.com/help/emailreal).

All the best,

[cybercrypt13]

Hello Again, Glenn,

I'm sorry - the forum is very busy and we do our best to keep track. Here on the forum, we very much try to be on top of the threads. And you can see by the responses you've been getting, that it works. I wish it were faster for you. You might consider this thread (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=9410) and emailing help@smugmug.com with urgent questions, as the response from the growing smugmug customer support group is really fast - often within 15 minutes, and most always within an hour ... and rarely longer (http://www.smugmug.com/help/emailreal).

All the best,
I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. I am very impressed with the level of support so far. I was only stating that in case you had missed it as I know things tend to float off the list pretty quickly...

By the way, what just happened? All the smugmug sites were down for about 5 or 10 minutes...

[Barb]

LOL, I was waiting for that...

Well, its hard to really get into when you are not a CSS expert. I do know CSS and I have used it a good bit, but I find that a mixture of it and php is always needed to pull off the perfect site. Being able to literally change the content of the site completely usually requires access to the pages html/java. CSS is a layout tool to control more of the visual aspect of how a site is displayed. To use it as the sole mechanism as to the actual content itself while to some degree may be possible, requires a lot more work on the part of the end user than say opening a php file and making a quick change to a single item.

Using CSS also causes us to be tied 100% to smugmugs ability to classify all aspects of the site that we might want to change.

For example: Lets say that I would like to place google ads on my site in order to bring in extra revenue. With a true template based system this is very easy. Open the page you wish your add placed on, define where you'd like it to show up and copy your code in. Using CSS its not as straight forward and may be impossible depending on how the actual pages are laid out and how they interact with CSS.

I'm sure that to some degree we could sit down and plot things out with both methods, but in the end, the php/html solution will be much easier to follow and will leave room for others to modify and expand things much easier.

Just my 2 cents.
You may be interested in what has been done on the front page of my site. Just a small example of what CAN be done with CSS :)

[Mike Lane]

LOL, I was waiting for that...

Well, its hard to really get into when you are not a CSS expert. I do know CSS and I have used it a good bit, but I find that a mixture of it and php is always needed to pull off the perfect site. Being able to literally change the content of the site completely usually requires access to the pages html/java. CSS is a layout tool to control more of the visual aspect of how a site is displayed. To use it as the sole mechanism as to the actual content itself while to some degree may be possible, requires a lot more work on the part of the end user than say opening a php file and making a quick change to a single item.

Using CSS also causes us to be tied 100% to smugmugs ability to classify all aspects of the site that we might want to change.

For example: Lets say that I would like to place google ads on my site in order to bring in extra revenue. With a true template based system this is very easy. Open the page you wish your add placed on, define where you'd like it to show up and copy your code in. Using CSS its not as straight forward and may be impossible depending on how the actual pages are laid out and how they interact with CSS.

I'm sure that to some degree we could sit down and plot things out with both methods, but in the end, the php/html solution will be much easier to follow and will leave room for others to modify and expand things much easier.

Just my 2 cents.
You certainly don't need php for any of that. Any power and pro user has the ability to add html and javascript to a page so the google addsense thing is taken care of. With respect to themes, I can guarantee you that smugmug has gone overboard with tagging items (just take a look at that source code!) I promise you there are way more than enough ways for you to hook in your CSS with the page. You are limited to what content you can add to the main portions of the page (the things that you cannot get to using your header or footer boxes), but remember Smugmug is not a hosting provider a la godaddy.com. They are providing a service. That service is an excellent and highly customizeable photo sharing front end that gives users the ability to share pictures and/or to allow the purchase of pictures over the internet.

I too agree that using modules (php server side includes or ajax or rails or whatever) in a similar way as a wordpress blog does would be quite interesting. But then again, I see how much trouble people have with the most basic CSS and I realize that would probably be a bad move ... at least at this point (if ever). My point is that you should try to deal with what you've got. If you're a power or pro user you can add custom html and javascript elements as well as CSS. You can make your page look far, far different than any other smugmug page by using a combination of those elements. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that you can get the exact page that you want by using those methods.

I'd put smugmug's customization capabilities in a blind taste test with any other service's customization capabilities any day of the week (and twice on Sundays). The only way you're going to be able to get anything better is if you head to your local Borders and Noble and buy a book on PHP and mySQL, imagemagick, javascript, xhtml, css and then go and set up your own server and get to coding. Good luck at spending less than $100 that year (or any year thereafter). That's just for the page presentation, good luck with interfacing so well with ezprints and setting up the ecommerce site too.

[cybercrypt13]

Mike, I have accepted the way you do things, however, you shouldn't be blind to facts. There are other services out there that I looked at that compete with smugmug. While I didn't choose them for various reasons, there are some that have very sweet front ends to their layout that you can customize quite a bit. So while I see your point, I think that you are a little off to say that smugmug is hands down the most customizable.

That said, smugmug is currently the best solution for photographers that I've seen.

We can stop this thread any time though as I have moved on. I was only asking questions and I don't want this to get out of hand.

Sorry if I offended anyone or made any of you think I was upset...

[jfriend]

You may be interested in what has been done on the front page of my site. Just a small example of what CAN be done with CSS :)
Barb, I like your homepage a lot, but in fairness, you didn't do your home page with just CSS, did you? If I understand your home page properly, what we see on that page (http://www.photoscapedesign.com/) is actually your own custom header HTML combined with some JavaScript and is not CSS restyling of the regular smugmug home page images at all. When we look at your page, we aren't seeing one bit of smugmug HTML, it's all your own HTML. In fact, you hide all aspects of the pre-existing smugmug homepage and completely replace it with your own HTML.

What you've shown is an example of how all of smugmug's UI can be replaced (for some purposes, not all) and you can use CSS to hide everything. But, to Glenn's point, this could have been even easier to do if you didn't have to throw away everything smugmug put on the page and, could instead, just customize the actual HTML template that was generating the page (like many blogs let you do).

[Barb]

Barb, I like your homepage a lot, but in fairness, you didn't do your home page with just CSS, did you? If I understand your home page properly, what we see on that page (http://www.photoscapedesign.com/) is actually your own custom header HTML combined with some JavaScript and is not CSS restyling of the regular smugmug home page images at all. When we look at your page, we aren't seeing one bit of smugmug HTML, it's all your own HTML. In fact, you hide all aspects of the pre-existing smugmug homepage and completely replace it with your own HTML.

What you've shown is an example of how all of smugmug's UI can be replaced (for some purposes, not all) and you can use CSS to hide everything. But, to Glenn's point, this could have been even easier to do if you didn't have to throw away everything smugmug put on the page and, could instead, just customize the actual HTML template that was generating the page (like many blogs let you do).

All over my head. I was just giving him an example of what can be done at Smugmug.

[Mike Lane]

Barb, I like your homepage a lot, but in fairness, you didn't do your home page with just CSS, did you? If I understand your home page properly, what we see on that page (http://www.photoscapedesign.com/) is actually your own custom header HTML combined with some JavaScript and is not CSS restyling of the regular smugmug home page images at all. When we look at your page, we aren't seeing one bit of smugmug HTML, it's all your own HTML. In fact, you hide all aspects of the pre-existing smugmug homepage and completely replace it with your own HTML.

What you've shown is an example of how all of smugmug's UI can be replaced (for some purposes, not all) and you can use CSS to hide everything. But, to Glenn's point, this could have been even easier to do if you didn't have to throw away everything smugmug put on the page and, could instead, just customize the actual HTML template that was generating the page (like many blogs let you do).
I did Barb's page. The javascript is nothing but a means of doing the remote rollovers. It's got nothing to do with the layout of the page at all. So yes, everything with regard to layout was done with html and css. When barb is logged in she sees the rest of the smugmug page. When a viewer who isn't logged in looks at the page all they see is the one little box.

Honestly, display:none isn't all that difficult of a thing to do, I promise. You are right, many blogs (like wordpress and moveable type) let you use php and server side includes that let you dynamically input content. The catch? You have to host those blogs on your own for pay servers. Smugmug is a photo sharing site not a website hosting site. The former is cheap (unlimited storage, tons of bandwidth, ease of use) the latter is expensive (base monthly rates at least $10 a month - and then only for very limited storage and bandwidth - and that doesn't include any ecommerce security features, the storage is limited, the pages aren't built for you, etc.) So while it is absolutely possible to do something like smugmug with php on your own server, the point is that you couldn't do it for $100 a year. Smugmug couldn't offer something like that to you for $100 a year even if they wanted to. So while I see the point, the corrollary to that point must also be understood.

[Mike Lane]

Mike, I have accepted the way you do things, however, you shouldn't be blind to facts. There are other services out there that I looked at that compete with smugmug. While I didn't choose them for various reasons, there are some that have very sweet front ends to their layout that you can customize quite a bit. So while I see your point, I think that you are a little off to say that smugmug is hands down the most customizable.
Like I said, I'll take that blind taste test any day of the week. If you know of a service that offers a better customization scheme, I'd be more than happy to give it a go.

[Andy]

. There are other services out there that I looked at that compete with smugmug. While I didn't choose them for various reasons, there are some that have very sweet front ends to their layout that you can customize quite a bit.


Hello again, Glenn,

I'm very interested to know the sites/services you are speaking of here. This is a fascinating conversation, and your input is valuable - would you care to share? :ear

Thanks again,

[cybercrypt13]

Hello again, Glenn,

I'm very interested to know the sites/services you are speaking of here. This is a fascinating conversation, and your input is valuable - would you care to share? :ear

Thanks again,
Absolutely. I have a terrible memory though and was signing up for everything. There were a couple that I found interesting but only one that I can remember the site address. They had a downloadable module that actually did all the front end and upload tasks allowing me to not even have to open a browser which was pretty nice. However, I did not choose them because their image quality that they display was terrible.

And please don't take any of this thread the wrong way. I am very happy with my site and the service at smugmug. I am just new and trying to get a foot on what is and is not available. I am not putting down what is offered and do see most of your points.

I get the feeling from some of the responses that my comments are being taken personally and I don't want that to be the case. Of course, perhaps I'm reading the wrong thing into the comments... :-)

here is the one I can remember and I'll pass on others if I can find them...
http://www.exposuremanager.com


found an email from them. here is another..
http://www.i-magination.com is a flash based solution but they don't offer a shopping cart plug in so they weren't close.

(http://www.lightexposures.com/)

[Andy]

And please don't take any of this thread the wrong way.

Hi Glenn, of course I'm not - we value the input! We've had several discussions here on dgrin re: exposure manager, but nobody was able to actually show customization greater than what smugmug allows - that's why I'm all :ear about seeing actual sites if possible - so thanks - in advance - if you can actually show a site that has more customization than the dozen or so examples that I've given to you in this or the other thread.

Thanks again,

[cybercrypt13]

Hi Glenn, of course I'm not - we value the input! We've had several discussions here on dgrin re: exposure manager, but nobody was able to actually show customization greater than what smugmug allows - that's why I'm all :ear about seeing actual sites if possible - so thanks - in advance - if you can actually show a site that has more customization than the dozen or so examples that I've given to you in this or the other thread.

Thanks again,
Oh sorry, I didn't understand what you wanted. I only have a few examples..

http://gallery.tourphotographer.com

http://eliteimages.exposuremanager.com

http://theallseeinglens.exposuremanager.com

http://www.lightexposures.com

Don't get me wrong, these are not drop dead sites. They just happen to be the only examples I have handy. Also, its not all about whether you can or can not do something but how you go about doing it.

I can understand the perspective of wanting to keep things simple and I can respect that. Perhaps what you guys are doing is the best way and we just need to get more templates to choose from.

One suggestion you might think about is the ability for us to click a button and see what is currently being used to build our page. For example, when I go to the custom page if I could see what is currently being used by default for whatever template is being selected then perhaps it would allow me to do fine tweaks using what I see instead of having to start from scratch and figure out what is what.

Just a thought...

[Andy]

One suggestion you might think about is the ability for us to click a button and see what is currently being used to build our page. For example, when I go to the custom page if I could see what is currently being used by default for whatever template is being selected then perhaps it would allow me to do fine tweaks using what I see instead of having to start from scratch and figure out what is what.

Just a thought...

Hello again Glenn,

Thanks for the links.

Probably a dozen times in the first few pages of the customization forum here (http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=31) you'll see references to firefox, and the firefox web developer tool (both free from www.mozilla.org), which allow you to do exactly what you're asking for. no reason to build a tool that already exists, eh :wink I'm not a programmer, I've picked up some html and css just by osmosis here in this forum - but I will tell you that even I can handle the firefox web developer tool, to see/learn/crib from lots of websites :deal

Hope this helps,

[cybercrypt13]

Andy,

Again, thanks for all the help... I'll start messing with it over the weekend. I was planning a hike this weekend to taken some leave shots but doesn't look like the color is changing yet so putting off another few weeks..

thanks again,