Question about Flash, PWs via PM

[pathfinder]

I received this PM today from Chris. I am taking the liberty of posting it here, so that all our readers can participate by answering or learning from this post

************************************************** **************************

Hi Pathfinder

I hope you don't mind me asking you via PM.

I read recently somewhere on dgrin a post by you regarding a the use of a Sekonic 358 and PW for flash photography.

Well, I am in a quandary and am looking for some legitimate, experienced advise. Here's my situation.

I am looking to expand into 'off camera' flash photography and will in the initial stages be buying into the following gear to use with my Canon5DMkII, 400D and my one and only flash, the 580EXII. My plans are more for location/outdoor shooting rather than studio work. Additional lighting is also on the horizon.

1x Sekonic L-358 Flash Master Light Meter L358

1x Manfrotto 001B 6-Feet Nano Stand with Retractable Legs 5/8-Inch Stud and 015 Top

2x Manfrotto 035RL Super Clamps with 2908 Standard Stud

1x Manfrotto 026 Swivel Lite-Tite Umbrella Adapter

1x Westcott 2011 43in. Optical White Satin Collapsible with Removable Black Cover

Now the tricky part that I am completely confused by - what PW do I invest into.

I have read numerous accounts where the TT1/TT5 system has a high failure rate given the gear I currently use, yet people suggest I buy into it mainly because of the ETTL/Hypersync features.

So that brings into question whether to go for one of the following
TT1/TT5 system
PlusII's
1 Multi-Max with 2 PlusII's
or a combination of the above

I'm liking some of the time control features of the Multi-Max which is steering me towards at least one of these.

Any help or guidance you can provide would be really appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Chris
__________________
Canon 5D MkII - BG-E6 - Canon 400D - BG-E3 - Speedlite 580EX II - EF 16-35mm f/2.8LII USM - EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM - EF 50mm f/1.2L USM - EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM - EF 300mm f/4L IS USM - Tamron AF 1.4X Teleconverter - Manfrotto 055XPROB Tripod- Manfrotto 410 Junior Geared Head - Tamrac Expedition 8x Gear Bag

On Smugmug

************************************************** ***********************************

I will start my answer by stating that as a professional shooter, I would suggest using Manual flash for most situations. If you can tell the subject to sit or stand in a specific spot, and can control your flash to subject distance, ( unlike with some children or candid shooting ) then set up your lights, determine your exposure, set your aperture, ISO and shutter speed for that exposure and go to work concentrating on shooting, not exposure. That is one reason I do like the Sekonic L358 or any other good incident flash meter. One pop, and you know your exposure. Put it into your camera and go to work. Or you could shoot a couple trial frames to get your exposure from your histogram and a nice grey WHiBal target. Both techniques work fine.

I do own the TTL PWs, but find I rarely use them. I also own Canon's IR controller ( and a 7D with its built in one ) and find them ok indoors, but not so hot out of doors. ( I do like the ST-E2 + ETTL for indoor family candids as I have written about before (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=49999) )

Out of doors in sunlight, shade, long distances, standard PWs rock, whether the separate transmitter and receiver, or the combined transmitter/receiver versions. Both version of stadard PWs just seem to be bullet proof to me. I have tried to use the eBay versions ( Cactus V4) and they work sometimes, but then again, not so hot. While with PWs they never fail, unless I have forgotten to keep the batteries up to date, and AA batteries last a very long time in PWs. The PW Plus II Transceivers are what I favor.

My answer here is not The Right Answer, it is what works for me. I do not want to have to fiddle with gear to nudge it into cooperation. I just want stuff that works without fail, the first tiime. Even if your flash is around the corner inside a black softbox. I do not want to deal with line of sight IR trigger issues, or antenna issues, or strange little battery issues. I got work to do, and I just want the light to turn on when I press the shutter.

I like the simplicity of only needing to worry about having AA batteries, for everything. I wish my camera would run on them sometimes. Just kidding, kind of.......

Good PWs are more expensive, but the peace of mind is worth it to me.

We'll see what other folks have to say about these issues.

[Dan7312]

Let me preface by saying I'm an amateur so I don't give the PW mini/flex's the workout a Pro would.

I have the mini and some flex's and the work well for me with my Speedlites. I've been happy with them now that I feel I understand how to set them up an use them. At first I had problems getting thing to work but I was trying different configurations of the flex an mini and found, in all the cases I dug into, that I had something configured wrong or otherwise setup incorrectly.

The are two reliability issues I've run into with mini+flex. If you are using 580EX/EX II electronic noise from the flash is an issue, but only if the flex's are more than 20-30ft from the mini. Beyond that you need to use the covers and special base that are included with the flex's. The cover's and base work but are tedious to setup and use.

The second is complexity. You have to turn on the mini and flex's before you turn on the camera and flashes and then do a throw away shot to sync things up. If you are going to use mirror lockup you have to do the throw away shot without mirror lockup, then switch to mirror lockup.

If you are going to use the Sekonic for fire the flash's to take a reading (instead of taking a reading based on the Sekonic seeing the flash, which doesn't work well if you are outside in the sun) then you will have to reconfigure the Flex's. By default Flex's are configured to receive on the ControlTL channel (which has all the eTTL, hs and second curtain sync stuff in it) which the Sekonic cannot transmit on. You have to configure the Flex to receive on Standard channel.

I set the Flex configuration C2 to receive on the standard channel and setup the Sekonic to transmit on channel 2. The problem here is that you are going to need to use the ControlTL channel to fire the flashes if you want to use high speed sync or second curtain sync (or ETTL for that matter). This means you will end up having to switch between configuration C2 to do the flash reading and then to configuration C1 to take the picture. It's easy to get these out of sync:D.

I've also found that in manual mode hss doesn't work for the Speedlite 550EX in manual mode.

I've experimented with other configurations, there are many settings. Because you can't see the configuration of the mini or flex without plugging them into a computer it's easy to end up with things not setup the way you think they are.

[pathfinder]

Dan, all the complexity you describe, is precisely why I do not use the mini, flex PWs in ETTL. The Mini will trigger standard PW IIs reliably.

I do admire your tenacity.

After the third software updates, I just threw in the towel with them.:dunno

[Dan7312]

It is getting easier, but I have to tell you a month ago I knew I had something configured wrong when the flashes wouldn't fire... I was so focused on the PW config that it took me 15 minutes to realize I hadn't turned on the flashes.:scratch

It's still easier than getting a printer on a wireless network to print though.:barb

[cjmchch]

Thanks for the comments so far guys, appreciated.

If you use a mini as your master and have the PW Plus II's connected as the slaves with 580EXII's attached, is ETTL available or is ETTL reliant on having the Flex as the slaves?

[pathfinder]

The PW IIs do not do ETTL, you need a mini and a flex for that. The mini will trigger the PW IIs, but only in manual mode.

Printers on wireless networks, were just duck soup for me. We use an HP 2600n attached via my router, and all of my laptops ( MBPs ) found it and will print, wirelessly, with it, without complaint.

[Dan7312]

You need flex's on the slaves and they have to be configured to receive the ControlTL signal, not the standand one, for eTTL to work.

ControlTL is a Pockwizard term for the signal that contains all the eTTL, hs, and second curtain sync info. The standard signal just triggers the flash like a simple Cactus trigger would. The mini generates both signals.

By default, out of the box, flex's are set to receive on the ControlTL signal, so when you first get them if you just want to try out the eTTL you will be good to go, just set the mini/flex's to the same config....

Except you might have to download and install the latest firmware and reset the mini/flex's to default config.

If you want to do group balancing of lights when using eTTL you will need a CE-ST1 or the PocketWizard AC3 zone controller. On later Canon cameras with the 580EXII you can control the zones from display on the back of the camera so you don't need st1 or ac3.

BTW check to see if PocketWizard still has it's 30 day return if you don't like them promotion on, if you are not sure you want to go this route.







Thanks for the comments so far guys, appreciated.

If you use a mini as your master and have the PW Plus II's connected as the slaves with 580EXII's attached, is ETTL available or is ETTL reliant on having the Flex as the slaves?

[cjmchch]

Thanks to both of you for your information.

Having taken into consideration all of the information you two have provided and also what my plans are with regard to the use of flash I have decided to take the plunge and move towards the TT1/Flex5 option.

The initial investment will provide me with the opportunity to use HSS and 2nd Curtain for sports/motion, ETTL when needed and will facilitate my needs for now. Fortunately for me the NZ version(CE) has less issue with RF noise than the US version.

The price I can get them for means I can buy, try and if not liked, sell at a small profit or at least for even monies. Once again, thanks for your help.

[adbsgicom]

FWIW, I generally wish I hadn't got the TT1, and just had TT5s. The small form factor isn't really all that valuable, and having the receive/xmit the camera is helpful if you end up mixing in studio strobes (non-PW triggered). You can put the non-PW trigger on top of the TT5 and when the Sekonic triggers the TT5, it also triggers the non-PW strobes. However, if you have a TT1, because the TT1 isn't receiving, the non-PW won't fire. I only use the TT1 rarely (mostly out of feeling sorry for it...)