quick poll re: challenge format

[Andy]

please take part - i would like your feedback.

[cmr164]

please take part - i would like your feedback.
I think yes is going to be a big majority. I would like to see it go even farther with maybe a limit of one post to the non-comment thread thus keeping the sound noise ratio there more clean. If the only thing in the one thread was the actual submissions, no comments and only images that fit the rules...

Course that is some sort of utopian dream http://www.dgrin.com/images/icons/sad.gif

[DavidTO]

please take part - i would like your feedback.


I just wish you had provided a "Hell, yes" option

[ginger_55]

I just wish you had provided a "Hell, yes" option
I like the critiques, I do not like only the one entry. I have said that all along, and I don't care if I am the only one to say it. That is how I feel. I liked 3 entries. If I had to give a reason I would, but it is nothing really but a preference.

ginger

[DavidTO]

I think that the submissions thread should be one entry, no comments. The critiques shouls be one entry, and if you want advice on another, remove it. It's way too cluttered.

Interesting. I like how cluttered the critique/comments thread is. Everyone throwing out ideas and solutions.

I do agree that the submissions thread should be commentless, though.

[damonff]

True David. I think you're right. The critique thread should by its nature be cluttered, filled with ideas and suggestions. I think that the other one, however, should be only submissions.

Interesting. I like how cluttered the critique/comments thread is. Everyone throwing out ideas and solutions.

I do agree that the submissions thread should be commentless, though.

[wxwax]

Yes, cluttered critique. If we limit that, then each week someone will start their own new thread, and we'll be back in the same place. Let's face it, we like to show our photos and get feedback on them.

[ginger_55]

Yes, cluttered critique. If we limit that, then each week someone will start their own new thread, and we'll be back in the same place. Let's face it, we like to show our photos and get feedback on them.
No matter how many entries for the main event, the Challenge itself, and it looks like it will stay at one. It is very disconcerting not to be able to go from one picture to another, I think. All those comments and critiques and whatever, compliments and stuff, they can go stay over at the preliminary event, where it even says feedback, etc, that is my opinion. I would like to just go from one picture to another in The Challenge, like an art gallery.

ginger

[Wolf]

I feel the critiques and comments thread shouldn't be limited to one post. If we want feedback on our submissions how are we supposed to get it if we start limiting the possibilities of learning. If members are discouraged from engaging conversations, where we will be? Certainly some of us only "want" to hear from specific others, but I for one like to hear what everyone has to say. I say clutter up the threads, except for the Challenge thread.

[Andy]

I like the critiques, I do not like only the one entry. I have said that all along, and I don't care if I am the only one to say it. That is how I feel. I liked 3 entries. If I had to give a reason I would, but it is nothing really but a preference.

ginger

thanks ginger - i like how you stick to your guns.

[Andy]

I feel the critiques and comments thread shouldn't be limited to one post. If we want feedback on our submissions how are we supposed to get it if we start limiting the possibilities of learning. If members are discouraged from engaging conversations, where we will be? Certainly some of us only "want" to hear from specific others, but I for one like to hear what everyone has to say. I say clutter up the threads, except for the Challenge thread.

the critiques thread should get very very busy. i really enjoy reading everyone's comments. yeah, it's long and noisy but so what? that's the point... imo it's much better to have everything in one place rather than having 20 separate threads to check, eh?

[Andy]

a few of you said exactly what i was thinking when i changed things this way: the challenge thread is *only* for the challenge entries. let's keep the comments and the attaboys/girls out of the main challenge thread.

this does two things

1) it makes my job easier :wink

2) it makes for unbiased voting -- let's the viewers form their own opinions

keep in mind, you may put an entry in the main challenge thread on day one and change it on day 10 - no penalties and no worries about your benevolent host being prejudiced by early or late entries or changes. promise. :deal

[wxwax]

the critiques thread should get very very busy. i really enjoy reading everyone's comments. yeah, it's long and noisy but so what? that's the point... imo it's much better to have everything in one place rather than having 20 separate threads to check, eh?


:nod :thumb You got the right one, baby.

[wxwax]

a few of you said exactly what i was thinking when i changed things this way: the challenge thread is *only* for the challenge entries. let's keep the comments and the attaboys/girls out of the main challenge thread.


:thumb

[Seamaiden]

a few of you said exactly what i was thinking when i changed things this way: the challenge thread is *only* for the challenge entries. let's keep the comments and the attaboys/girls out of the main challenge thread.

this does two things

1) it makes my job easier :wink

2) it makes for unbiased voting -- let's the viewers form their own opinions

keep in mind, you may put an entry in the main challenge thread on day one and change it on day 10 - no penalties and no worries about your benevolent host being prejudiced by early or late entries or changes. promise. :deal
This is exactly how reefs.org handles their monthly photo contests. You're more than welcome to post a shot and ask for comments in your own thread (they don't have a protocol quite so worked out as you do here), but the contest thread is for photo entries ONLY. I can't remember how many entries each person can make, though, I actually think it's three.

[snapapple]

a few of you said exactly what i was thinking when i changed things this way: the challenge thread is *only* for the challenge entries. let's keep the comments and the attaboys/girls out of the main challenge thread.

this does two things

1) it makes my job easier :wink

2) it makes for unbiased voting -- let's the viewers form their own opinions

keep in mind, you may put an entry in the main challenge thread on day one and change it on day 10 - no penalties and no worries about your benevolent host being prejudiced by early or late entries or changes. promise. :deal

Yep! - Leave the critiques thread like it is. Encourage lots of comments and lots of pics for comparisons.
Yep! - Clean up the submissions thread. Make it nice for the judges.

No! - Don't like the "Only One" rule. For now, as long as we don't have way too many members, maybe two would be good. (As a compromise?) If the number of entries gets too large, we could cut back later. :whip

[Bryan]

I like the single entry idea, but why do we wait till Thursday for the next topic.

Why not open up the new topic when the current one ends?

I have found myself out of town the couple days in between topics, wishing for something specific to look for.

Just a thought.

[Andy]

I like the single entry idea, but why do we wait till Thursday for the next topic.

Why not open up the new topic when the current one ends?

I have found myself out of town the couple days in between topics, wishing for something specific to look for.

Just a thought.

time to vote. time to reflect.

[rutt]

... is to make the process of selecting finalists less tied to one person's taste (however benevolent). Andy, you have a great eye, and are very benevolent, but the way things are people are going to learn your taste and play to it. Sometimes there will be a great shot that you just won't see, or just won't value enough, or that will rub you the wrong way for some reason.

How about following the recent change on Fred Miranda and including the previous week's winner as a judge for the current week (disqualified from the current week, of course.)

[Andy]

... is to make the process of selecting finalists less tied to one person's taste (however benevolent). Andy, you have a great eye, and are very benevolent, but the way things are people are going to learn your taste and play to it. Sometimes there will be a great shot that you just won't see, or just won't value enough, or that will rub you the wrong way for some reason.

How about following the recent change on Fred Miranda and including the previous week's winner as a judge for the current week (disqualified from the current week, of course.)

i'm working on just such a change.

hang in there :wink

[Wolf]

I'm thinking that might have been what Humongous was trying to communicate in an earlier thread. The only one judge thing. Just a thought...

[Andy]

I'm thinking that might have been what Humongous was trying to communicate in an earlier thread. The only one judge thing. Just a thought...

that's what my momma told me, she did :rofl

[cmr164]

that's what my momma told me, she did :rofl
"My Momma done tol' me. When I was in kneepants.
My Momma done tol' me. Son, A womans a two face
A worrisome thing who'll lead you to sing the blues in the night."

Now the tune is stuck...

[wxwax]

How about following the recent change on Fred Miranda and including the previous week's winner as a judge for the current week (disqualified from the current week, of course.)

's good idea, rutt. Glad to hear you're thinking about making a change there, Andy... I find myself falling into the trap that rutt describes.

[AltPro]

Interesting. I like how cluttered the critique/comments thread is. Everyone throwing out ideas and solutions.

I do agree that the submissions thread should be commentless, though.
DiTTo, David!
ginette

[AltPro]

I like the single entry idea, but why do we wait till Thursday for the next topic.

Why not open up the new topic when the current one ends?

I have found myself out of town the couple days in between topics, wishing for something specific to look for.

Just a thought.
Andy, All...
One Entry...NO comments in the Final.
Many entries and beaucoups comments in the prelim thread.

I am with Bryan on this one... Once the voting is over, it would be nice to be able to go on to the next assignment. Time to pause and reflect can be done at anytime throughout the assignment period. I myself don't get far from the farm except about once every 10 days, when I then have time to be out, and not have other responsibilities, for now it is a part of the life that we have chosen and not about to change until September, October... When I am out, I love to photograph... Sometimes what I shoot then is really what I would like to submit, but I have really been staying close to the rules, and not submittting those shots... I am headed out today... Again, my free day... I would love it were we able to shot from the deadline, but perhaps not post until Thursday? But, I also recognize that the rules do not change for one or two, and I am not expecting that. Just putting it out there, for discussion and consideration, NOT to muddy the waters, and stir up discontent among the ranks.
I remain,
humbly,
ginette

[Andy]

since i have the voting for the next challenge them already ended, there's no reason why you couldn't shoot for the next challenge now.

the theme is "quality of light"

the challenge threads won't be up until thursday but feel free to shoot for it now.

the main purpose of a start time is so the people go out and get fresh, new shots.. i'm not gonna fuss over a day or two in advance of when i originally had it planned for.


so, in summary, consider the legal shooting time for the subsequent challenge to be anytime *after* the prior challenge has closed.

fair 'nuff?



Andy, All...
One Entry...NO comments in the Final.
Many entries and beaucoups comments in the prelim thread.

I am with Bryan on this one... Once the voting is over, it would be nice to be able to go on to the next assignment. Time to pause and reflect can be done at anytime throughout the assignment period. I myself don't get far from the farm except about once every 10 days, when I then have time to be out, and not have other responsibilities, for now it is a part of the life that we have chosen and not about to change until September, October... When I am out, I love to photograph... Sometimes what I shoot then is really what I would like to submit, but I have really been staying close to the rules, and not submittting those shots... I am headed out today... Again, my free day... I would love it were we able to shot from the deadline, but perhaps not post until Thursday? But, I also recognize that the rules do not change for one or two, and I am not expecting that. Just putting it out there, for discussion and consideration, NOT to muddy the waters, and stir up discontent among the ranks.
I remain,
humbly,
ginette

[wxwax]

In the spirit of offering precise feedback, Andy.... :D

I kinda do see the point of folks with non-traditional schedules wanting to get an earlier jump on the assignments. Someone who's off on Mon/Tues/Weds only gets one "weekend" to work on the assignment.

The other thing that I wonder about a bit, is the limited amount of time for voting: I wonder if some folks miss voting because there's a tight-ish two day window?

Keep up the great work, Andy, this is great stuff. Thanks for inviting the feedback and listening to it.

[wxwax]

so, in summary, consider the legal shooting time for the subsequent challenge to be anytime *after* the prior challenge has closed.

fair 'nuff?

:clap Well, that was fast! Excellent! Thanks, Andy. Great to see you be so...so... benevolent!

[Bryan]

so, in summary, consider the legal shooting time for the subsequent challenge to be anytime *after* the prior challenge has closed.

fair 'nuff?
Cool... I am on the road, again, have all evning tonight to shoot... But I left the camera at home... DOH! Guess I will just read instead :-)

[Andy]

In the spirit of offering precise feedback, Andy.... :D

I kinda do see the point of folks with non-traditional schedules wanting to get an earlier jump on the assignments. Someone who's off on Mon/Tues/Weds only gets one "weekend" to work on the assignment.

The other thing that I wonder about a bit, is the limited amount of time for voting: I wonder if some folks miss voting because there's a tight-ish two day window?

Keep up the great work, Andy, this is great stuff. Thanks for inviting the feedback and listening to it.

i think 48 hours is enough. people will begin to get it in their system that voting is always on a monday and always ends on a wednesday. that's a long time i think.

i need to keep it short, due to my limited attention span and few remaining brain cells..... i want to be off of the prior challenge on onto the next by thursday.

i'm just one guy right? :bash

[wxwax]

Cool. :nod

[DavidTO]

Wondering:

If we're going to have guest judges, does that mean we'll get feedback from both judges on all the entries?

[Andy]

Wondering:

If we're going to have guest judges, does that mean we'll get feedback from both judges on all the entries?

it's possible but i'm not guaranteeing this....

[gubbs]

I've enjoyed all the challenges, particularly this one! The single entry makes you focus on your own pictures much more intensely. Previously we were (well, I was) deferring the critical process to andy. :thumb

The critique thread is an excellent idea, although, I think I could have used it more wisely. I particularly liked the way that David's "happy feet" developed through the thread. :thumb

Guest judges :thumb

Thanks

[DavidTO]

The critique thread is an excellent idea, although, I think I could have used it more wisely. I particularly liked the way that David's "happy feet" developed through the thread. :thumb


Me, too!!

c'mon Happy Feet!

[ginger_55]

Cool... I am on the road, again, have all evning tonight to shoot... But I left the camera at home... DOH! Guess I will just read instead :-)
Maybe everbody could tell me what they think is meant by quality of light.

ginger ?????? I might read until Thursday. Am exhausted from a very spirited tennis thing this morning. Plus the stress over my favorite picture I have ever done, not depicting a loved one, of course. Now I find that my daughter doesn't like it. Glad I never asked her for advice, smile. I wonder what she would think of "quality of light".

Actually, we had the clearest day on Sunday. It is often hazy here in the summer, but coming back from church, about 1:00 PM, I mentioned to Bill that I had never seen the sky a clearer blue, nor the water a brighter blue. No haze, no pollution.

Somehow I don't think that is what is meant by this Challenge.

[Bryan]

Maybe everbody could tell me what they think is meant by quality of light.
I just don't know. I am going to try to capture light enhancing the precieved quality of an object. Seeing I am a total amature and have no access to quality photo lighting tools, I will try and wing it. This should be an interesting experiment. I will most likely shoot a series of shots to show how I attempted to create my "quality" shot.

[wxwax]

I just don't know. I am going to try to capture light enhancing the precieved quality of an object. Seeing I am a total amature and have no access to quality photo lighting tools, I will try and wing it.

:thumb Natural light for me too. One thing I've noticed in the photo comps at other sites is how many people use a light kit of some kind, and try studio-type lighting. Sometimes it's awfully good, too.

But that's way beyond my ken, so I'll settle for whatever nature offers... and maybe a normal lightbulb too. :evil

[dkapp]

:thumb Natural light for me too. One thing I've noticed in the photo comps at other sites is how many people use a light kit of some kind, and try studio-type lighting. Sometimes it's awfully good, too.

But that's way beyond my ken, so I'll settle for whatever nature offers... and maybe a normal lightbulb too. :evil

I'm approaching this the same way. I don't have any experience with lighting, or off camera flash for that matter. I'm trying to come up with some ideas now, and hopefully can have some shots for review by the end of the week. I think this is going to be an interesting competition.

Dave

[Bryan]

I'm approaching this the same way. I don't have any experience with lighting, or off camera flash for that matter. I'm trying to come up with some ideas now, and hopefully can have some shots for review by the end of the week. I think this is going to be an interesting competition.

Dave
I think we are going to need a subthread... Pictures of how I got my light picture... It will be interesting to see how this group will go about solving the light problem... Elabroate lighting setups with slaves and strobes tripods and filters. Or the Black bedsheet, a setting sun, an open window ans a couple mirrors.

[AltPro]

since i have the voting for the next challenge them already ended, there's no reason why you couldn't shoot for the next challenge now.

the theme is "quality of light"

the challenge threads won't be up until thursday but feel free to shoot for it now.
the main purpose of a start time is so the people go out and get fresh, new shots.. i'm not gonna fuss over a day or two in advance of when i originally had it planned for.
so, in summary, consider the legal shooting time for the subsequent challenge to be anytime *after* the prior challenge has closed.
fair 'nuff?
Andy:

Quite Fair... Thank-you for the Flex in the "shoot time." 'Course as luck would have it today... I ran out after zipping out the comment... But it still will be very nice having the couple of extra days to begin working.

Again, :bowThank-you!!!
Hey... How's Lynn doin'?
ginette

[AltPro]

:thumb Natural light for me too. One thing I've noticed in the photo comps at other sites is how many people use a light kit of some kind, and try studio-type lighting. Sometimes it's awfully good, too.

But that's way beyond my ken, so I'll settle for whatever nature offers... and maybe a normal lightbulb too. :evil
Regarding the "Quality of Light," maybe this will help?

Light - we can't make much of a photograph without it. The ability to see subtle changes in the light on a subject is a key to professional quality work and is part of what makes a photograph not a snap shot. Film must get the correct amount of light for it to record an image. Too little light and the image is weak and lacks contrast while too much light will make the image dark and contrasty. The challenge is tocontrol the light.

The magic of photography lies in the light. Light can do more than make an image on film; it can emphasize, subdue or alter moods. It can help you say many things about your subject. The first property of light to deal with is intensity or brightness. The light meter measures this and converts it into f-stops and shutter speeds. The only key to intensity is making sure that there is enough to make an image on the film. The light that enters our camera lens is either direct light from a light source such as the sun or light bulb OR it is reflected light that has come from light that has bounced off of people or things.

The light meter measures the light that it sees and must convert it into a proper exposure. Most cameras use an averge of all of the light that falls on the frame of the camera. This quantity of light is converted into aperture and shutter speeds based on the ASA of the film and the amount of light needed to convert that light into a neutral gray on the film. Neutral gray represents a shade of gray that is half way between white and black. It is a shade of gray that is the same on a negative as it is in real life and is sometimes referred to as 18% grey since it reflects back 18% of the light that hits it.

Sometimes the average type light meter makes a mistake if it is aimed at a scene that has a bright spot in the frame that throws the average higher or a dark spot that throws the average lower. A snow scene or a night shot or concert shot will fool a light meter. To cure this some photographers use a spot meter which mesures only a small portion of a scene or frame.

Light Quality - Direction - Contrast

Light Quality is the most important characteristic of light for the photographer for it sets the mood of a shot. Quality of light breaks down into two types -- hard or soft light. Hard light throws distinct shadows. It comes from a point light source such as the sun or an electronic flash. It is a harsh light and often can cause the subject if it is a person to squint or need to put on sun glasses. Soft light is the opposite and comes from a reflected source or a broad source. It is often indirect light and is frequently found in the shade as light that reflects into the shade from the surroundings. Light quality is effected mostly by change in subject or camera position or the use of reflectors or fill flash.

Hard light can give a dramatic effect -- strong, bold or angry. A soft light is used for more subtle effects . Hard light can further be broken down according to its direction where it might come from the front, side, back or top of the subject. The direction of light will determine where shadows will be. By looking at the shadows in a picture, you can determine where the light comes from. This direction, more than any other light feature will affect the LOOK of a picture. Directions of light are given from the subjects point of view, thus back light points into the camera lens. There are no rules about which direction to use, the main reason for study of them is to control their effect on our subject.

Front light is used to show detail. Few good outdoor shots use this type of light because it eliminates texture. This type of light is what comes out of a flash attachment and evenly lights our subject. It is the worst of the hard light types and would be better as soft light if a choice is possible. Side light emphasizes texture and shape. A strong side light from a window or a sunset causes long shadows and a dark side and light side relationship on a subject. To meter such a light the photographer may want to average a close up meter reading of both the bright side and the dark side. Backlight softens the quality of the light as the subject gets mostly reflected light on its surface. If the light is placed directly behind the subject a rim light can be the result. This is the most dramatic type of light. This type of light does a good job of separating the subject from the background but requires careful metering. IF the meter sees mostly the bright light in the background the exposure will be adjusted lower to compensate which will result in an underexposed subject which has less light falling on it from the reflected light reaching it from the front.

The last chracteristic of light which is of a concern to the technology conscious photographer is the brightness range or contrast. This is how much difference there is between the brightest part of a scene and the darkest part. On most black and white and color films the brightness range that the film can record an image on is about 5 f-stops difference beween the light and dark. On a bright day it is possible for the actual brightness to be 8 or 9 stops difference. On an overcast day the contrast is lowered to perhaps only one f-stop difference between the bright and dark part of a scene. This results in prints that are low in contrast. In the video and film industry additional lights are brought in to increase the contrast or decrease the contrast so that it matches the contrast of the film.
Here is a Kodak link that might help a bit, too... (http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-locale=en_US&pq-path=422)
I'll see if I can come up with some more help tomorrow afternoon... IF anyone is interested...

ginette

[Bryan]

Regarding the "Quality of Light," maybe this will help?

Don't take this wrong... but Hard, or Soft, any light has quality, as long as exposed properly. The trick is exposing your subject with the proper light to convey the message you like. (Of course that is the whole trick with Photography)

So for this assignment, we need to capture light in a way that it emphasises the scene we are trying to caputre. Wow, sure is a lot easier to say than do.

Good topic, this will be a tough one, but I BET the results will be spectacular.

[wxwax]

All good stuff, guys. Gave me some ideas, Ginette. I think I'm going to make me a prison mug shot: now there's an unmistakable quality of light. :evil

[ginger_55]

I have a book that talks about light, but it is too long to quote, though it is very informative. I still can't get away from the the thought that all light has a quality. So maybe we rephrase it so that I can't send you a black picture, and say "good quality of light". Would that not just be a good photograph, as far as the light quality is concerned? I can think of some things, etc. I tend to shoot at noon, did I already say that, but I have been taking my photos in light that is not traditionally ideal, or even good. Here is a shot of the marsh taken while my husband was driving over a bridge at 60 mph about 1 PM (noonish) on Sunday.
I am probably going to have to drag myself somewhere unusual at a time of day I would not ordinarily. I think that, then I think my tennis balls, well I have some where the lighting is exquisite, but I just don't think I can keep going back to that porch with a can of tennis balls. Much as I really do love the place.
Andy, I hope you are still going to introduce the topic a bit on Thursday, or sometime. I think of something like this as a comparison, a chapter in a book, or perhaps a whole book, pictures included.

http://gingerSnap.smugmug.com/photos/5609319-M.jpg


ginger

[Andy]

Andy, I hope you are still going to introduce the topic a bit on Thursday, or sometime. I think of something like this as a comparison, a chapter in a book, or perhaps a whole book, pictures included.

ginger

this is another reason i need a break between challenges. of course, ginger, i'll introduce ;-)

[ginger_55]

this is another reason i need a break between challenges. of course, ginger, i'll introduce ;-)
Thanks, Andy. That makes me feel a bit relieved. I am not really sure what anyone could say. But your slant on the words "quality of light" as they are transfered to a photographic image, well, it can only help.

And we have a very grey "blown" sky right now. The quality of light is probably fine as the sun sent it out, but there are grey things blocking the total impact of the light from reaching us.

Actually, I get so wound up over the assignments that I need a rest right now, while you write re the assignment. I need to read a good book. So I sat down with three books, way after midnight last night, what did I pick up, another photography book. I am going to go into "old lady" burnout.

(And I finally got to e-mail all the lists and people I have been totally ignoring. I have invited some of them to look at the pictures. I swear, if there are ten people, each of the ten likes a different picture, that is how subjective this thing can be. And one of the people was a professional photographer some of her life, more knowledgeable than I am, as much as you are, but with film cameras................. she liked my picture. My daughter said, "you have done better".)

I need to leave this planet, but just for a day or two.

Thanks for the assurance, Andy.

ginger