Our Disgrace........ [Sitemap] - Digital Grin Photography Forum

Harryb

Sep-02-2005, 08:23 AM

The remark below SADLY is 100% correct.

"I am absolutely disgusted. After the tsunami our people, even the ones who lost everything, wanted to help the others who were suffering," said Sajeewa Chinthaka, 36, as he watched a cricket match in Colombo, Sri Lanka.

"Not a single tourist caught in the tsunami was mugged. Now with all this happening in the U.S. we can easily see where the civilized part of the world's population is."

And Jesse Jackson is making speeches defending the looters and shooters. He needs to get dropped off down there and left to fend for himself. Just another step to wards socialism.

It would seem to me that with everything that has happened the looters are a very small part of the problem. My years in Vietnam taught me that if you put people in uncivilized surroundings they will act in an uncivilized way.

For years Republicans and Democrats turned a blind eye to all the warnings about what would happen to New Orleans if a category 3 or 4 hurricane hit. We were pre-warned of Katrina's arrival for days before it hit. We knew what would happen if the levees broke and when they did we had no ready response for the situation.

Thousands of people now have to live w/o food, water, power, medical care, or leadership from the local, state and federal governments. They have been effectively abandoned to their faith. If I was in New Orleans w/o food or water I would break in a store window to find those supplies.

The real disgrace is not that a few criminals act like criminals when chaos reigns. The disgrace is that our "leaders" did not lead when leadership was desperately needed.

dragon300zx

Sep-02-2005, 08:36 AM

We were pre-warned of Katrina's arrival for days before it hit. We knew what would happen if the levees broke and when they did we had no ready response for the situation.

If I was in New Orleans w/o food or water I would break in a store window to find those supplies.

The real disgrace is not that a few criminals act like criminals when chaos reigns. The disgrace is that our "leaders" did not lead when leadership was desperately needed. Hell I would steal food and water too. But big screen tv's, 15 pairs of shoes, guns and ammunition, shooting at evacuation helicopters....

I am no fan of our goverment and they did fall flat on their face on this one. But as you said there were days of warning about this. There was a mandatory evcauation. The eldery, the sick, the little kids. The ones who couldn't evacuate on their own, they aren't the ones shooting at blackhawks, rescue boats, and so on. The ones who could have left, could have found a way out, the young and strong who could be helping get people to safety, save lives, and keep things organized. Their the ones taking pot shots at those who are trying to help. The tourists who knew their was a hurricane coming yet still went down there for a vacation anyways (I was just reading on cnn this morning about a woman who went down their sunday knowing the hurricane was coming but "wasn't going to miss her birthday on bourbon street drinking" now complaining cause she is stranded there). These people are a drain on society every day. They are as much to blame for their situation, and whats going on as the goverment is.

I'm all for helping out and if I could get the time off work (asked but was denied) I'd be on a red cross bus on the way down there to put in two weeks helping out. We are supposed to be the most civilized and advanced country in the world. Yet we can't plan ahead to keep our own people safe, or even stay calm to try and save our own lives when we are in the middle of a crisis.

We can't expect the federal goverment to come to the rescue if the local goverment/law enforcement/people in charge, aren't even going to try and keep things organized.
Tourist Debbie Durso of Washington, Mich., said she asked a police officer for assistance and his response was, "'Go to hell _ it's every man for himself.'"

Steve Cavigliano

Sep-02-2005, 09:07 AM

For years Republicans and Democrats turned a blind eye to all the warnings about what would happen to New Orleans if a category 3 or 4 hurricane hit. We were pre-warned of Katrina's arrival for days before it hit. We knew what would happen if the levees broke and when they did we had no ready response for the situation.

Thousands of people now have to live w/o food, water, power, medical care, or leadership from the local, state and federal governments. They have been effectively abandoned to their faith. If I was in New Orleans w/o food or water I would break in a store window to find those supplies.

The real disgrace is not that a few criminals act like criminals when chaos reigns. The disgrace is that our "leaders" did not lead when leadership was desperately needed.
:agree with Harry 200%. I was in the area (Biloxi) in '69 during Hurricane Camille and remember that the Army Corp of Engineers were warning leaders at that time that New Orleans was a disaster waiting to happen because the levee system was old and inadequate. They escaped Camille without major levee breaks, it was no surprise when Katrina proved those predictions true :cry

While the storm could be classified a natural disaster, the tragedy in New Orleans was man made. Or more correctly, we allowed it to happen :uhoh

Heads, at the highest levels, should roll for this "disgrace". The relief efforts would be laughable if they weren't so pathetic :huh Although I have contributed what I could to the relief effort, I know I sure am embarassed to be an American today :rolleyes

Steve

dragon300zx

Sep-02-2005, 09:18 AM

I don't know about being embarassed to be an american so much as ashamed of the leardership we have elected though the years (after all this isn't just the current administrations failure). I remember reading one quote that "levies that protected beyond the category 3 hurricane just were not cost effective" or something along those lines. When is portecting life not cost effective? If the levies had held up it would not be this bad today.

Levies built to take whatever we can throw at them = $500,000,000.00 (or so on)

Not being cought with your pants down :buttkiss = priceless.

gsgary

Sep-02-2005, 09:21 AM

What the bloody hell is going on, in the pictures we are seeing over here all they seem to be bothered about are looters and not the people dying. In one shot on are news there are old people in wheel chairs from a home with no food or water a helicopter comes in dump water and food and all the young run off with it were is the army why arn't they distributing it because they are in Iraq, in another a women is frantic with her baby dying and just up the road about 6 policemen are surrounding a store because there is 1 looter inside. Bush promises things around the world but can do nothing on his front door step

Sorry for the rant
Gary

snookman23

Sep-02-2005, 09:49 AM

Well, since we will be spending $100 billion on an additional 10 ft on top of the New Orleans levees, maybe we should throw in $16 trillion to put the entire city of Los Angeles on a rubber pad to avoid earthquake destruction. We could also encapsulate the entire Midwest in a clear polyethylene bubble for the spring and summer months to eliminate tornado damage for a measly $148 trillion.

Im being facetious, but I have two points.
1. I know Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson (on a side note, any John Street fans out there? :wink ) won't like this, but it is all based on a cost, value analysis. I'm not supporting the Army Corps here, because they have their shortcomings, but you can't protect everything all of the time.
2. The other problem here is a false sense of security. As we saw on 9/11, we ALL take our safety and security for granted. Adding another 10ft. to the levees does not guarantee that they will not be breached by some other storm. There are so many factors that become part of a complicated flood control system like that. Its real easy after the fact to say... the pumps were not substantial enough, the levees weren't constructed correctly, etc.

My question is, the Mayor of New Orleans was complaining about GW Bush and associates not reacting quickly enough, but WHERE was the plan by the city of New Orleans to assist in evacuation of those who could not leave on their own accord?????? Shouldn't the policemen and national guardsmen etc have been evacuating the city BEFORE the hurricane, the was an evacuation order was there not?!?!?!

In closing, I DO feel very badly for the people that could not leave their homes. But what about the stupid rednecks that decided to stay because the last one didn't hit as hard as they said. Have we not learned anything. Why is everyone trying to blame someone here?!?!?!?! A freakin' category 4 hurricane hit the Gulf Coast. We've all seen the videos, thats one heck of a storm.

By the way, I am a civil engineer and a photographer. Yeah, I know they dont mix.

mercphoto

Sep-02-2005, 09:53 AM

There is blame to spread everywhere with regards to New Orleans.

1) Why did so many people ignore a MANDATORY evacuation notice?

2) Why did so many people decide to stick out a CATEGORY 5 hurricane in a city below sea level?

3) Why was the National Guard not put on immediate notice BEFORE the hurricane hit?

4) Looting for food and water is absolutely acceptable. I would do the very same thing. Looting for televisions and jewelry IS CRIMINAL. Shooting at evacuation helicopters and busses is CRIMINAL. Forcing health care providers to the upper levels of a hospital because of lawlessness and looting in the lower floors is CRIMINAL. I don't care if its a "small percent of the people" because they cause a HUGE PERCENT OF THE PROBLEM.

5) Why didn't anyone put a security force at the Super Dome so that thugs can't cause fights, violence and rapes in the first place?

6) What is taking the State and the Feds so long to bring in troops and TAKE CONTROL THROUGH FORCE and martial law?

fishlips

Sep-02-2005, 09:57 AM

My question is, the Mayor of New Orleans was complaining about GW Bush and associates not reacting quickly enough, but WHERE was the plan by the city of New Orleans to assist in evacuation of those who could not leave on their own accord?????

Iraq (a lot of them)

snookman23

Sep-02-2005, 09:59 AM

I propose a ban on ALL UNC fans... baby blue.... ickk

fishlips

Sep-02-2005, 10:00 AM

okay, that lost a lot of the impact i had intended.

Shouldn't the policemen and national guardsmen etc have been evacuating the city BEFORE the hurricane, the was an evacuation order was there not?!?!?!

they were in iraq

sorry for the goof.

mercphoto

Sep-02-2005, 10:04 AM

Iraq (a lot of them)
I'm sorry, but that is a foolish response I've heard from several people. And yes, its times like this when the liberal left really get my dander up. Not saying you are one of them, but that excuse is coming from the Left a lot.

Nothing about Iraq would have kept the City of New Orleans from developing an evacuation plan. They could have used the public city busses, school busses, the police and fire forces, private citizens as volunteers. They could have asked everyone to fill their vehicles with as many people as they could to evacuate those who could not. There are many ways this could have been done without the national guard. Imagine that, people solving their own problems without the government's help and hand-holding. Will miracles never cease.

Blaming New Orleans on the Iraq War isn't reality, its a political jab, pure and simple.

snookman23

Sep-02-2005, 10:12 AM

Total evacuation would have been utterly impossible, but was there ANY plan other than "all those with cars, drive, all those without.... ummm"

BTW, just kidding about UNC

on a side note, how about a reality show with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Don King and George W... " I positively speakify that I would utterly and postifomatically watch any real to life television show with the President of the YOU-NIIITED STAYYYTES"

dragon300zx

Sep-02-2005, 10:17 AM

Russia, Japan, Canada, France, Honduras, Germany, Venezuela, Jamaica, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, China, South Korea, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, NATO and the Organization of American States

Have all offered help. Will we be smart and take it or be smug (no relation to our parent site) and shrug it off? Right now there is a ship on the way from the dutch goverment with a diving platoon, navy vessel, and dyke inspection team (heard from several dutch friends on another forum).

We always complain about helping the rest of the world but there are alot of countries offering to step up and help us. Guess we have to wait and see if it happens, or if we even hear about it if it does.

mercphoto

Sep-02-2005, 10:18 AM

Total evacuation would have been utterly impossible, but was there ANY plan other than "all those with cars, drive, all those without.... ummm"
Total evacuation is impossible, correct. However, significantly more COULD have evacuated themself but did not. That just makes the problem worse -- the more who stay behind make the problem worse after the storm. And was there any plan? No, that IS part of the problem. Equally part of the problem is that people did not take it upon themself to help out either. I'm sure not every car or bus that left New Orleands before the storm was full of people in every available seat.

NOT EVERYTHING REQUIRES GOV'T INTERVENTION!!!! THAT IS WHAT DRIVES ME UP THE WALL ABOUT THE LEFT IN THIS NATION! The gov't didn't do this, the gov't didn't do that. Well, yes, that is correct. But gimony cripes, people were told to leave, and a very large number of people who COULD have left didn't! I'm sorry, but they share a big part of the burden of the blame of what is going on. Personal choice has consequences, it just so happens that the consequence of this particular choice was rather high. But it doesn't change the fact that a large number of people in trouble right now are in trouble as a direct result of a conscious choice they made.

Hopefully people will learn from this for the next disaster.

colourbox

Sep-02-2005, 10:22 AM

5) Why didn't anyone put a security force at the Super Dome so that thugs can't cause fights, violence and rapes in the first place?

6) What is taking the State and the Feds so long to bring in troops and TAKE CONTROL THROUGH FORCE and martial law?

5) I understand that there are several hundred security patrolling the Superdome. But a few hundred vs. tens of thousands, well, there's the math.

6) Early on, you couldn't drive in anything through the water that would carry enough troops to make a difference. But by now, the point is very well taken.

snookman23

Sep-02-2005, 10:26 AM

[QUOTE=dragon300zx] Russia, Japan, Canada, France, Honduras, Germany, Venezuela, Jamaica, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Colombia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, China, South Korea, Israel, the United Arab Emirates, NATO and the Organization of American States

Out of curiosity, where did you get that information from?

dragon300zx

Sep-02-2005, 10:33 AM

bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=a0.gjA9574Jg&refer=europe), cnn.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/02/katrina.world/) has a smaller list, Rueters (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N01481437.htm), etc.

" France Steps Up

France has 35 disaster-relief workers in the Caribbean islands of Martinique and Guadeloupe ready to leave for the U.S. the minute they are asked, Denis Simonneau, deputy spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry, said today. Another relief crew of 60 could be sent from mainland France ``very quickly,'' he said.

Simonneau said France also has 600 tents, 1,000 camp beds, 60 generators, and three portable water-treatment plants ready to be shipped from Martinique. In addition, two planes, two naval ships and a hospital ship are standing ready in the Caribbean, he said.

Nathalie Loiseau, a spokeswoman at the French embassy in Washington, said France made its offer yesterday and is awaiting a response.

``We weren't expecting a response within hours,'' Loiseau said. ``There's an inter-agency committee that meets every day, and they will examine the offers and decide which ones conform to what they need and what the U.S. have the means to accept.''"

mercphoto

Sep-02-2005, 10:34 AM

We always complain about helping the rest of the world but there are alot of countries offering to step up and help us. Guess we have to wait and see if it happens, or if we even hear about it if it does.
We'll take the help, I have no doubt about that. We took help from the Canadians after 9/11, as an example.

What irritates me is the United States was the largest provider of help after the Tsunami hit (when you factor in ALL types of assistance, such as government, private giving, the high cost of the military assistance from aircraft carriers and choppers flying in supplies, etc.), and yet that part of the world didn't thank us, and now those militants are praising Katrina. Now that is worth complaining about.

dragon300zx

Sep-02-2005, 10:37 AM

We'll take the help, I have no doubt about that. We took help from the Canadians after 9/11, as an example.

What irritates me is the United States was the largest provider of help after the Tsunami hit (when you factor in ALL types of assistance, such as government, private giving, the high cost of the military assistance from aircraft carriers and choppers flying in supplies, etc.), and yet that part of the world didn't thank us, and now those militants are praising Katrina. Now that is worth complaining about.

Several of those goverments have already made donations to katrina relief funds already.

Sri Lankan President Chandrika Kumaratunga said she and her fellow citizens felt solidarity with those affected.

"Having experienced the fury of nature ourselves during the December 26 tsunami, the people of Sri Lanka and I fully empathize with you at this hour of national grief," she said in a message to the U.S.

And while the small island nation is still recovering from the tsunami disaster, it also pledged $25,000 to the American Red Cross, the AP reported.

Harryb

Sep-02-2005, 10:44 AM

Total evacuation is impossible, correct. However, significantly more COULD have evacuated themself but did not. That just makes the problem worse -- the more who stay behind make the problem worse after the storm. And was there any plan? No, that IS part of the problem. Equally part of the problem is that people did not take it upon themself to help out either. I'm sure not every car or bus that left New Orleands before the storm was full of people in every available seat.

NOT EVERYTHING REQUIRES GOV'T INTERVENTION!!!! THAT IS WHAT DRIVES ME UP THE WALL ABOUT THE LEFT IN THIS NATION! The gov't didn't do this, the gov't didn't do that. Well, yes, that is correct. But gimony cripes, people were told to leave, and a very large number of people who COULD have left didn't! I'm sorry, but they share a big part of the burden of the blame of what is going on. Personal choice has consequences, it just so happens that the consequence of this particular choice was rather high. But it doesn't change the fact that a large number of people in trouble right now are in trouble as a direct result of a conscious choice they made.

Hopefully people will learn from this for the next disaster.
New Orleans does not have an effective system of mass transport. Many people did not have cars so they couldn't leave. There were many others who were not fit to travel. The hospitals weren't evacuated. Then you have many folks who hope it won't be as bad as predicted (sort of like our "leaders"). Its not easy to leave your home and all you own. Everytime there is a hurricane you have a sizeable number of folks who don't evacuate. That's too be expected.

A DISASTER LIKE KATRINA NEEDS A FEDERAL RESPONSE. Its beyond the scope of local governments to deal with. Thats why the Prez is enpowered to declare a national emergency. You need a unified response and not the fragmented disorganized non-response we have seen before today. I may be a big silly here but if we can send a man to the moon and if we can invade Iraq I don't see getting food, water and medical treatment to the poor folks at the NO Convention Center to be that impossible.

Of course we can say its their own fault and they deserve what they are getting. Look at them expecting a government handout!!! What nerve expecting the government to respond to what may be the largest natural disaster in our history. As punishment they should be forced to read "Atlas Shrugged".

Anson

Sep-02-2005, 10:46 AM

http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=158007&postcount=17

colourbox

Sep-02-2005, 10:46 AM

and yet that part of the world didn't thank us, and now those militants are praising Katrina. Now that is worth complaining about.

There were no thanks at all at any level? And these militants...are the majority? I find it hard to imagine that most of those men, women, elderly, and children were stubbornly ungrateful and later went to the warehouse to re-arm...

Ann McRae

Sep-02-2005, 10:50 AM

I know that Canada has offered the same emergency response troops and equipment (large, mobile water purification systems, medical troops, etc.)that we sent to the Tsunami, as well as several different search and rescue troops from across the country. We have offered medicines (and apparantly being taken up on that one). I get the sense that

1. No one with in the organizational structure of the US Administration is sure yet of how they want this implemented

and

2. No one from the same organizations on down to the average citizen really expected or was prepared to be able to deal with thousands of homeless for many, many days. Even still, measures to deal with the fall out are reactionary - I've heard reports that the Astrodome cannot continue to accept the remaining people in the Superdome - surely the math for this could have been done ahead. The bus drivers are houred out and cannot conitnue moving the refugees - that one doesn't seem logistically impossible either. Of course, as I sit here in the frozen north (taxed to death but NBL to be hit by any natural disasters) it is easy for me to observe and comment. I am not there dealing with what must be horrible pressure.

If you were told to evacuate for such a disaster, would you have taken a days supply of goods, a week, a month? Some of these folks will be homeless for many, many months. How will they deal with that? I do not know how I would have prepared myself previously, but I now expect I would be better prepared for having watched this one.

Who would ever have thought we would be talking about refugee camps on US soil? My deepest sympathies to all.

ann

mercphoto

Sep-02-2005, 10:52 AM

Of course we can say its their own fault and they deserve what they are getting. Look at them expecting a government handout!!! What nerve expecting the government to respond to what may be the largest natural disaster in our history. As punishment they should be forced to read "Atlas Shrugged".
Quite possibly, maybe everyone should read that book.

You liked to twist my words, Harry. I never said everyone could evacuate. I said those that could and chose not to are making the problem worse for those who could not. Yes, not everyone could get out of dodge, for a variety of reasons. But a large number of those who are still there had the ability and chose not to. That is causing the problem to be worse than it needed to be.

I have no problem helping those who could not get out of dodge. But those who could, and blame only the government and refuse to accept the fact that they are in a life-threatening situation out of their own voluntary choice is a recipe for making that same mistake all over again. People need to own up to when they make a poor choice, otherwise mistakes will happen again.

I am not saying "don't help these people". What I am saying is "they need to take part of the blame for the position that they are in". This problem did not need to be as bad as it has become. I'm sorry for this, I do realize it is politically incorrect for people to take responsibility for their own actions. Maybe as punishment I should be forced to read the writings of Karl Marx.

fishlips

Sep-02-2005, 11:11 AM

NOT EVERYTHING REQUIRES GOV'T INTERVENTION!!!! THAT IS WHAT DRIVES ME UP THE WALL ABOUT THE LEFT IN THIS NATION! The gov't didn't do this, the gov't didn't do that. Well, yes, that is correct. But gimony cripes, people were told to leave, and a very large number of people who COULD have left didn't! I'm sorry, but they share a big part of the burden of the blame of what is going on. Personal choice has consequences, it just so happens that the consequence of this particular choice was rather high. But it doesn't change the fact that a large number of people in trouble right now are in trouble as a direct result of a conscious choice they made.

Hopefully people will learn from this for the next disaster.

ok, i was going to let this go…but

this is what drives me crazy about the conservative right. "not saying your are one of them…"

conservatives sit in their dry houses, drinking there wine, watching all this unfold on the tv and they see it all in black and white terms, not race, just, this way or that way, no in between. conservatives think to themselves, i would have left, why the hell didn't they? they didn't do what they were asked, so f%*k 'em. most of the people left there are the poorest of the poor. most conservatives don't know too many people that poor, so they have no idea what it is like to live that way and can't begin to answer that question.

they didn't help themselves get out of harms way, why should the government help? BEACAUSE IT'S WHAT AMERICA DOES! WE HELP THOSE WHO CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES. UNLESS THEY ARE POOR AND LIVE HERE.

i'm done.

Anson

Sep-02-2005, 11:18 AM

re: your post! :jawdrop mindboggling!

-have you ever had to live pay check to pay check?
-do you have the foggiest clue as to the poverty rate in the South (New Orleans)?
-where was Gov't assistance to organize transportation for the poverty stricken elderly??
-what about the poorest of the poor who did not have a car, money for a full tank of gas, or even the cash for a simple bus ride out of town (not that there would have been enough private sector bus's to do the job!)

Bill...perhaps it is time folks like yourself, put down your camera or golf club and do some reading on the current state of affairs in this country! ( current Government included)

Misguided and misinformed folks like yourself blow me away!

SnapTheFrog

Sep-02-2005, 11:19 AM

It's only my opinion, but I think it's too soon for fingers to be pointing. Historicaly, it's always the same. The truth comes out after all the dust has settled.

When the Titanic went down, the media was reporting that all were lost, none were lost, there was no truth to it hitting the ice berg, etc.

There's a lot of things we don't know and can't know. But sure, we can debate them, but to what end?
Yes, the levies could have been built better, but who can say they would have held up? Here in California, a lot of buildings that were earthquake rated went down like tinker toys.

Why didn't the National Guard do this, or patrol that? Again, don't know. Think about the last time you tried to get five of your friends to show up at the same place for dinner and on time? Now picture trying to do that for thousands.

I'm not making excuses or defending anyone, but what good will it do us to vent our anger and frustration when we don't know the entire truth? I'm sure they'll be plenty of blame to go around but in the mean time, yet, blaming doesn't fix the problem.

This isn't finger pointing, it's being responsible for your own decisions:
The only thing I know for a fact is that people were warned of the coming storm. There was a mandatory evacuation order given. That's the strongest warning the government can issue. They aren't going to kick in your door and drag you out. They figure, and rightly so, you're an adult, you've been warned, if you decide to stay then accept the outcome.

Those that chose to stay gambled with their and their familys lives. The storm came in and wreaked havoc on them. Now they're standing in front of news cameras condeming the government for not being there.

Of course there are exceptions. There are always exceptions.

And of course, the media is not there to do anything other than get ratings. This may sound like a grand exeration, but time and again, the media has demonstrated how they capitalize on fear. It wasn't bad enough that the storm took lives, but now reports are filled with shootings at helecopters. In fact, it happened one time. But the media blew it so far out of porportion, that the Governor stopped all rescue attempts by helo and boat. Once the facts were know, rescue operations were restarted. How many lives were lost because the of the media? We'll never know.

So yes, it's easy to find someone to pin the donkey tail on. I just caught myself doing it. Now I'm all pissed off and it's for nothing. I can't change what has already happened. Instead I'll try to change what will happen.

Good luck and God bless

dragon300zx

Sep-02-2005, 11:23 AM

they didn't help themselves get out of harms way, why should the government help? BEACAUSE IT'S WHAT AMERICA DOES! WE HELP THOSE WHO CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES. UNLESS THEY ARE POOR AND LIVE HERE.

i'm done.
To me the point is more that they didn't leave for whatever reason and now they are in this situation, rather than trying to make the best of it, they are making it worse.. It sucks, but america is trying to help them. All they have to do is keep it together, and help us help them. The coniditions there suck but that is not excuse for alot of the things that people down there are doing. Should we help, Yes. Should they sit there and expect us to solve there every problem, No. The first bus to the asto dome was a group that had organized themselves, found a bus, and did what they had to do. They didn't loot gun stores and start shooting at people trying to help them. They have a problem with no drinking water. Yet they are surrounded by tons of water. It wouldn't be too complicated to setup a system to do basic water filtration and boil it to make it drinkable. There is a problem with dead bodies everywhere. Ok so you organize and people move the bodies into a central location so they aren't strewn everywhere for the children to have to stare at constantly. They need to (I can't beleive I'm saying this) as the saying goes "Cowboy Up" and "take ownership" (can you tell I have sat through coutnless corporate meetings) of the situation. Yeah the response hasn't been as fast as it could have been but it was never going to be super fast. Like one of the generals said, "If you ever have 20,000 people come to supper, you know what I'm talking about," the general said. "If it was easy, it would have been done already." Not taking into consideration that only certain vehicles can even make it through the street there with the flooding and debris. It's a huge logistics nightmare that is only made even worse by the refugee's own actions.

mercphoto

Sep-02-2005, 11:29 AM

-have you ever had to live pay check to pay check?
Yes. And I made decisions in my life to make that situation change. I also know a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck who refuse to own up to why that is, or to make the changes that are in their control to get themselves out of that situation. Its just too easy to blame other people.

-do you have the foggiest clue as to the poverty rate in the South (New Orleans)?
Yes. I've seen it first hand.

-where was Gov't assistance to organize transportation for the poverty stricken elderly??
-what about the poorest of the poor who did not have a car, money for a full tank of gas, or even the cash for a simple bus ride out of town (not that there would have been enough private sector bus's to do the job!)
As I have said MANY MANY TIMES, yes I know not everyone had the ability to evacuate. What I have said MANY MANY TIMES is that who could but chose not to made a poor choice. That choice has made matters worse than it needed to be. That is not refutable. Its also not cold-hearted to say. Its the simple truth.

Bill...perhaps it is time folks like yourself, to put down your camera or golf club and do some reading on the current state of affairs in this country! ( current Government included)

Misguided and misinformed folks like yourself blow me away!
Please, please please re-read what I actually wrote rather than what you think I wrote or rather what you hope I wrote. I explicitly said I am not saying we shouldn't help these people. What I am saying is that if people do not live up to the consequences of the choices they make in life they are not doing themselves any favors.

Its as simple as that.

By the way, I don't play golf. Nice of you to be that prejudiced though.

dragon300zx

Sep-02-2005, 11:36 AM

:Public Service Announcment:

Let's just all remember that we all have our rights to our own opinions, and to voice them. Even if we don't agree. And for that matter no one here has said something that wasn't a valid point, that was right or wrong. We all get along pretty good so let's not let the goverment's disgrace become ours.

I'm very much an information freak and seek to know as many points of view and everything thats going on as I can which is why I made the original post. In some ways this disaster is just going to prove what a strong and caring country we are, and in others it is disgracing us and showing us for the first time what the rest of the world can feel like at times, as well as how we look to them from their eyes.

Harryb

Sep-02-2005, 12:36 PM

[QUOTE=mercphoto]Quite possibly, maybe everyone should read that book.

You liked to twist my words, Harry. I never said everyone could evacuate. I said those that could and chose not to are making the problem worse for those who could not. Yes, not everyone could get out of dodge, for a variety of reasons. But a large number of those who are still there had the ability and chose not to. That is causing the problem to be worse than it needed to be.

Of course they are making the problem worse. If they had left they wouldn't need to be rescued now. Accepting that fact is kind of meaningless. In every emergency there are those who chosse correctly and those who make the wrong choice. Last year I choose to ride out the hurricanes in my neck of the woods. My friends who evacuated had a much rougher time than I did. I remember folks who went to Daytona to escape the storm and found out that the storm had changed course and was headed for Daytona.

I have no problem helping those who could not get out of dodge. But those who could, and blame only the government and refuse to accept the fact that they are in a life-threatening situation out of their own voluntary choice is a recipe for making that same mistake all over again. People need to own up to when they make a poor choice, otherwise mistakes will happen again.

Sorry but you are really off the mark here. People will look at their choices and many will realize that they goofed. The issue here is not personal responsibility but the inability of the Federal government to effectively coordinate an effective response to the situation. This is a federal responsibility not an individual responibility. The response is inadequate and people are dying because of this failure of leadership.

I am not saying "don't help these people". What I am saying is "they need to take part of the blame for the position that they are in". This problem did not need to be as bad as it has become. I'm sorry for this, I do realize it is politically incorrect for people to take responsibility for their own actions. Maybe as punishment I should be forced to read the writings of Karl Marx.
Sorry but the failure to have an effective plan to one: prevent or lessen the impact of what happened; two to evacuate the affected areas; and three to respond to an event that was predicted and we knew could very likely happen are not the responsibility of the individual citizens of the affected areas. I don't give a hoot if Joe Smith was an idiot and didn't evacuate. Thats an issue for him to resolve. I do give a damn that we are unable to respond to the situation effectively. The simple fact is that we failed this test. We have to look at what happened and make sure that it never happens again. Its not liberalism, its not conservatism, its just plain old common sense.

Andy

Sep-02-2005, 12:49 PM

we don't get a lot of these threads here so i'll be brief:

1) keep it civil
2) no personal attacks - if you don't like what a poster's saying then find a way to rebut *without* getting personal.
3) see #s 1 and 2

thank you

Anson

Sep-02-2005, 01:04 PM

Bill,

Thanks for your clarification on your initial post, although not necessary, as your message came across loud and clear on your first attempt!

As for golf, great game, good for the head and the heart.
I am now 49 and picked the game up quite late, as I was in my late teens before experiencing my first 18 holes.
You should give it a go, as it is quite enjoyable.

p.s. an update on New Orleans ..(see: Bigfoot's phone number)
Blog- http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

Regards,

mercphoto

Sep-02-2005, 01:20 PM

Harryb

Sep-02-2005, 01:53 PM

Harry, I'll be real brief here and then leave this thread. You only want to blame the government, and place none of the blame on the individuals who made the poor choice to stick around. I'm blaming all parties, because frankly blame does belong everywhere. The fact that you see zero personal responsibility in all this is distressing. I don't know what share of the blame should be assigned to personal responsibilty, but it certainly isn't zero.
Thats because the government is responsible to me as a citizen of this country. Individuals have to take responsibility for themselves and are not answerable to me.

I don't see what the purpose of asking if the folks at the convention center are responsible for being there. The fact is that they are there. The fact is they need help. Even the Prez says the response hasn't been adequate. I blame our leaders and agencies for the inadequate response. We need to look at what happened and why we failed. Saying that the folks who didn't evacuate are partly to blame does nothing to resolve the fact that the agencies who were responsible for responding failed. Thats the issue that has to be addressed once we get past this tragedy. Thats the issue that concerns me as a citizen and a voter.

gluwater

Sep-02-2005, 02:00 PM

There is blame to spread everywhere with regards to New Orleans.

3) Why was the National Guard not put on immediate notice BEFORE the hurricane hit?

4) Looting for food and water is absolutely acceptable. I would do the very same thing. Looting for televisions and jewelry IS CRIMINAL. Shooting at evacuation helicopters and busses is CRIMINAL. Forcing health care providers to the upper levels of a hospital because of lawlessness and looting in the lower floors is CRIMINAL. I don't care if its a "small percent of the people" because they cause a HUGE PERCENT OF THE PROBLEM.

5) Why didn't anyone put a security force at the Super Dome so that thugs can't cause fights, violence and rapes in the first place?

6) What is taking the State and the Feds so long to bring in troops and TAKE CONTROL THROUGH FORCE and martial law?
Martal Law? I really doubt that. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the most informed person when it comes to politics and so forth but I really can't see Martial Law being put into effect. I think it should have been put into effect before this struck to force people to evacuate, and if not then now to try to protect the people that are stuck there, regardless of why they stayed. But martial law would prove that we failed, that the system didn't work.

National guard and the military, they are spread so thin across the world, especially in Iraq that we just don't have the human resources to pull off such an undertaking at the moment. The Reserves near me in North Riverside IL just got deployed to Iraq, 2000 people that could have been used in this effort. But no, they were sent overseas. my friend in Ft Brag is being delployed to New Orleans but it seems to be too little too late.

I don't think now is the time to blame anyone, there will be plenty of time for that later. Now is the time to prove me wrong Pres Bush and other head officials, prove that you can take care of your own people, pull troops out of Iraq if they are needed, declare martial law, do something.

I just read this article on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html) and I just about burst into tears. I just don't have any more word to describe what I feel right now.

Angelo

Sep-02-2005, 02:25 PM

Katrina hit Florida on Saturday and the Gulf on Sunday and land on Monday.

Monday - President Bush is at a fund raiser in Orange County, CA

Monday - Reverend Phelps blames the hurricane on gays.

Monday - Ralph Reed (Christian Coalition) blames it on abortionists.

Tuesday - President Bush is at a fund raiser in San Diego, CA

Wednesday - President Bush is golfing in Arizona

Wednesday - President Bush cuts his vacation short (after 5 weeks???)

Wednesday - Secretary Rice is shopping in NYC. Attends the theater.

Thursday - In response to gasoline prices, President Bush tels the nation "...it's to be expected..." rather than issue warnings against price gouging.

Thursday - House Speaker Hastert says "New Orleans doesn't deserve to be saved"

Friday - Congress votes on $10 billion aid package - absent from vote...? Speaker Hastert who is at a fund raiser.

Friday - VP Cheney is still on vacation.

2002 & 2003 & 2004 - President Bush cuts budget for Army Corp of Engineer reconstruction program of gulf port levies.

2003 & 2004 - President Bush cuts FEMA Disaster Relief Budget

2002 & 2003 & 2004 & 2005 - Government pours $200 billion+ into Iraq... $90 billion missing and unaccounted for. $17 million+ paid to Halliburton in No-bid contracts.

gluwater

Sep-02-2005, 02:26 PM

I hope everyone has seen this thread. Smugmug matching donations

ehughes

Sep-02-2005, 02:56 PM

Angelo

Sep-02-2005, 03:36 PM

I swore that I was not going to get involved in this thread but, what the hell.

You can point fingers and blame whoever you want to at this point, I really don't care, it is doing nothing to solve THIS problem. We'll have plenty of time to argue, point fingers and apply what we have learned to help protect american lives in the future once the dust has settled.

What we need to do is see what WE can do to help those in need RIGHT NOW.

You don't have to donate a large amount of money or even give more than you can afford, but give a couple bucks if you can afford it and let's work the problem.

My dad is a Red Cross volunteer and leaves tomorrow to see what he can do to help the situation, he has participated in every Flood, earthquake, hurricane for the last 15 years. I have often been concerned for his safety when he goes to help but this is the first time I have actually asked him not to go because I worried about his personal safety from the people he goes out of his way to try and help. Yet he leaves tomorrow morning to go see what he can do to help.

I think we can all learn a lesson from his actions. We have no friends or family in the area. But he told me last night, they're Americans.. we're all family.

Ed
Ed - you're absolutely right. Maybe we can change the timber of this thread by displaying what has been done and what more can be done.

I started an employee donation campaign at work and we have collected $9500 in 2.5 days and with matching funds that equals 19000 and growing. I also have sheparded a blood donation campaign and 50 employees have already donated.
The past 2 evenings I have shown up at Red Cross collection sites (with water and snacks) and helped out. I'm not an official RC volunteer so I couldn't handle money so I helped clean up and break down boxes and bundled donated goods.

gsgary

Sep-02-2005, 04:42 PM

I am really worried from what i am seeing on TV most of the people that are in trouble are black i hope it does not have anything to do with the colour of skin
Gary

gsgary

Sep-02-2005, 04:43 PM

Nice one Angelo:clap Ed - you're absolutely right. Maybe we can change the timber of this thread by displaying what has been done and what more can be done.

I started an employee donation campaign at work and we have collected $9500 in 2.5 days and with matching funds that equals 19000 and growing. I also have sheparded a blood donation campaign and 50 employees have already donated.
The past 2 evenings I have shown up at Red Cross collection sites (with water and snacks) and helped out. I'm not an official RC volunteer so I couldn't handle money so I helped clean up and break down boxes and bundled donated goods.

gsgary

Sep-02-2005, 04:56 PM

Why arn't people coming in from the nearest towns and Cities with cars vans buses lorries and helping the people of New Orleans i am getting very upset her in the Uk watching what is happening please help the people of New Orleans

Gary

Angelo

Sep-03-2005, 07:54 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/opinion/03dowd.html

Oakley

Sep-03-2005, 08:06 AM

Angelo

Sep-03-2005, 10:45 AM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-worldreax3sep03,0,6844871.story?coll=la-home-headlines

colourbox

Sep-03-2005, 11:24 AM

behr655

Sep-03-2005, 11:29 AM

No matter who is truly right or wrong, it is sad to see how the rest of the world perceives us now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4211320.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210674.stm
Does FEMA really have to have a go ahead from the president to take action?
Poor George, everyone loves to whip him.

Bear

Anson

Sep-03-2005, 12:04 PM

3:42 PM Saturday "why is it that trucks of NBC are here and..."

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB112558354053629071-_S_bQOoFXC04G7cyYosV_f6v6m4_20060902,00.html?mod=b logs

................the answer is more of the same from current leadership:bigbs

ehughes

Sep-03-2005, 01:54 PM

Angelo

Sep-03-2005, 02:29 PM

Does FEMA really have to have a go ahead from the president to take action?
Poor George, everyone loves to whip him.

Bear
Firstly; because we are a Federalist form of government there needs to be a request made by the states for federal interaction. (The Govenor of LA declared a state of emergency 2 days before Katrina hit and asked the White House for assistance)

Secondly; previous to this administration the FEMA Director was free to act with the full authority of his post to respond to such state requests. Good 'ole Dubya chose to consolidate FEMA into the Homeland Security Department and cut its budget at the same time.

Anson

Sep-03-2005, 03:37 PM

Ed

Super-fantastic that your Dad is helping in the heat of the battle.
The folks that are working 24 /7 are the best. Period!

Although, we will quickly learn, as the next few days roll along that folks in 100's of outpost areas, will continue to endure another 2/3/4 days (perhaps a week? who knows?) before FEMA, RedCross, National Gaurd etc. are able to get to these specific locations, over a large geographic area.

Of ALL the locations hit by the storm, what percentage of these areas are currently being covered by all media outlets? (I would suggest to you at this time, that the percentage is very small indeed!) and all this week the media has got to the storm hit areas, long before any one else!

Heck, as I write this note, the bulk of rescue is primarily focused on the Convention center in New Orleans, as they now have everyone out of the Dome..still working on the Convention Center and the Heli's are feverishly picking folks of the roofs in New Orleans.

*No blame suggested, just the reality of who's boots are on the ground and where!

You might want to turn on your TV! ...as there have been TV news reports TODAY, covering communities out of Florida helping neighbors hit by the storm...no FEMA/Redcross etc. as yet in these communities!
Just neighbors helping neighbors!

As we type our little notes back and forth to each other ..if you are suggesting that every location along Mississippi, Alabama, etc. ...let alone within New Orleans city limits itself has rescuers in place!....
with all due respect, I think not!
though...Time Will Tell!

Best Regards,

p.s. the following is an online BLOG that you may be interested in

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

as of 2:01 PM -Today!!-
"Now this is something that requires tact, and I do not have much experience with reporting, but I think the world needs to know how overwhelmed the police are out here: I have reports from 3 different police sources that 2 police officers have committed suicide. Out of respect for their families, I will not name them or go into detail. Truly tragic how bad things are. I sincerely hope I did the right thing in reporting this."

PossumCorner

Sep-04-2005, 03:03 AM

I don't know about disgrace - no disgrace accords to the people who are knocking themselves out to do something, to get it right. Sure there is a lot of anger, but anger is part of grief. The blaming will go on for ever, but surely it is too huge and too complex to simply blame "across the board". We probably get some slightly different reports in Australia, as our news teams there send their stuff back direct. One tonight (we are night-time just now) told of some "looters" who took their stolen food and drink into the stadium and gave it out to the neediest. Told of US citizens who drove extraordinary distances from their safe homes carrying everything they owned to give away to the refugees. Told of police officer supposedly "guarding" a shop whose conscience would not let him prevent people from taking food and drink so desparately needed.

On this thread, one thing I couldn't help noticing - where are the female DGrinners? Has every post been from one of the fellers? I thank everyone who has posted here, because it has helped me understand how much people who are not in the zone are hurting. But I'd like to hear what Ginger feels, Ann, Lyn, Snapapple, on the opinions and thoughts and reactions that this thread has drawn out. We share your grief, but the feeling here seems more of intense helpless sympathy, not of criticism or anger.

ginger_55

Sep-04-2005, 05:13 AM

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/

Has this been posted, an old Natl Geo article. WOW, if true. I have not checked it out, I mean I read it, but I just woke up and I have not gone to see if it is bogus, but I don't see how it could be.

Funny, I should come to post this and see the thing from Possum re "where are the women?". It has often crossed my mind that this is the one place I belong to that is dominantly male, and it really is, isn't it???

I usually think about that when I am having a "reaction" to something. However, it is just interesting.

I did not know this thread was here until like yesterday, I happened on it by accident. I probably would have commented if I had noticed it earlier. I don't think the subject heading is that subject specific, if that makes sense. I am on a small, maybe 12 active people, international group from my hard of hearing club who are very interested in politics, natl, international, etc. affairs. Things can be talked about there that can't be talked about other places.

I was "no mail" with them for awhile, and I went back to being active a few days ago, and there is where I have been pouring out my heart and my feelings.

I was so gratified that I cried when I had posted about an animal help organization called Noah's Wish, and a "friend" from that group donated to them.

I am coming from a different perspective. I live in the SC lowlands. We, in 1989, had the first of the "most expensive" hurricanes in the US. It was Hugo bull's eye, Charleston. I was living, renting, on a barrier island. The same one my church is on. The scenes I see on TV now are a magnified, much larger version of the one I lived through, as I feel it. As I told the other group, a flooded island is a flooded island. The city was devastated, but not in the way of New Orleans. The worst hit place was north of us, in the way of hurricanes, a place called McClellanville, I think, my spelling might be off. But my life was changed forever. There were similarities. And differences. But I have dealt with the organizations. I have posted elsewhere that FEMA sucked, the Red Cross was OK, but that the best places were the religious organizations as they are not buried in the buraucracy. I got my help from the Catholic Church, but all the religious groups were, and still are, very active in that type of thing.

So, I am having a lot of trouble with this emotionally myself. To me it is the worst thing I have ever seen. Emotionally I feel it much more than I ever felt 9/11, and I am sure people in the NYC area would still relate closer to 9/11, but this is terrible.

And not just for now, I expected a big hurricane to hit Charleston this year. We are due, the Atlantic is right. And this area is so built up that imo it cannot be evacuated effectively. I expected to be very inconvenienced, scared, and I would have to leave home early, often (they never know really where the hurricane is going), etc.

The big concern I have is we are not fighting terrorists here, IMO, we are fighting a change in the climate, global warming, etc. In essence, I see that we are the enemy ourselves, it is an internal battle. To drive or not to drive, AC or not, big cars, little cars, and much more than that I am afraid. I am really scared for the future.

As far as blame, well, did I mention that my little group is very liberal? They are. Except for one lone male conservative voice, who is still more liberal than other people I know. They, these liberals, are trying to sort through their own feelings. I think right now, there is growing sentiment that the "blame game" is not appropriate. There is anger at Michael Moore. What has happened has happened. And this is the time to fix it, if possible. How, or even if, it should be fixed is an issue. Lives should be saved. Etc.

However, at the same time, I am having my own flashbacks to the devastation of losing my home and everything in it.

I am not in a financial position to do more than the most token of responses, so I was really moved to tears when Linda on that group did donate to that animal group. I am very upset when I see the animals. And I do believe strongly in the religious orgs, I have had good feelings about Catholic Charities for a long time. I trust them. Linda, nowhere near ever being a catholic, she has tried to donate to them, but is having trouble getting the money to them easily. Linda is a social worker, she has a cochlear implant for her hearing, such as it is, she is in upstate NY, she has worked with Catholic Charities and has seen them in action. Next paycheck, she is hoping to get through to them.

I don't feel too bad that she has not gotten to them as I feel that it is a very popular org that is being mentioned all over the internet. People will be donating in churches, today and lots of times, for the people. But the animals, I was so grateful, just so.......

I have sat on my couch with my dogs, and I have promised them that I will never leave them. That is my emotional response. They do not watch TV with comprehension, smile, so they have no idea, but they do have their own concerns. I accidentally flooded the house the other day and the whole downstairs is still wet from that. (Long story I have told practically no one), but the dogs can't sit down anywhere and be dry unless it is in their crates or on the couch. So I have spend more time with them on the couch, and especially my male Corgi, he has been very upset, so I have sat there and cried with them, and in that respect I have told them I would never leave him, or any of them.

I am not a disinterested party here, I have been through something similar, I am still living it to a degree...........

I will say that when you are there, the whys and wherefores, there is no time for that, there is only time for problem solving. I did get help from everyone, I had renters insurance. I got my senator's office involved and finally fema helped me w something like 500.00. Red cross provided me w a mattress. But my church stood willing to do whatever it took. That is strong stuff. I continued to vote for Fritz Hollings until he retired, last year. He is also upset w Fema,again, and is reliving this stuff. He still lives on one of the islands, but he has been through this, though he has the means to get through it better, he .................well, you have to be there. And he has, to a degree. And his machine was terrific. Same, somewhat w Strom Thurmond, I am not in favor of term limits. Etc. I still go to the same church, but I do not live on the island.

I actually think it all sucks and there is so much involved it is not a simple thing. But I do not really think these areas should be built up in the first place.

That Natl Geographic article is interesting.

ginger

PossumCorner

Sep-04-2005, 06:45 AM

That is an amazing article - it doesn't "look" bogus, and the links from it seem all genuine. The day the hurricane came on shore and we were all being told it was not as bad as feared, my first concern then was for the pets being abandoned by the evacuation. An animal welfare agency in Australia was already asking for donations to help kit up the US agencies to get trucks in to pick up stranded animals. I'd mentioned that in Andy's first thread in News and Events (he was way ahead of everyone here), then I felt a bit worried that I would be dumped on for putting animals first when it suddenly all became very different. Anyway, they are asking us to donate direct to the US Agency now - I think their website is www.ifaw.org (http://www.ifaw.org/) - to help with pet rescue. .... yes that's the one, it has a bit of background on what they are doing and hope to do.

digismile

Sep-04-2005, 08:27 AM

Ginger,

I have this issue of National Geographic. I found the article very discouraging ...

Brad

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/
That Natl Geographic article is interesting.

ginger

Trish323

Sep-04-2005, 09:00 AM

My only words suitable for print are for the masses of humanity who have suffered greatly: May peace of mind one day find you. I will continue to do all I can to help. Have faith in your fellow man...We do care...

mercphoto

Sep-06-2005, 07:44 AM

Hate to put a damper in all the anti-Bush people over Katrina. (Ok, I'll admit, I LOVE putting a damper in all the anti-Bush rhetoric. Just interjecting some reality here):

we are now learning that Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco might have had a direct role in delaying federal assistance in the Katrina disaster. The story is surfacing that at one point George Bush offered federal help, and Governor Blanco, a Democrat, by the way, said that she preferred to wait for 24 hours before she made that request. That sure gets in the way of the Blame Bush game, doesn't it?

Sources:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/5/234033.shtml
http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

Funny how I don't see this on CNN...

Harryb

Sep-06-2005, 08:23 AM

Gosh a link to two right wing web sites. What a shock that they have a rather singular view of events. Here's a link to the National Geographic that is a bit more objective and insightful.

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/ (http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/)

ginger_55

Sep-06-2005, 08:23 AM

Hate to put a damper in all the anti-Bush people over Katrina. (Ok, I'll admit, I LOVE putting a damper in all the anti-Bush rhetoric. Just interjecting some reality here):

Sources:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/5/234033.shtml
http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

Funny how I don't see this on CNN...

Funny, I saw it on CNN this morning,

ginger

mercphoto

Sep-06-2005, 08:29 AM

National Geographic isn't singular and left-wing in its view??? Please...

SnapHappy

Sep-06-2005, 08:43 AM

As a brit watching what has and is unfolding before my eyes in this sad event i am dumfounded that things have to turned into a blame game.

I find it absolutely disgraceful how Bush has failed in preparation and action when dealing with this. What I have seen on news reports are blatant political moves/photo and damage opps and not enough action. Too many speeches and not enough action. Whilst all this was happening I was watching BBC world from Spain last week as their reporters toured around New Orleans saving people from their houses in a small boat with just the odd sighting of rescue helicopters. Even reports that they were just dropping reserves and not picking stranded people up!
Where were the rescue boats? It was highly apparent that local services had been affected by the hurricane, so we can't blame them. Why wasn't reserves brought into the surrounding states ready to act within a day, and why was there no aid, water, food, clothing moved to surrounding states in preparation? How is it that the media could access and save people so early?

The fact there is large scale looting is unfortunate but IMO necessary for people to survive. The fact that this has extended into violent looting could be down to the gun policy and does of course need to be sorted with the same. BUT....how can they justify what many have said and what I have seen......hundreds of soldiers/police armed and only one or two doctors in entire districts?

I truly hope things get better sooner for all the people involved. It is a very sad time for the USA and all who are involved. My heart goes out to each and every one of them.

(I do think that Bush is in for a hard time with this and rightly so. His policies on Global warming leave a lot to be desired.)

sorry for the bush rant!

dragon300zx

Sep-06-2005, 08:53 AM

There were so many problems here it is crazy. Our goverment failed our people, our people failed our people, our media failed our people. Our federal goverment's policies have been lacking for some time. It's not just Bush (although he is a big part of the problem if you ask me) but everyone else in the goverment too (congress, etc). The state goverment had their head in the sand hoping if they didn't see what was going on it wouldn't really be happening (with some exceptions like mayor nagin (who I have other issues with)). Our people down there also failed. Many stayed who could have fled, Many looted, shot, and broke laws, when they could have helped. It's interesting to see see the way things were in the past compared to how they are now. Even with all of our advanced technology, higher IQ's and what not we are actually in many ways worse off as a society today than we were 50-100 years ago. We are just asking for a collapse of our way of life if you ask me.

As a brit watching what has and is unfolding before my eyes in this sad event i am dumfounded that things have to turned into a blame game.

I find it absolutely disgraceful how Bush has failed in preparation and action when dealing with this. What I have seen on news reports are blatant political moves/photo and damage opps and not enough action. Too many speeches and not enough action. Whilst all this was happening I was watching BBC world from Spain last week as their reporters toured around New Orleans saving people from their houses in a small boat with just the odd sighting of rescue helicopters. Even reports that they were just dropping reserves and not picking stranded people up!
Where were the rescue boats? It was highly apparent that local services had been affected by the hurricane, so we can't blame them. Why wasn't reserves brought into the surrounding states ready to act within a day, and why was there no aid, water, food, clothing moved to surrounding states in preparation? How is it that the media could access and save people so early?

The fact there is large scale looting is unfortunate but IMO necessary for people to survive. The fact that this has extended into violent looting could be down to the gun policy and does of course need to be sorted with the same. BUT....how can they justify what many have said and what I have seen......hundreds of soldiers/police armed and only one or two doctors in entire districts?

I truly hope things get better sooner for all the people involved. It is a very sad time for the USA and all who are involved. My heart goes out to each and every one of them.

(I do think that Bush is in for a hard time with this and rightly so. His policies on Global warming leave a lot to be desired.)

sorry for the bush rant!

Harryb

Sep-06-2005, 08:56 AM

National Geographic isn't singular and left-wing in its view??? Please...Golly we all know the National Geograhic is a hot bed of communism. http://dgrin.com/images/smilies/roflol.gif

What you can't dispute is that their article, written in 1994, just about predicts exactly what happened to New Orleans.

Its not left wing or right wing to admit that the federal response to Katrina was inadequate. Its more common sense and not a question of ideology. The Head of FEMA Mr. Brown got his job as a political payback. His former was job was as the President of the Arabian Horse Association and he was under fire there when he got appointed to his FEMA position. His main qualification seems to be that he was the college roomate of one of Bush's campaign managers.

The practice of giving unqualified individuals important jobs as political payback is a practice that both political parties engage in. Its time that we as citizens demand that it stop.

Our congress recently passed a multi billion dollar transportation bill loaded up with over 6000 special projects (aka Pork). Thats a practice that both parties are equally guilty of and one that also has to be stopped. Our resources have to expended on projects that are really needed and not ones who sole purpose is to make some local politico look good.

Katrina has given us a sobering lesson in the price that we may have to pay unless we put aside partisan politics and demand competency instead of adherence to whatever our political beliefs are. I am sure that if Kerry had won the election his response would have been no better than Bush's. One of my favorite quotes from this disaster comes from the president of Jefferson Parrish who said:

"So I'm asking Congress, please investigate this now. Take whatever idiot they have at the top of whatever agency and give me a better idiot. Give me a caring idiot. Give me a sensitive idiot. Just don't give me the same idiot."

Frank

Sep-06-2005, 08:59 AM

Hi Bill,

Based on the content, I'm guessing that you meant your post to be amusing, but if so you forgot to include a smiley.

Hate to put a damper in all the anti-Bush people over Katrina. (Ok, I'll admit, I LOVE putting a damper in all the anti-Bush rhetoric. Just interjecting some reality here): I could care less about dampers, but you forgot to include a timestamp on your interjected "reality." Governor Blanco's comments were made BEFORE Katrina even hit the coast, which I believe was mentioned on CNN. Not that it would matter anyway, unless you are suggesting that the Fed ignore their charter based on the governor's words.

Sources:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/5/234033.shtml
http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
Oops! newsmax and Boortz???
Why would you list these as "Sources" of news? Why not Rove, Rice, or Cheney?

Funny how I don't see this on CNN... CNN is the Cable News Network. IMHO you SHOULD NOT see chatter like this on a NEWS network, that is why newsmax and Boretz exist.

You also seem concerned about republican and democrat labels, which are also of no importance to me. My concerns are family, friends, and human dignity.
All of which continue to suffer greatly under the likes of Bush. If you get a free moment, try a personal inventory and see if you have family, friends, and dignity - You will then undestand what I mean.

Thanks for your consideration,

- Frank

mercphoto

Sep-06-2005, 09:27 AM

If you get a free moment, try a personal inventory and see if you have family, friends, and dignity - You will then undestand what I mean.
Last I checked, my friends, family and dignity are all doing just fine. But thanks for your concern.

Geeze, seems like it is perfectly acceptable to present left-wing views here, but try to present a conservative view and you get speared. Nice to see it.

ginger_55

Sep-06-2005, 09:39 AM

Last I checked, my friends, family and dignity are all doing just fine. But thanks for your concern.

Geeze, seems like it is perfectly acceptable to present left-wing views here, but try to present a conservative view and you get speared. Nice to see it.
I am quite open re my liberal views, but some of my best friends, and one son, are conservatives. I belong to groups where politics cannot be mentioned and groups where a discussion of politics is the reason to be, so to speak.

However, when you decide to make a point, it helps to say as little as possible and not include information that is wrong. I keep CNN on, so if I am home and looking at the captions, I see what is on it.

I am glad that your family, etc, are all fine.

ginger

Harryb

Sep-06-2005, 09:42 AM

Last I checked, my friends, family and dignity are all doing just fine. But thanks for your concern.

Geeze, seems like it is perfectly acceptable to present left-wing views here, but try to present a conservative view and you get speared. Nice to see it.

:tough So far the discussion has been rather civil. To find the response to Katrina lacking does not have to have an ideological bent to it. I would be a critical of the response no matter which party was in office.

One thing I find interesting about the coverage of the disaster has been the impact of the visual images. Seeing those images transcend the press conferences and give lie to the self serving CYA statments released by various politicans.

The images make political ideology unimportant. The issue is not politics but peoples lives.

ginger_55

Sep-06-2005, 09:44 AM

I wish they would let the animals on the rescue boats with the people. If they would do that, I would have more sympathy for the people who are trying to get all of the people evacuated.

And the media who is/are covering the stories, as individual stories, why don't they put the subject who won't leave because of animals, in their boat, or whatever they are using, with the animal.

I went to CNN to see if there was a place to make my views on this known. I didn't see one. If anyone knows of an effective place to post, please let me know.

I am tired of hearing about people who need to leave, but won't. Then it is reported that it is because they won't leave their animals like that is idiotic behavior.

Rant, sorry,

ginger (I have copied sites mentioned here and posted them on another site. I appreciate the information.)

Angelo

Sep-06-2005, 10:18 AM

I'm going to bite my tongue and let history be the judge of what's happened over the past week.

What I find sad is no one posted to this thread with positive input about what they were doing as individuals following Ed's post (#40) and my post (#41).

Add one sentence to the thread, however slanted or misguided, and the sharks go wild.

Let's focus on the good we can do for our fellow man. Sheesh!

Anson

Sep-06-2005, 10:23 AM

Frank

I was going to send Bill Jurasz a private message, essentially mirroring your thoughts (before I read your thoughts) to avoid the back and forth..so no need to restate, but heck, while I am here...

Dear Bill,

The current leadership (term used very loosely) and the majority of its supporters, continue to amaze me...how far does this country have to plummet, until some citizens of USA, begin to figure out, that if the tires are coming of in many areas of our society, something/s has to give..some folks (leadership) have to begin to accept responsibility...

At what point will this Whitehouse consider the following..
"The Buck Stops Here!"
I for one, am not holding my breath.

It thoroughly amazes me, that almost half of the country, such as apparently yourself, still have their heads, DEEP in the http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/AnsonM/headsand.jpg

Over the last few years I have often wondered, what is the non-negotiable issue/s that these core group of current Republican supporters not willing to budge on, therefore choosing to continue to support an extremely flawed USA Leadership on many counts?

Is it...
-Right to Life? (what about the Right to Life of the dead -innocent- Iraqi citizens?)
-Cheap gas? oops, to late! (at the expense of the environment and other Nations citizens right to Govern themselves -perhaps you might like to research Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia for a little background on exactly how that particular mess came to be..(see cheap gas)
or better still, check out a book, Economic Hitman http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/perkins.html
-Morality (my personal favorite, not near enough time on this post to get into that one)
-?

How far are current Government supporters, going to allow this country to falter, based on their standing firm on personal non-negotiable issues (which are proving to be extremely detrimental for the big picture) before they finally wake up and get their
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/AnsonM/headsand.jpg

Bill, re: your Epiphany ..
"National Geographic isn't singular and left-wing in its view??? Please..."
..does not surprise me, based on your party's track record, but it never ceases to amaze me!

Bill..please expand your world, by accessing your news sources from places besides Fox News, Hannity & Co., oh yes and Newsmax.com -(lord have mercy- save us all!) ...the sources named, are like trying to make sense of an Ocean of world news/misinformation/events (oops my mistake, I meant USA news/misinformation/events) by drinking through a red soda straw..

Unfortunately for ALL of us, you are accessing the purest source of propaganda, available in this country today. Straight from the best darn propaganda machine, that has Ever controlled the White House.
The current leadership has Bamboozled half of this countries population and unfortunately (finally), the 'chickens are coming home to roost"

Heaven help this country!

mercphoto

Sep-06-2005, 10:43 AM

Kyoto was voted down 99-0 by the Senate during the CLINTON years. And yet all the blame is on Bush?

Clinton could have taken out Bin Laden on at least three occasions and refused to act. Clinton also refused to retaliate for embassy bombings, the Cole bombing, and tucked his tail and ran in the midst of a mild military setback in Africa, further emboldening the terrorists. And yet this is all Bush's fault?

The City of New Orleans had zero evacuation plan for a disaster it KNEW was going to happen at some point in time. Bush's fault? The governor of Louisianna had to "think" about possible federal help, and then blames Bush when that help is not immediately available?

The people of New Orleans loot televisions instead of seek their survival. Rather than condemn this, the Democratic leadership claims people were doing this to "barter for food". Are they serious? They rape people and provoke violence. They shoot at rescue helicoptors. People at this very moment are STILL refusing to evacuate, even as they are surrounded by flood waters and no food. And yet it is politically incorrect to partially blame these very people for part of their dire circumstance?

I'm not saying Bush is all good. As an atheist I despise the religious influence on the Republican party as just one example. What I'm trying to say is that all the blame laid at his feet is pure politics and is not a reflection of reality.

People are going too far in blaming Bush. Yes, some things were screwed up in what the Feds did. Ditto with the LA Governor, the NO Mayor, and the people themselves of NO. But then again, it has unfortunately become customary in America to expect the Federal Government to do everything for you and to accept no personal responsibility any longer. And that is sad.

People are blaming Bush for everything. I'm pointing out that blame belongs EVERYWHERE, including with the very citizens themselves, and yet I'm the one labelled singular in vision? Unbelievable. People really need to start reading what I actually am saying rather than what they think I am saying.

Gore voter 2000. Bush voter 2004. I vote for whatever party I feel imparts the least harm at the time of the vote. People are REALLY jumping to conclusions about my beliefs and voting patterns.

Harryb

Sep-06-2005, 11:26 AM

?

[QUOTE]People are blaming Bush for everything. I'm pointing out that blame belongs EVERYWHERE, including with the very citizens themselves, and yet I'm the one labelled singular in vision? Unbelievable. People really need to start reading what I actually am saying rather than what they think I am saying.

The seeds for the disaster were planted many years ago. We knew that the levees and flood walls were insufficient to handle a severe hurricane. We knew that the destruction of the wetlands was removing a natural buffer against storm surges, We knew (at least most of us knew) that global warming was increasing the temperature in the Gulf. This temperature increase won't make hurricanes more likely but it will increase the severity of hurricanes. This cuts across both Democratic and Republicans administrations. We didn't want to cut profits and/or spend the $ to do what we should have done.

To get hung up on the political partisanhip misses the lesson that can be learned here. Basically you have to bite the bullet and do what should be done. It may mean higher taxes or decreased profits but thats a price we have to paid. In this case that price would have been a lot less than what it will be when Katrina's final bill is totaled up.

The looting is nickel dime stuff. The fact that some people will commit criminal acts when order breaks down has been demonstrated so many times over that it should come as no surprise. In the end they will have stolen less $ than the folks who will submit phoney loss claims, the companies that will charge inflated prices, or the contractors who will make obscene profits from the rebuiding efforts. The lawlessness pretty much ceased once the Military made their delayed presence felt. Also a lot of the reaction to the looting has been racist in its nature. I loved the two photographs that were used. One photograph was of two black youths who were described as "Residents who were hauling the goods they had just looted", the second photograph showed a white family who were described as "residents with food they had found in a local store". :lol4

jwear

Sep-06-2005, 11:33 AM

Firstly; because we are a Federalist form of government there needs to be a request made by the states for federal interaction. (The Govenor of LA declared a state of emergency 2 days before Katrina hit and asked the White House for assistance)

Secondly; previous to this administration the FEMA Director was free to act with the full authority of his post to respond to such state requests. Good 'ole Dubya chose to consolidate FEMA into the Homeland Security Department and cut its budget at the same time.this is not right the GOV of LA did not !the GOVs of alabama and mississippi did and do you hear anything or has anyone of the finger pointing people talked about those states --not that i see here LA was not the only state that got hit --just the only place that that did not and was not ready --so you all go back to monday quarterbacking and finger pointing i will not say that democrats love to finger point oh i just did

mercphoto

Sep-06-2005, 11:38 AM

This cuts across both Democratic and Republicans administrations.
Agreed.

Anson

Sep-06-2005, 12:17 PM

*the internet (typing) is not the best place for either one of us to concisely get our points of view, including all nuances across...

I agree with you on some areas...

..such as... when we point a finger at whatever Government is in the White House, two fingers always point back to ourselves, the individual. (although I am currently pointing four of my five fingers at this current crop of WhiteHouse clowns, leaving one finger pointing back at me)

This latest Katrina catastrophe, simply and clearly magnifies our countries #1 challenge,

“What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state and the Have’s v.s. Have Not’s
The welfare (or lack of) state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.” -end quote-

If we as a Nation choose to ignore the poor/uneducated/helpless, then what we have seen in New Orleans, is just a warm up on what to expect in the coming decades (you pick the city), if we as a society continue on the path we are on today!

We in USA are going to be forced to make some TOUGH choices:

(as a very rough example I have chosen- Brazil and Sweden)

We (USA) as a people, must decide whether we continue to move closer to Brazil mindset OR move closer to (say) the Swedish form of Government,

There will be a steep price ($) to pay, no matter which path we ultimately choose as a nation

Brazil (Virtually no central Gov’t = low or no tax on the wealthy= Zero safety net for its poor, which represents the majority of the countries population)

“Organized crime groups in Rio de Janeiro and other major Brazilian cities have become increasingly involved in politics in recent years. But now Brazilian gangs with known ties to Colombian militants and corrupt military officers in Paraguay and Argentina also are adopting a populist political rhetoric to justify their criminal activities. If the gangs take the next logical step -- to link politically with Brazil's Landless Movement -- within a couple of years, President Luiz Inacio "Lula" da Silva's government might be facing a security nightmare that could destabilize Brazil politically and undermine its economic growth.” –end quote-

As a US citizen living in a future society that chooses to govern more like Brazil, then yes, you will get to keep ALL of your money..but you will also be forced to pay an extremely high percentage of it out in Personal Security, such as lions roaming free on your property to guard one's residence-security guards to protect against kidnapping for ransom on your daily shopping/dining/school outings, etc, etc.

Or

Sweden (Large Government presence = much higher tax rate than we (USA) are used to paying = significant safety net for its poor)

‘hence a significantly more civil society in which one is not scared for their life, to go alone (with security and piece of mind) to shop at the local market, walk down a street to have luuch at a restaurant with your friends, or send your kids to school without fear of kidnapping for ransom, etc., etc.’

We (all) as a society, have to (will be forced) get our heads out of the sand and make some critical decisions regarding which route our society chooses to take!

Status Quo on this huge issue, will not be an option.

gus

Sep-06-2005, 12:21 PM

Last drinks everyone. This thread is getting a little too political & i can see it descending into some problems.

Gus

ehughes

Sep-06-2005, 12:26 PM

Last drinks everyone. This thread is getting a little too political & i can see it descending into some problems.

Gus
Amen Gus :agree

dragon300zx

Sep-06-2005, 12:32 PM

*the internet (typing) is not the best place for either one of us to concisely get our points of view, including all nuances across...

I agree with you on some areas...

..such as... when we point a finger at whatever Government is in the White House, two fingers always point back to ourselves, the individual. (although I am currently pointing four of my five fingers at this current crop of WhiteHouse clowns, leaving one finger pointing back at me)

This latest Katrina catastrophe, simply and clearly magnifies our countries #1 challenge,

“What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state and the Have’s v.s. Have Not’s
The welfare (or lack of) state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.” -end quote-

If we as a Nation choose to ignore the poor/uneducated/helpless, then what we have seen in New Orleans, is just a warm up on what to expect in the coming decades (you pick the city), if we as a society continue on the path we are on today!

We in USA are going to be forced to make some TOUGH choices:

(as a very rough example I have chosen- Brazil and Sweden)

We (USA) as a people, must decide whether we continue to move closer to Brazil mindset OR move closer to (say) the Swedish form of Government,

There will be a steep price ($) to pay, no matter which path we ultimately choose as a nation

Brazil (Virtually no central Gov’t = low or no tax on the wealthy= Zero safety net for its poor, which represents the majority of the countries population)

“Organized crime groups in Rio de Janeiro and other major Brazilian cities have become increasingly involved in politics in recent years. But now Brazilian gangs with known ties to Colombian militants and corrupt military officers in Paraguay and Argentina also are adopting a populist political rhetoric to justify their criminal activities. If the gangs take the next logical step -- to link politically with Brazil's Landless Movement -- within a couple of years, President Luiz Inacio "Lula" da Silva's government might be facing a security nightmare that could destabilize Brazil politically and undermine its economic growth.” –end quote-

As a US citizen living in a future society that chooses to govern more like Brazil, then yes, you will get to keep ALL of your money..but you will also be forced to pay an extremely high percentage of it out in Personal Security, such as lions roaming free on your property to guard one's residence-security guards to protect against kidnapping for ransom on your daily shopping/dining/school outings, etc, etc.

Or

Sweden (Large Government presence = much higher tax rate than we (USA) are used to paying = significant safety net for its poor)

‘hence a significantly more civil society in which one is not scared for their life, to go alone (with security and piece of mind) to shop at the local market, walk down a street to have luuch at a restaurant with your friends, or send your kids to school without fear of kidnapping for ransom, etc., etc.’

We (all) as a society, have to (will be forced) get our heads out of the sand and make some critical decisions regarding which route or society chooses to take!

Status Quo on this huge issue, will not be an option.
:agree