new gear from canon

[Andy]

so, now that the 5D, and 1D Mark IIN are officially announced, along with a new flash, coupla lenses, what are your thoughts?

who's going to buy the 5D? why?

who's going to buy the 1D Mark IIN? why?

what do you think of the new 24-105L IS f/4?i'


my thoughts: i'm diggin' the lens - and will probably give it a twirl on my 1Ds Mark II. it's a focal range that i use a lot. the f/4 + IS is a nice combination and tradeoff of size vs. function.

the 5D? for over a year, i've been asking for a ff camera in a 20d sized body, but now, i'm not so sure! before i jump in and buy one, i'll want to hold, touch, feel it. i'm quite used to the 1Ds Mark II by now. however, the 5D, at ~$3500 anticipated street price, looks to be a great deal for those that want to get into full-frame

anyhow, what're y'all thinking? :ear

[pathfinder]

The 24-105 F4 IS L revisits a zoom range that was popular in the 35mm world in the 80's. On a full-frame body it wil be the cat's meow. Wide to mild tele - great for candid portraits.

As to the 5D, I will not miss the weight of the 1series cameras, but I want to see how it compares tothe 20D as will a lot of people I suspect. I may consider selling my 1DMkll to help pay for a 5D if I decide that is the way to go.

[marlof]

I think Canon is creating a *very* sweet DSLR lineup this way. The different bodies are also priced in a way that they're not exactly eating each others market share. From the specs, the 5D looks like a great camera, and the 24-105L like a very nice walkaround lens for that full frame body. Although it's amazing that you can get a 12mp full frame body for this suggested retail price, it still is priced beyond my limits, so it'll not be for me. I understand that it doesn't have weather sealing, and that would be the one thing I would change if I could, since in my opinion, this should be mandatory for a camera aimed at a market where people have no choice but to use their gear no matter what weather. It wouldn't keep me from getting one though, if I belonged to the targeted audience.

[mercphoto]

I think its a bad time to be a Nikon shooter.

The 24-105/4, dunno myself. Its only a touch cheaper than the 24-70/2.8. Myself would probably go for the faster lens than the extra reach or the IS.

The 1D Mark II N, I got to shoot a bit of football recently with a 1D (which isn't a Mark II, but is still nicer than a 20D in many respects). Man, what a camera. I would love to be able to justify an N body in my future. However, I'm about to buy a 300mm/2.8 this week, so a new body will have to wait.

As per the 5D, looks like a sweet high-end portrait camera.

[Bodley]

I'm excited about the possibility of picking up an "Outdated" 1DmarkII as a backup to mine. LOL

Had hoped on one hand the 1DmarkII"n" would sport meaner specs but on the other hand I'm glad it doesn't. Considering the specs it sports I can save my money and live with mine without the "latest-greatest" bug eating at me.

[wholenewlight]

so, now that the 5D, and 1D Mark IIN are officially announced, along with a new flash, coupla lenses, what are your thoughts?

who's going to buy the 5D? why?

who's going to buy the 1D Mark IIN? why?

what do you think of the new 24-105L IS f/4?i'


my thoughts: i'm diggin' the lens - and will probably give it a twirl on my 1Ds Mark II. it's a focal range that i use a lot. the f/4 + IS is a nice combination and tradeoff of size vs. function.

the 5D? for over a year, i've been asking for a ff camera in a 20d sized body, but now, i'm not so sure! before i jump in and buy one, i'll want to hold, touch, feel it. i'm quite used to the 1Ds Mark II by now. however, the 5D, at ~$3500 anticipated street price, looks to be a great deal for those that want to get into full-frame

anyhow, what're y'all thinking? :earIf Nikon doesn't counter with something FF and competitive, I may be migrating toward the Canon camp. What do I like about the 5D?


Full Frame. Bigger IS better in my opinion. There has been the argument for decades - a camera manufacturer in conjunction with film companies comes out with a new format (read smaller like disc, aps). And the argument was always "technology has improved the quality" so smaller format will be fine. History says otherwise. Just as DSLR sensors have an advantage over the smaller sensor of digital P&S cameras, FF sensors will also lead the imaging quality war. IMO
I love wide angle lenses. I think the FF will give me a lens choice advantage here.
The camera size footprint is a real winner with the 5D
Canon continues to lead. I've used Nikon for years and I still love their quality and features but I'm a little weary of the Nikon catch-up game.
I can see me using a 5D, 24-105L, a fast prime (prob something like a 35 1.8), a fast short tele prime (85 1.8), a 105 2.8 macro, and a 70-200 USM IS. There it is - my perfect combination. Oh, and maybe a really wide lens like a 14mm.

Now if I can just come up with the $10K +/- :cry

[Seamus]

I just read the specs here: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0508/05082208canoneos1dmkiin.asp


That is a serious camera. The picture style pre-sets look to have sorted the soft jpeg images and, if they work as advertised, could cut out a lot of post processing.

The viewfinder info includes iso setting.

I am looking forward to reading the tests on this camera.

Shay.

[RickP66]

I am not too excited about the new lenses, but I WANT a 5D. Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to afford one for a year or so...

[Khaos]

I can see the 5D taking off. I want one bad.

However, the N seems, redundant. It's still 1.3 and while it offers dual cards and higher and faster captures, to me that's not enough to justify a cost higher than the full frame 5D.

Can someone else explain, outside of sports photography, why one would want the N instead of the 5D?

I will be curious about the new lens also. Interesting range and with a constant f\4 aperture and IS, this could be a big seller. I see it as possibly what the 28-135 wasn't, able to handle lower light situations with sharper pictures.

[Nikolai]

I'm still waiting for my very first 20d to arrive (tomorrow?), so these fancy new bodies are all far beyond my reach. However, I like the fact of canon's keeping the leading role - seems like I made a right choice:-) SO when the time comes to upgrade, I hope to already accumulate some decent glass to go with those (or even better future) bodies:-)

Cheers!:1drink

[colourbox]

Heck, I thought the announcement of the s80 was cool. It seems to fix the remaining weak points of the Powershot s-series, like the terrible movie mode. Otherwise I love my s60 and would think about getting an s80 when the price drops. Sure, my Rebel XT is a far superior camera, but it's the point-and-shoot that's always with me.

[mercphoto]

Can someone else explain, outside of sports photography, why one would want the N instead of the 5D?
Simply because the 5D is wholely inadequate for sports use. I have no desire for a 5D, but I really like the N.

[Khaos]

Simply because the 5D is wholely inadequate for sports use. I have no desire for a 5D, but I really like the N.
I feel a redundant echo redundantly echoing what I asked\answered.:D

[mercphoto]

I feel a redundant echo redundantly echoing what I asked\answered.:D

What other answer do you want? You pretty much already stated the answer yourself. The N is geared more to sports and action than anything else. The 5D is unsuitable for that use. I'm not sure why you feel Canon's line up has redundancy, or why there must be another answer to this question.

[NHBubba]

The press releases just remind me of how poor I feel!! :uhoh

The 5D, looks great, and I'd definitely love to have a FF digital, who wouldn't?! Unfortunately there is absoloutely no way I'll be able to swing that kind of expense anytime in the future. The camera is very obviously not aimed at someone like myself. Even the lack of a builtin (even if cheasy) flash makes it obvious it isn't the camera for the likes of me. .. How long until we see a FF 20D replacment?

The 24-105 lens is nice, but not really apealing. Any idea of what the price will be? Betcha I can't afford it anyhow. Truth be told I think I'd still rather have a EFS 17-85, especially if I'm staying in the APS-C camp.

And the 70-300 IS.. I must be loosing my mind, because I coulda swore there was a 75-300 version of this lens already. I'm still not interested.

Although the 5D raises the question, how long will 'pro-sumer' enthusiasts like myself be using APS-C. My associate, who's camera budget is roughly twice mine, is in a panic about the 5D. He was convinced his 20D was a 5+ year solution and was investing in EFS glass left and right. Sudenly he thinks within 2 years we'll be seeing FF cameras accessable to us mere mortals. I never would have thought that a month ago. My, how things change.. Suddenly he's curtailed all his lens purchasing and is thinking FF again.

I dunno man, I just dunno..

The new A610 looks pretty sweet. Flip out and twist screen, 5MP w/ 4x zoom. All the manual features one could need, lens filter adapters.. even an available under-water kit. Me-thinks I found my new recommendation for noobies. Heck, I want one as a play camera!

[OlgaJ]

I'm not interested in the 5D at this time. I may wait and see how it turns out. The 1DM2 N sounds interesting but not worth upgrading from a 1DM2 original.

The 24-105L though sounds very useful to me. It would make for a good walk-about for the 1DM2, perhaps as convenient as I find the 17-85 on the 20D. So I plan on trying that one out when it comes out.

Olga

[rutt]

I
Can someone else explain, outside of sports photography, why one would want the N instead of the 5D?


I often reach for my 1D Mark II instead of my 20D because I like the AF and exposure systems so much more. The 20D has this dead simple AF system. Focus is determined by the closest of the points that achieves focus. Often this is just totally wrong. So careful people, like Pathfinder, disable it and just use center focus or sometimes some other point. The 1 Series system is completely different. I can't even explain it exactly. But it has 45 AF points and there seems to be some kind of voting algorithm so that it's not just the closest point that wins. (I might be wrong, but that's how it seems.) The camera is very often right; I almost never get the stupid wrong AF point problems that I do with the 20D.

AND the camera has another great feature which I think is missing from the 20D (again I might be wrong about this.) It is possible to program the WB button so that pressing it defeats the fancy AF point selection and forces a preselected AF point (center is a good choice.) This button is very handy, it's right under the right thumb and duplicated so it's in the same place for both vertical and horizontal shutter buttons. So my normal mode with the 1D Mark II is to use the full blown 45 point AF system, but have my thumb on the WB button. I'm no longer even concious of switching back and forth.

The exposure system is also a lot smarter, but I know even fewer details. It does have a true spot meter option. Perhaps the 5D will have this. It seems to get the exposure right far more often than the 20D in difficult situations.

Of course, both of these features are especially important in action situations. There is just no time to be deliberate. But candids, nature, and street photography and to some degree portrait photography are all action sitiuations, really. So I only choose my 20D for special purposes; in particular for it's smaller denser sensor (good for telephoto instead of using a TC on the 1D mark II), lower cost (so I lend it to my son or take to hostile environments), lower weight, and that great 10-22 UWA lens.

So I guess I won't be buying a 5D. And the N doesn't really offer anything to make me want to trade in my 1D Mark II.

I'm sure there is a new 1 Series camera in the works which will combine the benefits of the 1D Mark II and 1Ds Mark II. Full frame, fast, higher res than anything you can buy today. Maybe a year away, I'd guess. I'll take that upgrade when it happens.

I'd love a camera the size of the 5D with more of the professional features. I might not even care whether it was FF. Does that seem likely?

[mercphoto]

The 5D, looks great, and I'd definitely love to have a FF digital, who wouldn't?!
I have no need or desire for FF.

Even the lack of a builtin (even if cheasy) flash makes it obvious it isn't the camera for the likes of me. .. How long until we see a FF 20D replacment?
Doubtful. For one, a large piece of silicon will always be more expensive than a smaller piece of silicon. Much more so.

And the 70-300 IS.. I must be loosing my mind, because I coulda swore there was a 75-300 version of this lens already.
Its an updated IS mechanism that includes a panning mode. Optics might be better as well.

Although the 5D raises the question, how long will 'pro-sumer' enthusiasts like myself be using APS-C.
My guess is "for quite some time".

[Khaos]

Thanks Rutt, great explanation.

[canon-5D]

I won't be upgrading but the specs look great and if you're a wedding/portrait photog, FF would be great!! It would be nice to see what my lenses actually 'see' without factoring in the crop factor but I think I can live with my well-used 1D for a few more years!!

[Michiel de Brieder]

anyhow, what're y'all thinking? :ear I'm still aching for that 1Ds MII :( maybe in a year or 2....

[NHBubba]

I have no need or desire for FF.Really? A larger, brighter viewfinder, easier manual focus, being able to use wide angle lenses to their fullest.. None of this apeals to you? Especially when you consider you can always crop a 12 MP image and have something in the ballpark of a 6 MP APS-C, both resolution and FOV wise. Seems like the best of both worlds to me.
Doubtful. For one, a large piece of silicon will always be more expensive than a smaller piece of silicon. Much more so.Sure, but it seems like the definition of 'more expensive' is changing. A year ago, before the 1DsMII, a ~12 MP FF camera cost something like $7-8k. Now something similar is being introduced for nearly half the cost! ... What will next year bring?

I dunno, maybe I'm just wrapped up in my co-worker's hysteria, but I am starting to think a reasonable FF camera may be available to us pleabs within the next few years.. far sooner than I would have thought just a month ago at any rate. It makes investment in EFS glass questionable again.

[wxwax]

I confess to being a bit relieved that I don't have "new product' envy.

Much.

Neither of the two new lenses does much for me. I see the appeal of the 24-105's size and range. But I'm so hooked on fast glass that f4 makes it easy to pass on.

The 1DmkIIn doesn't offer enough new features that I value, to mess with my mind.

The closest call is with the 5D. I need to hold it to see how much better the viewfinder is with the full frame. And it sure would be nice to get the full width of my wide lenses. I was playing with my 1980's vintage Nikon FM this weekend, and it was a delight to see the large viewfinder image and enjoy the easy manual focus. If the 5D matches that, I might feels a pang of envy. But right now, I'm handling it OK.

No fever right now, doc.

[mercphoto]

Really? A larger, brighter viewfinder, easier manual focus, being able to use wide angle lenses to their fullest.. None of this apeals to you?
I shoot mostly telephoto, so wide angle performance means nothing to me, and I seldom if ever manually focus. As per cropping the 12MP image down to 8 or 6 after-the-fact, the ability to see in the view finder exactly what I will have, rather than try to guess, is a plus.

Sure, but it seems like the definition of 'more expensive' is changing. A year ago, before the 1DsMII, a ~12 MP FF camera cost something like $7-8k. Now something similar is being introduced for nearly half the cost! ... What will next year bring?
I was talking purely in terms of the silicon for the sensor. And bigger will always be more expensive. Even today, after all the progress, large pieces of silicon are still very expensive. They always will be. The price of a transistor drops over time but that is only because the transistor is getting smaller. Any given area of silicon is still pricey.

"Full frame" is an arbitrary concept. I could use your very arguments against yourself and argue instead that we should have 2-1/4" sensors, ala medium format. Just think of the shallow depth of field, the selective focus, etc.

[jogle]

I'll be queueing up for one and heres why....

I current have a 10D and I also often cary a film eos with some interesting film in it (velvia, provia or some kind of grainy b&w) I shoot a whole range of stuff, mostly for my own interest. A lot of wide angle party stuff (where I set the camera to 1/15th f4 and bounce the flash off the roof on auto) A lot of nice scenic shots, hey I live in New Zealand, its hard to go anywhere without wanting to shoot some hills or skys. And I play with macros around the house.

I never saw enough reason to trade up to the 20D and replace my handgrip with one that had problems (now solved) It just didn't offer enough value because whenever I thought about a new body, my mind wandered onto thinking about glass. I often repeat to people that ask me about cameras, "most cameras are better then most photographers"

I also like the size of the 10D, a few workmates have 1series cameras and I drool whenever using them, but they aren't practical for me in terms of price or size. I like shooting with the handgrip but I also like taking it off and going for a tramp or up the skifield with one or two lenses.

I also find myself backing up alot when I shoot. I have a full range of glass (15-30, 28-135, 70-200 and some primes) but I always seem to need to get back further. I never tend to do this with the film body, and I often leave my 100mm macro on that when shooting events.

I also feel that replaceable focusing screens, spot metering and the interface improvements are helping the itchy credit card come out :)

so yeah, almost time to trade in my 10D for something thats not only an upgrade but a step up

[Andy]

the 5D? for over a year, i've been asking for a ff camera in a 20d sized body, but now, i'm not so sure!

well... i just pre-ordered it from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007Y791C/qid=1124758383/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl23/102-5680441-8481709?v=glance&s=electronics&n=507846), so i guess that's settled :lol3

i've also got a pre-order at another small shop i like a lot, tallyn's photographic (www.tallyns.com)

[jogle]

if you feel like preordering another one, I'll give you my address!

[luckyrwe]

What's real nice is that once you own the gear you can upgrade it towards new gear and it is not as costly. Canon lenses do not lose much if any at all, and the bodies are still good for some while.

[david_h]

I think its a bad time to be a Nikon shooter. You are right. I tried to use my Nikon gear today and it's all screwed up.

I look through any of my lenses and all I see is black, like I've left the lens cover on.

I was brave enough to take my D2H out of the bag and it exploded, now I have only one eye and one arm.

Unbelievable how this could happen? I'm so distraught. How could Canon do such a thing to me?

Seriously, the 5D does look to be a nice step forward. If I was starting in digital photography I would seriously consider one. While the proposed Nikon D200 does look to have a good specification, I do hope we get a 35mm sensor camera at some point. I'm avoiding DX lenses, just in case :D

[ian408]

I was talking purely in terms of the silicon for the sensor. And bigger will always be more expensive. Even today, after all the progress, large pieces of silicon are still very expensive. They always will be. The price of a transistor drops over time but that is only because the transistor is getting smaller. Any given area of silicon is still pricey.

"Full frame" is an arbitrary concept. I could use your very arguments against yourself and argue instead that we should have 2-1/4" sensors, ala medium format. Just think of the shallow depth of field, the selective focus, etc.

Bigger silicon means lower yields (usaully).

Regardless, the specs look great. But not good enough to buy (for me).

Ian

[lynnesite]

Congrats, Andy. And Nik, hey Nik what lens are you starting out with?

The next biggish chunk of change (hopefully from a stock sale) that comes my way will get allocated to the 1D2N. :lust

I'm a sports shooter. I need the mag factor, and the 70-200 2.8L IS and the 1.4 TC II is about all I can handhold. The big display for my aging eyes is very appealing. I shoot with the 20D now and want "more", I use partial metering center point about 95% of the time. I need more speed for extreme action, and shoot pretty much 100% RAW.

Will keep the 20D for a backup, I love the form factor. Full frame would be only appealing for my non-sports stuff, with the 24-70L I know I've got the optics for it.

[jogle]

Bigger silicon means lower yields (usaully).

Regardless, the specs look great. But not good enough to buy (for me).

Ian this is a great online demo about how chip size changes the yeild
http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/courses/02206/java/yielddemo.html

With bigger chips, not only do you fit less chips on a wafer, If the defects stay the same (uasually do) then the percent of good chips drops dramaticly.

you also waste more silicon around the edges. A chip thats twice the size costs alot more then twice as much to produce

edit. explained better then I can: http://cnx.rice.edu/content/m11372/latest/

[erich6]

I for one am excited about the FF making its way into the mainstream of DSLR's. I just bought a 17-40 f/4 L that's begging for a 35 mm equivalent sensor to get the wide angles.

With 12+ MP it definitely makes it a step up from a 6 MP Rebel.

The wider/brighter viewfinder is appealing to me also. I also like the way the 20D feels so if this camera is similar I'm going to go for one.... Not anytime soon though given the cost.

I recommend reading Michael Reichmann's first impressions at http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/5d-announce.shtml

Erich

[wholenewlight]

I recommend reading Michael Reichmann's first impressions at http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/5d-announce.shtml

Erich
I love Reichmann's quote:
"The advantages to the photographer were minimal, other than the one big benefit of getting affordable DSLRs. But, because full-frame cameras were either excessively expensive, or nonexistent in an individual maker's lens mount, the emperor's new clothes syndrome came into effect, and some photographers started to believe that there as something inherently advantageous to reduced frame."

[NHBubba]

Yes, to finish the quote:

"the emperor's new clothes syndrome came into effect, and some photographers started to believe that there as something inherently advantageous to reduced frame. Other than lower cost, there isn't much advantage, and consequently as chip yields improve and manufacturing technology advances we'll inevitably see the price differential for full-frame over reduced frame diminish. I'll leave it to your imagination what the implications of this might be for camera makers and photographers over the next few years."

My imagination leads me to consider that a FF sensor will be obtainable by a rank amateur like me. The 5D cuts the price differential in HALF! Whodathunkit? Not me, that's for sure..

Like I said, I'm having second thoughts about investing in EFS glass..

[mercphoto]

Yes, to finish the quote:

"the emperor's new clothes syndrome came into effect, and some photographers started to believe that there as something inherently advantageous to reduced frame. Other than lower cost, there isn't much advantage, and consequently as chip yields improve and manufacturing technology advances we'll inevitably see the price differential for full-frame over reduced frame diminish. I'll leave it to your imagination what the implications of this might be for camera makers and photographers over the next few years."

My imagination leads me to consider that a FF sensor will be obtainable by a rank amateur like me. The 5D cuts the price differential in HALF! Whodathunkit? Not me, that's for sure..

Like I said, I'm having second thoughts about investing in EFS glass..

People who write stuff about full-frame silicon becoming substantially cheaper over time have a fundamental misunderstanding of the semiconductor industry.

[NHBubba]

I was talking purely in terms of the silicon for the sensor. And bigger will always be more expensive. Even today, after all the progress, large pieces of silicon are still very expensive. They always will be. The price of a transistor drops over time but that is only because the transistor is getting smaller. Any given area of silicon is still pricey.I'm an Electrical/Computer Engineer working in the software field, not a Micro Electronic Engineer working in the IC manufacturing field. But I have friends that are, and have rubbed enough elbows w/ them to be of the understanding that there are a number of factors that go into IC manufacturing yeild, not just the size of the IC itself. True, for a given, constant manufacturing technique, the larger the IC, the lower the yeild. But don't for a second expect that IC manufacturing techniques will stand still. They certianly haven't over the last few decades. Yeilds for a given process have been improving all the time. The yeilds and cost effectiveness of larger ICs is greatly improved with changes like for example moving from 5" wafers to larger 12" wafers. With consumer level PC microprocessors moving to larger and larger die sizes over time as we see more System On Chip and milti-core processors ICs, I think improved yeilds on larger ICs will continue to get some serious attention from the microelectronic industry. And I think photo sensors will either directly contribute to this, or at the very least get a free ride out of it.

In short, yeah, larger ICs cost more today.. But tomorrow I expect them to be cheaper. My question is how long is it before we get a FF sized sensor for what we pay for a 1.6x sized sensor today?! The 5D leads one to think it may be sooner rather than later. (Now obviously the 1.6x sensors will be even cheaper when that happens. It seems evident that one day we may very well have a ~$1000 FF body.. but at that same time we'll also see ~$200 1.6x crop bodies.)
"Full frame" is an arbitrary concept. I could use your very arguments against yourself and argue instead that we should have 2-1/4" sensors, ala medium format. Just think of the shallow depth of field, the selective focus, etc.True. But just like you have less interest in wide angle photography, I (and I suspect many like me) have less interest in medium format photography. For many, 35mm level equipment is 'good enough'. To be compadible w/ the decades of 35mm film lenses and equipment we've collected and used over the years is all many of us ask (at least today!)...

[NHBubba]

People who write stuff about full-frame silicon becoming substantially cheaper over time have a fundamental misunderstanding of the semiconductor industry.Well then educate us! I see you're from Austin. Are you involved in IC manufacturing? Do you know details of the process Canon uses for their CMOS sensors? What, aside from the large physical size of the ICs, leads you to maintain that they'll always be quite expensive?

[mercphoto]

Well then educate us! I see you're from Austin. Are you involved in IC manufacturing? Do you know details of the process Canon uses for their CMOS sensors? What, aside from the large physical size of the ICs, leads you to maintain that they'll always be quite expensive?

As per system-on-a-chip goes, the biggest reason why that is making system prices lower is not because the cost of a large piece of silicon is dropping fast. Its because if you have multiple pieces of silicon, you also have multiple packages, and the package cost on silicon can be rather expensive, especially if its not plastic. Then you have the assembly cost of putting multiple packages on a board. It also has a power budget impact. Separate chips means signals leaving one chip and going to another. That means I/O drivers, and those eat power. So, separate chips means more batteries or less battery life. One chip means smaller battery or more battery life. Etc. So even if you spend more for the silicon when it is one giant chunk, which you do, your overall system cost is lower.

Larger die sizes help reduce cost because after you cut up that circular hunk into rectangular chips you have less throw-away waste.

I do not know the details of Canon's CMOS process, other than CMOS is gernally the cheap process technology out there. I'm also not involved with manufacturing, I'm a verification engineer, which means I work to make sure a part is designed correctly before we ever attempt to make the first chip.

In a nutshell, the price of a transistor has dropped rapidly over time not because the price per square inch of silicon has dropped rapidly. Its because the transistor is getting rapidly smaller itself, cramming more into each square inch. This has an impact on how fast, and how far the price of a full frame sensor can drop. The sensor, by definition, isn't getting smaller. So the only way it gets cheaper is by silicon itself getting cheaper by the square inch. And that happens slowly over time. This is why very big and new microprocessors are still very expensive animals. And when the price does drop, it is usually because the manufacturer has found a way to make it smaller, doing what is known as a "shrink".

Am I glad that Canon has two full-frame cameras, one of which is "reasonably" priced? Absolutely, because for some people it makes a lot of sense. Just not for me.

[Andy]

canon 5d hands-on preview here (http://www.ifa-show.com/2005/canon_review/119_canon_eos_5d.html)

[NHBubba]

As per system-on-a-chip goes, the biggest reason why that is making system prices lower is not because the cost of a large piece of silicon is dropping fast. Its because if you have multiple pieces of silicon, ... One chip means smaller battery or more battery life. Etc. So even if you spend more for the silicon when it is one giant chunk, which you do, your overall system cost is lower.All true, but then that wasn't my point. My point that was because of the growing demand for larger SOC and multi-core processor ICs, attention will be directed at making larger ICs cheaper. My guess would be by increasing the yield for a given manufacturing process. I see no reason why many of the tricks the micro and SOC guys learn to increase yeild can't be applied to image sensors as well.

[erich6]

My understanding of the semiconductor industry and foundry processes is limited but I think the industry got a big boost from telecom in the form of advanced chips for cell phones. The digital camera revolution has helped as well. I think processes are continually improved. The laser and optics technology used to etch the circuits in the silicon keeps improving with finer and finer resolution. THat means that more advanced circuitry can be packaged in smaller devices.

THe concept of system-on-a-chip does save a lot from an overall product. I was actually surprised to see how long this format has lasted and that so many lenses have started to be produced to support it. The smaller chips actually push the optical technology even further...I thought optics were reaching their technological limit more so than silicon so I expected the big camera makers to take advantage of their investments in glass and capitalize on the rolling silicon wave.

Anyway, one thing is for sure...it's nice to have the choices and with variety comes competition (and hopefully cheaper prices!).

Erich

[erich6]

By the way...seems Canon just went all out on Monday. There were a total of 24 new products announced. Quite amazing.

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=NewsDtlAct#103z10

[ian408]

This is why very big and new microprocessors are still very expensive animals. And when the price does drop, it is usually because the manufacturer has found a way to make it smaller, doing what is known as a "shrink".

It's not just the shrink. Both process technology and the understanding of
the processor also contribute to higher yield.

But the fact remains that a large part does not yield as well as a
smaller part. The definition for size includes both area and transistor
count.

A shrink can have a negative effect on yield too (and in subtle ways).

[colourbox]

I take back what I wrote earlier in the thread about the s80. It appears they removed the RAW mode. I think they traded it off for the enhanced movie mode. $549 and they removed RAW, wtf? It was one of the best features of that line. Guess my s60 will be the point-and-shoot at my side for a few more years.

[Andy]

well... i just pre-ordered it from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007Y791C/qid=1124758383/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl23/102-5680441-8481709?v=glance&s=electronics&n=507846), so i guess that's settled :lol3

i've also got a pre-order at another small shop i like a lot, tallyn's photographic (www.tallyns.com)

cancelled with amazon, scott tallyn told me he's gonna have some of their first shipment- he's usually right about these things :deal

[Andy]

linky (http://www.pixource.com/en/EF24-105L/index.html)

[Andy]

luminous-landscape linky (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/5d-field.shtml)

enjoy.

[wholenewlight]

luminous-landscape linky (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/5d-field.shtml)
enjoy.
What a great preliminary review. While I'm shooting with a Nikon D70s, I think this is a pretty exciting camera.

And a very articulate view of full-frame vs. APS sensor size.

Thanks for posting the link.

[JohnR]

That link you gave Andy...Luminous landscape.com, says this:
"This is a big size improvement over previous Canon screens, and is identical to the screen that Canon has put on the equally new 1Ds MK IIn."

Uh..1Ds? Didn't know they made a 1Ds Mk IIn! :rofl

I know..silly mistake.

The one thing I didn't like about the 300D when I had it was the ergonomics of the camera. Just didn't like it.

[Andy]

The one thing I didn't like about the 300D when I had it was the ergonomics of the camera. Just didn't like it.

the ergos on the 20D, 1Ds Mark II, 5D, and 1D Mark IIN are all really nice imo. much improved over the ergos on the 300d - i agree with you there btw.

[Michael_Hansen]

I would love to have a 5D....but decided to wait, make sure they get all the bugs worked out . In the mean time I just purchased a new 70-200 f/2.8 "L" IS and found a gently used 20D for $950 :D the previous owner of the 20D is planning on upgrading to the 5D next month. The 20D should arrive tomorrow!
I guess I'll keep the 300D for sentimental reasons...we have been to a lot of places together :thumb