Challenge 14 Voting Thread

[Shay Stephens]

The glorious moment anticipated by many has finally arrived. Put down the cameras for a moment and prepare your eyes for a visual feast. Once you have carefully pondered each photo. It is then up to you to vote for your favorite.

damonff, daughter and mother
http://nomadphotography.smugmug.com/photos/4814862-L.jpg

ginger, child
http://gingersnap.smugmug.com/photos/4837060-L.jpg

shakey, any step will do
http://shakey.smugmug.com/photos/5080777-M.jpg

dkapp, reflection in the metro
http://dkapp.smugmug.com/photos/4970295-M.jpg

gypsy an intent artist
http://gypsy77360.smugmug.com/photos/4891678-M.jpg

gubbs, flowers in rush hour
http://gubbs.smugmug.com/photos/5086344-L.jpg

sandy, engrossed
http://sandra.smugmug.com/photos/5043772-L.jpg

seemoon, bird
http://see-moon.smugmug.com/photos/5066439-M.jpg

snapapple, manicure
http://snapapple.smugmug.com/photos/5015929-M.jpg

davidto, friends
http://davidrosenthal.smugmug.com/photos/5047201-M.jpg

[DoctorIt]

voting buttons missing... are they on delay (like last week)? did we figure that out?

[Shay Stephens]

voting buttons missing... are they on delay (like last week)? did we figure that out?
Sorry, no time to answer questions. My work here is done. I am ready for beam out Scotty!
...
...
Now would be a good time!!!

Nut's it must be down again. While I wait for them to get me out of here, I will answer your question:

No, there is no delay, what are you talking about? The poll is right there at the top. Voting buttons missing?!?! I am so sure! :wink

[DavidTO]

The glorious moment anticipated by many has finally arrived. Put down the cameras for a moment and prepare your eyes for a visual feast. Once you have carefully pondered each photo. It is then up to you to vote for your favorite.



Well, my favorite is mine...

But that doesn't mean that I think it's the best...

So I voted for the one I thought best.

;)

[gus]

So some of us didnt make the cut ?????????????

http://humongous.smugmug.com/photos/4868512-M.jpg

[gus]

100 people have looked at this thread since i posted my query...you going to tell me no-one has an answer to whats going on ?


:ear :ear :ear :ear :ear :ear :ear

Hands up whom else had their photo dropped ?

[lynnma]

100 people have looked at this thread since i posted my query...you going to tell me no-one has an answer to whats going on ?


:ear :ear :ear :ear :ear :ear :ear

Hands up whom else had their photo dropped ?I'm not sure what you mean humy... only ten can be chosen..:dunno

[gus]

I'm not sure what you mean humy... only ten can be chosen..:dunnoIm stuffed if i was aware of that ?? My fault if it is written somewhere.

Thanks for being the one to answer me though lynn :thumb Must have been an Act5: Amendment 13 to the rules of the comp....my copy is probably still on the water.

Personally i liked it better the way it was when fish was doing it....one shot...one post...ALL in.... not just the 10 best photographers. Talk about turning our back on new people !!!

I do not tolerate separatism at all ....it corrupts.

[AltPro]

Im stuffed if i was aware of that ?? My fault if it is written somewhere.
Thanks for being the one to answer me though lynn :thumb Must have been an Act5: Amendment 13 to the rules of the comp....my copy is probably still on the water.
Personally i liked it better the way it was when fish was doing it....one shot...one post...ALL in.... not just the 10 best photographers. Talk about turning our back on new people !!!
I do not tolerate separatism at all ....it corrupts.
Dan,
While I can totally understand where you are coming from in your frustration, I really think that 10 "Finalists" are still about 5 too many. Perhaps what might be considered would be to compile a list of all of the images for the assignment and then have two votes? The first to determine who the 5 finalists will be, the second to determine the overall winner. (Yet the problem with that approach again makes for more work for the moderator, and takes even more power of decision away from the "moderator/judge," whom I am suppossed to give credit for having more "knowledge and experience in these areas, than I.)
Please note, I did not enter this past weeks assignment. Somewhere along the line during the "Pathways" assignment, I determined for myself, that I did not want to just post an entry for the sake of posting an entry, and so, when I was not really happy with any of my work for this assignment, I opted out. Maybe I'm a snob? I hope not, but if I am thought to be, am I really if all I want is to feel that when one of my photos is listed as a finalist, it is truly worthy of that placement? "The Critical Eye?"

Dan, you do beautiful work-- (as do many others involved with this forum.) I often see accolades to attest that listed on this site. Beginners and pros alike receive input and constructive criticism here... In just the few short months I have been here, I can see how far some have come... That being said however, doing great work does not always mean that the work one submits is the best of the whole, or worthy of being the absolute favorite of the group, at any particular time. There are no guarantees... Peer Perspective and the Critical Eye can at times seem fickle. This should never become a popularity contest. People should not be chosen simply because they entered, or because they haven't won before... They should be chosen based on the merits of that 1 individual photo, as if it were the only photo they ever submitted.

Verbalizing these thoughts makes my belief that 10 finalists is too many even more staunch. There has to be a cut off somewhere... Sad is the day when it is "your" photo, or mine...
Please Forgive my diatribe.
I remain,
too often the one with foot in mouth,
ginette

[Andy]

Im stuffed if i was aware of that ?? My fault if it is written somewhere.

Thanks for being the one to answer me though lynn :thumb Must have been an Act5: Amendment 13 to the rules of the comp....my copy is probably still on the water.

Personally i liked it better the way it was when fish was doing it....one shot...one post...ALL in.... not just the 10 best photographers. Talk about turning our back on new people !!!

I do not tolerate separatism at all ....it corrupts.


let me restate the rules

up till now, you could enter three and i pick ten finalists. then you guys vote for the one winner. i don't see how this is turning our backs on new people? in fact, i took alot of time after the last challenge and gave critique for every single shot that was entered.

[Andy]

Dan,
While I can totally understand where you are coming from in your frustration, I really think that 10 "Finalists" are still about 5 too many. Perhaps what might be considered would be to compile a list of all of the images for the assignment and then have two votes? The first to determine who the 5 finalists will be, the second to determine the overall winner. (Yet the problem with that approach again makes for more work for the moderator, and takes even more power of decision away from the "moderator/judge," whom I am suppossed to give credit for having more "knowledge and experience in these areas, than I.)
Please note, I did not enter this past weeks assignment. Somewhere along the line during the "Pathways" assignment, I determined for myself, that I did not want to just post an entry for the sake of posting an entry, and so, when I was not really happy with any of my work for this assignment, I opted out. Maybe I'm a snob? I hope not, but if I am thought to be, am I really if all I want is to feel that when one of my photos is listed as a finalist, it is truly worthy of that placement? "The Critical Eye?"

Dan, you do beautiful work-- (as do many others involved with this forum.) I often see accolades to attest that listed on this site. Beginners and pros alike receive input and constructive criticism here... In just the few short months I have been here, I can see how far some have come... That being said however, doing great work does not always mean that the work one submits is the best of the whole, or worthy of being the absolute favorite of the group, at any particular time. There are no guarantees... Peer Perspective and the Critical Eye can at times seem fickle. This should never become a popularity contest. People should not be chosen simply because they entered, or because they haven't won before... They should be chosen based on the merits of that 1 individual photo, as if it were the only photo they ever submitted.

Verbalizing these thoughts makes my belief that 10 finalists is too many even more staunch. There has to be a cut off somewhere... Sad is the day when it is "your" photo, or mine...
Please Forgive my diatribe.
I remain,
too often the one with foot in mouth,
ginette


i will be keeping it between 5 and 10 finalists. what will change, is that the number of entries is going to go from three to one, per person.

i'm a firm believer in that the artist has to be super self-critical, so you've got to choose which of your possibles you want to be the one single entry into the challenge.

of course, the other "shots" forums and the photoshop shenanigans forum are availalbe for critique, advice etc during the challenge period :wink

[Andy]

100 people have looked at this thread since i posted my query...you going to tell me no-one has an answer to whats going on ?


:ear :ear :ear :ear :ear :ear :ear

Hands up whom else had their photo dropped ?

'gus, i thought in your post here you were kidding ... aw

[Andy]

I do not tolerate separatism at all ....it corrupts.

i can assure you, there is no separatism here, and that i spend tons of time evaluating each and every entry in the challenges.

and after the evaluations, everyone who wasn't chosen, they get a critique from me. and after the voting, the finalists all get a post from me as to why they were chosen. here's the comment i made to your finalist in the last challenge (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=1505)

[ginger_55]

I am new, I am honored to be in the ten, this time.

Are you a philosophy major?

ginger

[DoctorIt]

Are you a philosophy major?
Nope. engineer. :rofl

Oh wait... were you asking Andy? Ginette? Gus? My vote between those three would definitely be on Ginette. As usual, I'd send her in to negotiate with the nutjob wielding a bomb.

[snapapple]

I am honored to be among the 10 finalists. I noticed my picture did not receive any votes, but that's OK. I don't think it's the best either. Actually I liked my "Sippin'" picture better. I think it had more personality. I'm anxious to see Andy's comments on why he liked "manicure" better. I really liked the comments from Andy on all the shots. This demonstrates to me how an expert opinion is better than voting from the members on picking the finalists. There is a lot there from which we can all learn.
One comment on the voting - I'm not sure we should be able to see how the voting is going during the poll. I think it would be better to just show the totals at the end. I think there is a subtle influence on the voter when they see which shot is getting the early votes. It takes away from the independent choice. Does anyone else get this feeling?

[damonff]

I'm not sure we should be able to see how the voting is going during the poll. I think it would be better to just show the totals at the end. I think there is a subtle influence on the voter when they see which shot is getting the early votes. It takes away from the independent choice. Does anyone else get this feeling?[/QUOTE]
Well, we can't see the results until after we vote, so it already is the way you want it.

[Andy]

Well, we can't see the results until after we vote, so it already is the way you want it.

yeh, that's the way i thought it was :scratch

thanks for confirming, damon ;-)

[dkapp]

You can see the totals if you have already voted, or have not logged in.

This is a feature of the software. It keeps unregistered users from voting and possibly messing w/ the results.

Dave

[GREAPER]

actually you can click on the button in the lower right of the poll and see the votes even if you havn't voted and are logged in.

You have to control yourself and not look before you vote. Or run the risk of being influenced.

I have not voted and am logged in and I just looked.

[snapapple]

actually you can click on the button in the lower right of the poll and see the votes even if you havn't voted and are logged in.

You have to control yourself and not look before you vote. Or run the risk of being influenced.

I have not voted and am logged in and I just looked.

Ok, I'm not crazy!! When ever I have looked at the poll I was not logged in at first. I looked to see if the poll was up yet, then I logged in and placed my vote. So, I always saw the results (so far) before I voted. I didn't know there was another way. I guess I can log in first next time and "control myself" as you say.

[AltPro]

i will be keeping it between 5 and 10 finalists. what will change, is that the number of entries is going to go from three to one, per person.
i'm a firm believer in that the artist has to be super self-critical, so you've got to choose which of your possibles you want to be the one single entry into the challenge.
of course, the other "shots" forums and the photoshop shenanigans forum are availalbe for critique, advice etc during the challenge period :wink
Andy:

Overall I agree with what you are saying here, and from where I sit, you are doing a darn good job. What you've agreed to take on requires a great deal of personal time and effort... Not too mention a few tantrums from us, along the way... I don't believe that any of us is paying you to do this task? (Well at least you're not on my payroll...)

By compeling us to limit our entries, you are pushing our hand, actually forcing us to self-judge and determine what it is about our photograph that makes it of "visual value." It can be tough... at times, almost like choosing a favorite among our children. But you are forcing us to take steps on our own, urging us to grow... I, for one, commend your efforts, applaud and Thank You.
ginette

[AltPro]

yeh, that's the way i thought it was :scratch

thanks for confirming, damon ;-)
Andy:

I think it may depend on what browser you're using... Vote here is bold, but still were I to want to peek, I could click on the button to the right, I did it this last time voting, to be sure. I don't remember it having been this way until 2 assignments ago...
ginette

[snapapple]

Andy:

Overall I agree with what you are saying here, and from where I sit, you are doing a darn good job. What you've agreed to take on requires a great deal of personal time and effort... Not too mention a few tantrums from us, along the way... I don't believe that any of us is paying you to do this task? (Well at least you're not on my payroll...)

By compeling us to limit our entries, you are pushing our hand, actually forcing us to self-judge and determine what it is about our photograph that makes it of "visual value." It can be tough... at times, almost like choosing a favorite among our children. But you are forcing us to take steps on our own, urging us to grow... I, for one, commend your efforts, applaud and Thank You.
ginette

I have to agree, ginette. I learned a lot from Andy's comments on all the pics, but there were a LOT of them in this challenge. As we get more members on the site, this job could get overwhelming for Andy. The limit of ONE SHOT is a good idea. :clap :clap

[wxwax]

Hands up whom else had their photo dropped ?


:wave I didn't make it. 's OK, always next time. There's always been a cutdown, from day one. Otherwise, far too many for a poll.

[Andy]

Andy:

I think it may depend on what browser you're using... Vote here is bold, but still were I to want to peek, I could click on the button to the right, I did it this last time voting, to be sure. I don't remember it having been this way until 2 assignments ago...
ginette

i'll see about ways to limit the ability to see the voting results before you vote.

thanks for the clarification, guys!

[lynnma]

Thanks for all the time and energy put into the asssignment Andy, it's making this all great fun.. I just hope it does'nt get too big to handle.:thumb :clap
Lynn

[ginger_55]

I know that everyone likes the limit of submitting just one picture for the challenge. I don't. I just have been wanting to say that. I don't like it at all.
And I don't know how one learns to "self judge" in that way. What I mean is I don't think there is one good picture on a theme that I do. Subjectively I might like one better than another, but to know what another person is going to like subjectively, this is "art" after all, I think I am going to be playing a guessing game. I liked the child at the door from day one, but to tell the truth, I probably would have pulled it, not as a bad picture, or a lesser picture, just because I had been there, done that and looked at that picture a bit long at that point. I am glad I didn't pull that picture. I am just so proud to once, even if just once, have been "judged" subjectively to be a "real" photographer along with some people I consider great photographers, it gives me a lot of warm fuzzies.
Now the point of this is, Andy, could you do a tutorial, post, or something on "self judging", something to give me a clue more of what you mean in a subjective area.

ginger

[AltPro]

Andy?
May we begin shooting on the new assignment, "movement?"
Spent a couple of hours last night, and came up with some ideas, so ready to run... Want to be playing fair.
Later,
ginette

[Andy]

I know that everyone likes the limit of submitting just one picture for the challenge. I don't. I just have been wanting to say that. I don't like it at all.
And I don't know how one learns to "self judge" in that way. What I mean is I don't think there is one good picture on a theme that I do. Subjectively I might like one better than another, but to know what another person is going to like subjectively, this is "art" after all, I think I am going to be playing a guessing game. I liked the child at the door from day one, but to tell the truth, I probably would have pulled it, not as a bad picture, or a lesser picture, just because I had been there, done that and looked at that picture a bit long at that point. I am glad I didn't pull that picture. I am just so proud to once, even if just once, have been "judged" subjectively to be a "real" photographer along with some people I consider great photographers, it gives me a lot of warm fuzzies.
Now the point of this is, Andy, could you do a tutorial, post, or something on "self judging", something to give me a clue more of what you mean in a subjective area.

ginger

heya ginger ...

you'll be able to solicit input from the other forums here... so not to worry. i just think that in the end, *you* must decide which of your three (or now even more than three heheheh) shots should be the *one* that you put in the challenge.

hmm... a tutorial on being self critical --- okay i'll give it a go when i announce the next challenge, okay?

[Andy]

Andy?
May we begin shooting on the new assignment, "movement?"
Spent a couple of hours last night, and came up with some ideas, so ready to run... Want to be playing fair.
Later,
ginette

hey ginette - the new challenge will always start on a thursday night. so, go ahead and practice but please, no entries until then ;)

[AltPro]

... I liked the child at the door from day one, but to tell the truth, I probably would have pulled it, not as a bad picture, or a lesser picture, just because I had been there, done that and looked at that picture a bit long at that point. I am glad I didn't pull that picture. I am just so proud to once, even if just once, have been "judged" subjectively to be a "real" photographer along with some people I consider great photographers, it gives me a lot of warm fuzzies...
ginger
Ginger,
I didn't just like your "child at the door," ( I saw it more as "hope exposed.")
I really loved it. I had a terrible time making a decision between what were my two favorites, in the last run.

You captured a clip of society in that shot, that made me feel somehow uncomfortable, and then want to reach out and hug the child close. It really is a wonderful photo, and shows your potential...

It's hard to look at your own work and say I really could have done this better... I should have seen more, changed my position, been more forgiving in the shot, less forgiving, cropped out more, or less... Sometimes an opportunity arrises and we just shoot... But don't stop there, keep shooting... Shoot until the scene has really closed. Sometimes the best shots come in the moments just before, or after, the climax occurs. Then again, sometimes nothing works, and you just pick up the camera, and keep at it.

You're doing some really nice work... Pulling yourself along nicely, I think. Just keep at it... Like we do with life, one breath at a time.

ginette

[AltPro]

hey ginette - the new challenge will always start on a thursday night. so, go ahead and practice but please, no entries until then ;) sigh....
ok...
I guess that means we can't be shooting for the assignment, either?:(:

[gus]

:wave I didn't make it. 's OK, always next time. There's always been a cutdown, from day one. Otherwise, far too many for a poll.
Waxy ...you have missed my point entirely. I am talking about several peoples photos not being allowed to be judged by their peers in a group. No one really knows any ones work here except maybe andys & PF's i recon i could pick... hell for all i know some may be getting a pro to take their shot & claiming it.

I was in a much much larger photo group where a lot were pros & everyone was allowed all to throw up their shots. I actually feel somewhat saddened to realise that i am in a group that would do this. Have you ever seen a newbie having a go in YM ?...what a place to open a door of 'eh ?...but i tell you what mate, you wont see someone there tell them they are not up to a standard.

Anyway i know i am in a minority here with this & i will deal with it...if i had known about this in the start (ie sat & read the rules) i would never have entered the last comp but would have much rathered go & talk to those that didnt make the cut. I feel like apologizing to them for my ignorance.

A dummy spit in a forum...looks like it to me ..but sometimes you have to say what is on your mind.

see you on the flip side mate.

[Andy]

Waxy ...you have missed my point entirely. I am talking about several peoples photos not being allowed to be judged by their peers in a group. No one really knows any ones work here except maybe andys & PF's i recon i could pick... hell for all i know some may be getting a pro to take their shot & claiming it.

I was in a much much larger photo group where a lot were pros & everyone was allowed all to throw up their shots. I actually feel somewhat saddened to realise that i am in a group that would do this. Have you ever seen a newbie having a go in YM ?...what a place to open a door of 'eh ?...but i tell you what mate, you wont see someone there tell them they are not up to a standard.

Anyway i know i am in a minority here with this & i will deal with it...if i had known about this in the start (ie sat & read the rules) i would never have entered the last comp but would have much rathered go & talk to those that didnt make the cut. I feel like apologizing to them for my ignorance.

A dummy spit in a forum...looks like it to me ..but sometimes you have to say what is on your mind.

see you on the flip side mate.

do you really think that for the honor of winning a fortnightly contest with a $25 value prize, someone would go to the trouble of getting a pro to take their shot for them?

the real purpose of the dgrin challenge is to grow and learn as a photographer. you get real-time critique and feedback, and every two weeks you get to compete against others.

i'll say it again, nobody gets alienated, humungus. i take the time to critique and comment on every single entry.

i'm really sorry you feel so strongly against the challenge format. i hope you will continue to contribute, we want you to stay. btw, you *did* notice that you were a finalist in the last challenge, and that after the end i gave comments and critique to all the finalists, too?

[wxwax]

[font=Georgia][size=3][color=Pink]Ginger,
I didn't just like your "child at the door," ( I saw it more as "hope exposed.")
I really loved it.


Suprised myself, actually: when I saw it in the galleries of the finalists, I immediately gravitated towards it. A wonderful shot. :nod

[wxwax]

:scratch Humungus, I think you're right, I don't understand the issue. Is it that only three (soon to be one) are permitted for submission? Or is it that there's a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on? :scratch He'p me.

[Wolf]

Please excuse me if I'm butting in where I don't belong. From what I feel I am understanding is that at least part of the issue that Humungous is having is that everyone votes on the winner, but not on the finalists. It sounds like what he is communicating is that everyones entries should be polled in the same manner as the winner. I apologize if I am overstepping here, but, thats kind of my understanding of this situation. So in essence, all the entries are available to be voted on by all members to find the winner.

[Andy]

Please excuse me if I'm butting in where I don't belong. From what I feel I am understanding is that at least part of the issue that Humungous is having is that everyone votes on the winner, but not on the finalists. It sounds like what he is communicating is that everyones entries should be polled in the same manner as the winner. I apologize if I am overstepping here, but, thats kind of my understanding of this situation. So in essence, all the entries are available to be voted on by all members to find the winner.

hi wolf, please .. butt in all you like! that's what makes the forum so great :wink

it's not practical to vote for the finalists, and then vote on the finalists.... it gets very confusing.

as benevolent host of the dgrin challenges, i am switzerland and sweden rolled into one ..... uber-neutral ...

we're going to keep it this way for a while. i hope humungus keeps participating, afterall, he's got .500 average in reaching the finalists thus far :thumb and i really like his style, posts, and photography...

[AltPro]

:scratch Humungus, I think you're right, I don't understand the issue. Is it that only three (soon to be one) are permitted for submission? Or is it that there's a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on? :scratch He'p me.
Sid,

Dan is out of sorts because of "a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on." I see a different side to that, in that if every entry is to be voted upon, and none culled at all, then at some point in the very near future, there will be too many entrants and the very real possibility that none will receive a "majority" vote and that would render the whole concept of the challenge a moot issue.

It's a sorry state of affairs that a simple "challenge" can cause such a brouhaha, when really (at least I thought) this was supposed to be a fun place to show our work among our peers, all within a learning forum.

ginette

[cmr164]

Sid,

Dan is out of sorts because of "a cull of the submissions and only some are voted on." I see a different side to that, in that if every entry is to be voted upon, and none culled at all, then at some point in the very near future, there will be too many entrants and the very real possibility that none will receive a "majority" vote and that would render the whole concept of the challenge a moot issue.

It's a sorry state of affairs that a simple "challenge" can cause such a brouhaha, when really (at least I thought) this was supposed to be a fun place to show our work among our peers, all within a learning forum.

ginette
How about dropping the submissions per person to 1 and then letting us all vote on all entries. I know that I have had a little bit of negative feeling about folks submitting multiples and I was pleased to see that is being dealt with. I also agree somewhat with humungus in that the first time that I realized that the shots were being culled, I was disappointed. To tell you the truth, I would have culled a different set and I recognise that the culling process is inherently personal. Probably there are any number of us who do not feel the same thrill to submit as we did at the start.

I wouldn't have even raised the issue but with it here already, I feel compelled to add my 2 cents.

[gus]

Please excuse me if I'm butting in where I don't belong. From what I feel I am understanding is that at least part of the issue that Humungous is having is that everyone votes on the winner, but not on the finalists. It sounds like what he is communicating is that everyones entries should be polled in the same manner as the winner. I apologize if I am overstepping here, but, thats kind of my understanding of this situation. So in essence, all the entries are available to be voted on by all members to find the winner.:thumb Thankyou !

That is how i have seen it in other forums & i had assumed... incorrectly that that is how we were doing it. The one particular forum i mentioned ....there was an area that every one simply posted their thumbnails into & anyone could view at any time & vote in order. No finalists...just 1st throught to maybe 30th sometimes. The list never seemed to overflow with too many entries..it was sort of self leveling, some stayed ....others left.

I am very passionate about keeping this a "totally open" forum. No-one is excluded from having a go. I also realise that andy isnt getting $200/hour for his time & his time explaing other stuff is invaluable.

I'll pull my head in at this point as i had never intended to heat debate ..just wanted a fair go for all.

[wxwax]

Cool, got it, at last. Thanks. I guess there are different philosophies. I kinda figured there was a physical limit to the number of options we can have in a poll. Not sure the software can allow us to have a vote on every entry.

As for the cull, I see what you mean. When Fish said we were going to vote on a cut-down selection, my only issue was the impartiality of whoever was doing the cutting down. Andy's seen to that by not submitting photos. No way around the subjectivity of it, of course. Unless a panel votes on the cutdown, but that would be cumbersome, I reckon.

Still and all, as long as Andy's willing to put the work in, I'm all for going along with the rules. It's a lot of work for the lad... and occasionally, a bit of a headache!

[dkapp]

I have pretty strong feelings when I read through all these posts challenging the contest & its rules. I've actually came back to my response several times over the day, never knowing when too hit submit, or edit more out...this is the short version.

This is the first contest that I have ever entered. I've never even submitted a photo to any POTD sites. I felt comfortable enough with this forum and the people that contribute to submit my entry. This is a VERY friendly and open forum.

As far as how Andy is running the contest, I can't say how much I appreciate his hard work. This is truly a thankless position. I feel that he is moving it in the right direction with limiting the number of entries per person to one, and bringing the finalists down to 5 from 10. This will streamline the contest thread, save hours of his time and make the challenge easier to follow for everyone. This will help everyone become a better photographer and submit their best work. Isn't this what we are here for in the first place?

Lets try to show Andy some appreciation vs. grill him over this.

Andy, if you need any help, just let me know what I can do.

Dave

[gubbs]

I have pretty strong feelings when I read through all these posts challenging the contest & its rules. I've actually came back to my response several times over the day, never knowing when too hit submit, or edit more out...this is the short version.

This is the first contest that I have ever entered. I've never even submitted a photo to any POTD sites. I felt comfortable enough with this forum and the people that contribute to submit my entry. This is a VERY friendly and open forum.

As far as how Andy is running the contest, I can't say how much I appreciate his hard work. This is truly a thankless position. I feel that he is moving it in the right direction with limiting the number of entries per person to one, and bringing the finalists down to 5 from 10. This will streamline the contest thread, save hours of his time and make the challenge easier to follow for everyone. This will help everyone become a better photographer and submit their best work. Isn't this what we are here for in the first place?

Lets try to show Andy some appreciation vs. grill him over this.

Andy, if you need any help, just let me know what I can do.

Dave
I'll second that :thumb

[rutt]

"In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue -- that is why academic politics are so bitter."

Wallace S. Sayre, quoted in Charles Issawi, "Issawi's Laws of Social Motion" (1973)

My self restraint just gave way and I have to add my two cents.

The challenge in its current format is Andy's game and he has poured his valuable energy and time into it. Andy is a professional photographer and has a wonderful eye. He charges and (presumably) gets good money to teach photography; people travel to NYC to take his workshops. The feedback he offers in this forum is very valuable. It's a wonderful gift that he has undertaken to run the challenge and provide everyone feedback on at least one photo/week. The prestige of Andy's challenge will be established or not by the quality of entries and the quality of judging and feedback.

Fine. But what does Andy have that 'Gus and the rest of us don't? Well, depending on which of us you compare him to, there is photographic talent, taste, knowledge, experience, stature, &etc. But speaking very concretely, all he has is:

The ability to make a sticky thread, and
A prize worth about $25 to give every two weeks.
If there were an alternative challenge format that enough of us believed in, I think we could overcome 2 and probably even 1. Or maybe 1 wouldn't matter because we'd get so many submissions and discussion. I'm a computer engineer and a logic nerd by profession, so it is very easy for me to be creative about contest formats:

Preferential voting -- everyone ranks all the photos from highest to lowest. This kind of voting is well knows to work well in situations where there are a large number of candidates for a few number of voters. This is sort of like Zagats.
The cull is done by the winner of the previous contest, who is ineligible for the current (to make him/her benevolent.)
Ok, I'll stop. I can do this essentially forever. And that's sort of the point. A photographic competition would have to be compelling in some way in order to compete with Andy's, just as Andy's competition (and dgrin in general) has to be very compelling in order to compete with Fred Miranda's WA and MA or Kodak's POTD. Andy has differentiated his contest from those contests by making the culling process transparent and providing lots of feedback. The only fault I can find with it is that I'd like to see the feedback he has provided the finalists. I think I could learn as much from that as from the feedback I've gotten about my own entries.

'Gus, how would we differentiate an alternative contest? By some very democratic voting process? By a large prize? A monthly instead of weekly format? If we have something worth trying, there is really nothing stopping us. But I hope we don't discourage Andy from his benevolent moderation of the current challenge.

[Andy]

The challenge in its current format is Andy's game and he has poured his valuable energy and time into it. Andy is a professional photographer and has a wonderful eye. He charges and (presumably) gets good money to teach photography; people travel to NYC to take his workshops. The feedback he offers in this forum is very valuable. It's a wonderful gift that he has undertaken to run the challenge and provide everyone feedback on at least one photo/week. The prestige of Andy's challenge will be established or not by the quality of entries and the quality of judging and feedback.

Fine. But what does Andy have that 'Gus and the rest of us don't? Well, depending on which of us you compare him to, there is photographic talent, taste, knowledge, experience, stature, &etc. But speaking very concretely, all he has is:

The ability to make a sticky thread, and
A prize worth about $25 to give every two weeks.
If there were an alternative challenge format that enough of us believed in, I think we could overcome 2 and probably even 1. Or maybe 1 wouldn't matter because we'd get so many submissions and discussion. I'm a computer engineer and a logic nerd by profession, so it is very easy for me to be creative about contest formats:

Preferential voting -- everyone ranks all the photos from highest to lowest. This kind of voting is well knows to work well in situations where there are a large number of candidates for a few number of voters. This is sort of like Zagats.
The cull is done by the winner of the previous contest, who is ineligible for the current (to make him/her benevolent.)
Ok, I'll stop. I can do this essentially forever. And that's sort of the point. A photographic competition would have to be compelling in some way in order to compete with Andy's, just as Andy's competition (and dgrin in general) has to be very compelling in order to compete with Fred Miranda's WA and MA or Kodak's POTD. Andy has differentiated his contest from those contests by making the culling process transparent and providing lots of feedback. The only fault I can find with it is that I'd like to see the feedback he has provided the finalists. I think I could learn as much from that as from the feedback I've gotten about my own entries.

'Gus, how would we differentiate an alternative contest? By some very democratic voting process? By a large prize? A monthly instead of weekly format? If we have something worth trying, there is really nothing stopping us. But I hope we don't discourage Andy from his benevolent moderation of the current challenge.

first, i thank you for the kind words about me, my work, and the challenges here at dgrin. also for your possible suggestions -- which *may* be incorporated in the future at some point -- just not right now :wink

one very very important thing i've fogotten to mention in this thread here: the forum voting software only allows up to 10 choices for voting. it take at least two hours total time to cull the present number of entries down to 10 choices. imagine when we have even more! and, i am not going to get into any sort of manual voting process....

i am an active contributor over on the sony forum at dpreview, and i've participated in the fortnightly challenges there for the past year. the way it works there, is if you win, you host the next challenge. i've had the good fortune to host several of these challenges ( :wink ) . participation is huge - as many as 250 entries. the voting is a manual process (voters post their votes in a thread) and the host has the *lovely* job of tallying the votes. when there's a close vote, you have to count all the votes a second time. and maybe a third. this can take hours. it's not pretty, but the competition is so stiff that i continue to enter every two weeks - it keeps my skills up, yes, but most importantly, i learn something new by participating in every challenge. to me, that's what it's all about.

so, what's my point? here:

let's remember what the purpose of the dgrin challenges is: to challenge ourselves, to think outside of the box, to try a new form or style of photography, to ask tons of questions, to study and learn from other photographers, and other sources, to become more self-critical, to become more receptive of constructive criticism, and oh yeah - to compete to win.

notice what came last?

every other monday, after you've submitted your best work, feel the satisfaction that you've challenged yourself, learned something, and improved your skills. vote for the best of the finalists, have a celebratory drinkor doughnut, and start thinking about the next round :duel

enjoy (challenging *yourself*) photography,

[Wolf]

Hi Andy,

Even though I haven't contributed to any of the Challanges here yet, I know you have much work involved in what you do. So, I would like to say Thanks. I have enjoyed looking at the submissions and reading all of the advice, tips and comments that are offered up. I hope to submit something worthy one day and hope to learn from the experience! Thanks again!

[rutt]

first, i thank you for the kind words about me, my work, and the challenges here at dgrin. also for your possible suggestions -- which *may* be incorporated in the future at some point -- just not right now :wink


Just to make the point of my post very clear, I only made one small suggestion for your challenge -- post the feedback for the finalists as well as for the shots that don't make the cut. I think I would learn as much from that as I do from the feedback for the also rans. This isn't a hard change and I think it would add a lot. We want to know why you like what you like best as well as knowing what you have to say about the ones that don't make it. Do consider doing this, it's no extra work for you; you've already written the critiques.

The other suggestions were aimed at 'Gus, not at you. If he wants to start up some other sort of contest, he can; what's to stop him? He'd have to compete with you for "eyeballs" and for participation. In order for that to happen, he'd have to offer something to differentiate his contest. I was giving examples of that.

[Andy]

Just to make the point of my post very clear, I only made one small suggestion for your challenge -- post the feedback for the finalists as well as for the shots that don't make the cut. I think I would learn as much from that as I do from the feedback for the also rans. This isn't a hard change and I think it would add a lot. We want to know why you like what you like best as well as knowing what you have to say about the ones that don't make it. Do consider doing this, it's no extra work for you; you've already written the critiques.

The other suggestions were aimed at 'Gus, not at you. If he wants to start up some other sort of contest, he can; what's to stop him? He'd have to compete with you for "eyeballs" and for participation. In order for that to happen, he'd have to offer something to differentiate his contest. I was giving examples of that.

i've already done that...

here are my comments on the finalists for challenge 13 (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=14684&postcount=6)

they are short & sweet but i'm working on that... thanks for your contribution to this thread & discussion!

[rutt]

i've already done that...

here are my comments on the finalists for challenge 13 (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=14684&postcount=6)

they are short & sweet but i'm working on that... thanks for your contribution to this thread & discussion!
Thanks. Feedback for the winning shot is missing. Is that a mistake?

And what about this weeks shots? Are you saving for after the voting results? That would make sense. In any case, I'd like to see the finalist's feedback posted in some standard way so that it was easy to find for each challenge.

[ginger_55]

Thanks. Feedback for the winning shot is missing. Is that a mistake?

And what about this weeks shots? Are you saving for after the voting results? That would make sense. In any case, I'd like to see the finalist's feedback posted in some standard way so that it was easy to find for each challenge.
___________________________________

This feedback on Challenge 13 was not hidden. I have already seen, read and memorized what I just saw now. It was posted obviously enough last time that I saw it.
I don't think Andy could comment on why the #1 photo was voted "best". It was only picked by him to be one of the 10 finalists. The rest of us voted, for whatever, various reasons, for the winning photo. Andy would not know why I voted, or why you voted.
I hope people remember that this is subjective, as good as Andy is, as good as you are, as good as............... It is art, it is subjective. There is no way around that, no matter who voted or how many times. Have faith in your work, be glad, I am, for a place where it is seen and commented on.
(Andy, if you didn't win on dpreview, you wouldn't have to go to all that work the next time around, LOL)
ginger

[rutt]

___________________________________

I don't think Andy could comment on why the #1 photo was voted "best". It was only picked by him to be one of the 10 finalists. The rest of us voted, for whatever, various reasons, for the winning photo. Andy would not know why I voted, or why you voted.

But his feedback on this shot as a finalist was missing. Presumably he wrote that when he selected it.

[Andy]

Thanks. Feedback for the winning shot is missing. Is that a mistake?

And what about this weeks shots? Are you saving for after the voting results? That would make sense. In any case, I'd like to see the finalist's feedback posted in some standard way so that it was easy to find for each challenge.

well now that was an oversight on my part :bash

here is my comment on wxwax's winning shot from the past challenge (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=16173&postcount=12)

for this one, i will post my comments after the voting closes. thanks.

[ginger_55]

But his feedback on this shot as a finalist was missing. Presumably he wrote that when he selected it._________________

I remember, I think accurately, I just looked, the winner the last time was that dramatic black and white shot, everything else, like the name and photographer I have forgotten. You can look it up. But the comment from Andy was with it as he congratulated the winner. Great lighting, composition, etc........
ginger

[dkapp]

well now that was an oversight on my part :bash

here is my comment on wxwax's winning shot from the past challenge (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=16173&postcount=12)

for this one, i will post my comments after the voting closes. thanks.

When does voting close? I thought it was about 48 hours....Monday night to Wednesday night?

Dave

[Andy]

When does voting close? I thought it was about 48 hours....Monday night to Wednesday night?

Dave

12noon nyc time today, thursday

[damonff]

Hi everyone,
We have decided to make a small change in the weekly assignment finalist's selection process.
Currently, Daschund and I choose the finalists by a selective process. Then, your votes decide which photos make it as the top three winners. We have been able to execute this every Monday for over a year and with your help, have maintained a high level of WA winners.

However, choosing the finalists every week is a lot of responsibility on our shoulders and we both feel that more of this job should be shared with the participants.
Starting this week, the current WA first place winner will join us as a guest judge and choose 5 submissions for the finalists. Daschund and I will also choose 5 finalists each. We will then have a total of 15 selections every week. The number of total finalists posted for voting will vary depending on how many duplicates we have. It could be 5 finalists if we happen to choose the same images or 15 finalists if we choose different images.

The WA 117: dougbfl first place winner, will be invited as a guest judge this week. Of course it is his option to decide whether or not he wants to participate. (Therefore, in case the first place winner decides not to participate, the current WA second place winner would be invited as a judge instead.)

We take pride and enjoy selecting WA finalists and hope that this new selection process will benefit us all. I look forward to seeing your entries this week. http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/emoticons/thumb.gif

All the best,
Fred

[rutt]

Interesting that they felt the need to change this just when I had begun to think they were getting stale and were not choosing the best images. Interesting that they changed to a format so close to one that I've been considering. Makes me feel like a *$&%* genius. Bush should hire me to solve the war in Iraq.

[damonff]

I knew you'd dig it the most...

Interesting that they felt the need to change this just when I had begun to think they were getting stale and were not choosing the best images. Interesting that they changed to a format so close to one that I've been considering. Makes me feel like a *$&%* genius. Bush should hire me to solve the war in Iraq.