Confused

[Zanotti]

Hi All, thanks for all your help over the last few months that I have enjoyed reading the site.

I am ready to progress beyond my point and shoot world and get a good DSLR. I went today to the local store to convince myself that this was a really good idea - you know, expert images from a DSLR rather than my canon s110 and Canon S1IS that I am using today.

I asked to see the Rebel XT, liked the size and functionality. I brought with me a CF card to take a couple test shots and show myself that they are superior to what I can now produce. Any way, a couple shots in the parking lot and store and came home - disappointed to say the least! They are not that sharp.

I put in the card and set the camera on auto program mode. Went into the lot and took an automatic photo of the nearest car and some trees. Not very sharp. Tried some sharpening on Microsoft "Picture it" and it did not improve. Is the sharpness I see here all post processing? How can I learn to do that?

What's up? The images are huge 3 to 5 meg each. Why are they not sharp like those I see on the site? What am I missing?

I put them up on smugmug - see below, but they are just snapshots, not good quality I see here. No comment on the composition, just on picture focus and quality.

http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/32292690-M.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:window.open('http://R1150R.smugmug.com/photos/popup.mg?ImageID=32292690&Size=Large','photo32292690','toolbar=no,scrollbars =yes,resizable=yes,width=800,height=583'); void('');)

Photograph Details (http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/newexif.mg?ImageID=32292690)http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/32292690-Ti.jpgDate Taken:2005-08-15 23:40:06Date Digitized:2005-08-15 23:40:06Date Modified:2005-08-15 23:40:06Make:CanonModel: Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XT Size: 3456x2304 Bytes: 5408831 Aperture: f/14.0 ISO: 400 Focal Length: 49mm (guess: 52mm in 35mm) Exposure Time: 0.004s (1/250)Flash:Flash did not fire, compulsory flash modeExposure Program:Normal programExposure Bias:0ColorSpace:sRGB
http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/32292700-M.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:window.open('http://R1150R.smugmug.com/photos/popup.mg?ImageID=32292700&Size=Large','photo32292700','toolbar=no,scrollbars =yes,resizable=yes,width=800,height=583'); void('');)

Photograph Details (http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/newexif.mg?ImageID=32292700)http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/32292700-Ti.jpgDate Taken:2005-08-15 23:39:54Date Digitized:2005-08-15 23:39:54Date Modified:2005-08-15 23:39:54Make:CanonModel: Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XT Size: 3456x2304 Bytes: 4684268 Aperture: f/14.0 ISO: 400 Focal Length: 55mm (guess: 59mm in 35mm) Exposure Time: 0.0025s (1/400)Flash:Flash did not fire, compulsory flash modeExposure Program:Normal programExposure Bias:0ColorSpace:sRGB

http://R1150R.smugmug.com/photos/32292700-S.jpg



http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/32292706-M.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:window.open('http://R1150R.smugmug.com/photos/popup.mg?ImageID=32292706&Size=Large','photo32292706','toolbar=no,scrollbars =yes,resizable=yes,width=800,height=583'); void('');)
Photograph Details (http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/newexif.mg?ImageID=32292706)http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/32292706-Ti.jpgDate Taken:2005-08-15 23:39:29Date Digitized:2005-08-15 23:39:29Date Modified:2005-08-15 23:39:29Make:CanonModel: Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XT Size: 3456x2304 Bytes: 3132727 Aperture: f/5.6 ISO: 400 Focal Length: 55mm (guess: 59mm in 35mm) Exposure Time: 0.0166s (1/60)Flash:Flash fired, auto modeExposure Program:Normal programExposure Bias:0ColorSpace:sRGB



Absolutely shot from the hip, no tripod, not much thought - just point and shoot. Did not look at processing other than the settings were on fine and jpg. Took the card out, put it in a reader and displayed. How can I learn how to adjust for improvement. I bought photoshop for dummies, but it didnt help (Not fair actually, I dont yet have the program and learnig without doing is difficult. I am an engineer by training, so I should be able to learn anything!)

Thanks for the help!

[pathfinder]

Whoa there Zanotti. Evaluating the sharpness and focus of hand held shots can be tricky on the web. You did not you use a tripod, did you??

The XT is a great camera and I am sure it is capable of great images. Can you post the exif data for these images and perhaps set your smugmug account to allow access to the to the original files, rather than the 800x600 images here on dgrin.

Were these shot as RAW or in camera jpgs also? The standard setting for in camera jpgs in the 20D seems pretty soft - but just changing a few settings in the set up menu sharpens things up quite nicely. There is a bit of a learning curve to getting great images from a DSLR, rather than the "what you see is what you get" with a P&S.

[Zanotti]

Reply imbedded within editing. Thanks1

[wxwax]

I assume you used autofocus?

As PF said, DSLR images usually need processing to be their best. That includes sharpening. PF said it wrt in-camera settings.

[Zanotti]

I am ready and willing to go through the learning curve, but how does one do it?


I see all these "first shots with my new 4000mw lens" and they are beautiful images - ones that remind me of my old film days. How do I get from here to there?

It seems an impossible task from this angle. I cant be the first (or last) but it does seem daunting ( and expensive),
Z

DoctorIT: You have a new XT - how's it look to you?

[wxwax]

You're right about the expensive part, I'm afraid.

When all is said and done, when you make the switch to dslr, the new camera body ends up being a fairly small percentage of the overall $$$ you spend as part of the upgrade in gear. There's no getting around it, from what I can see.

[pathfinder]

I am ready and willing to go through the learning curve, but how does one do it?


I see all these "first shots with my new 4000mw lens" and they are beautiful images - ones that remind me of my old film days. How do I get from here to there?

It seems an impossible task from this angle. I cant be the first (or last) but it does seem daunting ( and expensive),
Z

DoctorIT: You have a new XT - how's it look to you?


Realize that someone posting sharp images of their new 400mm lens, probably is not a beginner at digital photography - they just got a new lens, but they have been using a DSLR or at least an SLR for a while before they jumped in and bought a 400mm lens for 1K USD or so.

So, Ok - you're an engineer - you are a smart guy.:): So we'll start at the very beginning and work from there. What does it take to create a sharp image??


1) A stable shooting position - tripod or really fast shutter speed - 1/250th is close but 1/60th is marginal to evaluate images by. Stabbing the shutter is responsible for more blurred images than all the poor quality plastic optics from some strange, foreign land.

2) Good optics - some are better than others, but most commercial lenses are pretty fair or they would not be in business. The lens you used seems to be around 50mm in focal length. OK. Kit lens perhaps? Not the best glass, but certainly adequately sharp. But remember - many of the images on dgrin have been shot with prime lenses, not consumer zooms.

3) Lower ISO is better than higher. You shot at ISO 400 ( or the camera chose ISO 400). Did you use the camera in the green automatic modes or did you shoot Av or Tv or Program? The image will have more grain at ISO 400 than ISO 100. Why use ISO 400 in bright sunlight if you are evaluting image quality?

4) Your images suffer from low contrast as well as overall dullness. As I said earlier, when you receive most DSLRs, they are set up to not create high contrast, high color saturation sharp jpgs, because sharp, contrasty jpgs have been processed in the cameras CPU and data has been discarded in the creation of the jpg. The very best images are captured in RAW, and then processed and sharpened in Photoshop CS. The G5 Mac on my desk is a lot more powerful than the computer built into my 20D, and with my help, can create lots better images than the automatic jpgs created in camera.

5) That said, my 20D can do a darn good job of creating jpgs, in camera, if I am dead on with my exposure. Modern DSLRs are very much like shooting slide film in terms of exposure latitude. Errors in exposure create more harm in incamera jpgs, than when I process them from RAW.

Go into the setup menu, and increase the contrast, and color saturation, and in camera sharpening, and you will find a lot of the image quality that you are looking for.

I am sure the 350XT, if properly setup and used, can create superb images that put most point and shoots into the ditch. But it does take a little knowledge, and some ability to use Photoshop. Photoshop is not used to create a good image from a bad iamge, but to make a very good image great. EVERY image I post on dgrin has been processed through Photoshop. If that investment in time is too great, you may be happier with a P&S.

I have downloaded your images from dgrin - the 800x600 pixels and processed each in PS. I used a "Curves" adjustment to increase the contrast in the middle tones and sharpened each image with Unsharp Mask using 25% Sharpen, Radius 50, and Threshhold 3. and then saved them back as jpgs. Here they are

Trees
http://pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/32326695-M.jpg

car
http://pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/32328507-M.jpg

store
http://pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/32326745-M.jpg

How do they compare to the images your posted?? Better? Worse? Undecided?? Image precessing of 600x800 leaves a lot to be desired, compared to 8 Mpx images being processed.


For comparison, here is a shot I took with a 300 Rebel ( the 6 Mpxl earlier version of the 8Mpxl one you tried) that has been converted to IR, but that is certainly inferior to the newer 350XT.


http://pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/32320746-L.jpg


The discussion of image sharpness literally encompasses a huge volume of information from sensor resolution to optics to image processing - literally years of stuff to enjoy and learn. I have just barely skimmed across the surface. Hang around dgrin and read and ask questions and you will find a whole new world to use and enjoy with digital photography. Engineers make great digital photographers because they can really understand stuff like Modulation Transfer Factors, f stops and shutter speeds.

Welcome to dgrin:thumb

[DavidTO]

Nice summary, PF.

And I have always loved that image.

[pathfinder]

Nice summary, PF.

And I have always loved that image.


Thanks Dave, but I suspect the one you saw was B&W not IR - maybe??

This is the original one I submitted for a Challenge last year or so in B&W, not IR
http://pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/8773392-L.jpg

I think I kinda like the IR better, maybe?? Thanks anyway :):


Any other comments or suggestions about sharpness of images, and comparing images from P&Ss versus DSLRS?

[Rohirrim]

Try not and get too frustrated. I've never owned a Point and Shoot, but have been extremely happy with my DSLR. I purchased the Digital Rebel 1 1/2 years ago and just recently purchased the Canon 20D. It didn't take that long to start using them, although I'm sure it will take a lot longer to get really good with them.

As Pathfinder noted I think you have to look at the Camera settings to see what went wrong with your pictures. ISO is probably too high for the bright sunlight you appear to have taken the images in. I'd recommend going back to the store, putting the camera in P mode and shoot again. This should shoot at an ISO of 100, the camera will choose the Shutter Speed and f stop. Eventually you will learn to play with the settings even more, but this is a good start. Also take pictures of the same thing at the same time with your P&S and then compare.

While a Tripod will definatley help you get sharper images, you can get some pretty nice shots without a Tripod, especially if your using the appropriate shutter speed. The vast majority of the images in my Landscape gallery (http://rohirrim.smugmug.com/Landscapes) were taken with the Digital Rebel (pre XT) and the Kit 18-55mm lens (without a tripod). While they are not as good as the images of many of the photographers in this forum I think that is more a function of the photographer and not the equipment.

IMHO,


You will be able to get better images out of the camera with the DSLR than the P&S in a very short time.
You dont have to spend hours on every image in Photoshop to get good images. (although you can make everyone at least a little better in Photoshop)
You don't have to have an L series Prime lens to get good pictures. Yes the pics will be a little better with the L but you will be able to get some very nice pictures without an L lens.
Regards and have fun with whatever camera you choose,

[Zanotti]

Thanks to all for the nice replies and advice. I think I am ready to press forward and try and improve my craft.

Zanotti