new canon 5d

[Andy]

dpreview and fredmiranda are all agog over a possible leak on the new canon camera. i have just spoken to the guy that authored this document (http://alex.netfun.ro/Canon5D-specs.pdf ) and after 15 mins on the phone with jim bowes (http://www.aabc.nl/sponsor_individual.html?sp_id=1049&PHPSESSID=b8764ac08349ad628f3ed94f20b198dd) from his office in the netherlands, i'm at this point willing to say that the info is legit and real.


pretty darn cool if you ask me :D

discuss.

[DavidTO]

dpreview and fredmiranda are all agog over a possible leak on the new canon camera. i have just spoken to the guy that authored this document (http://alex.netfun.ro/Canon5D-specs.pdf ) and after 15 mins on the phone with jim bowes (http://www.aabc.nl/sponsor_individual.html?sp_id=1049&PHPSESSID=b8764ac08349ad628f3ed94f20b198dd) from his office in the netherlands, i'm at this point willing to say that the info is legit and real.


pretty darn cool if you ask me :D

discuss.


Any idea on the price? Did that say it would be available in August, or October? I was confused, not being fluent in Spanish. The price will tell us if the 20D will go down at that time, too.

[wxwax]

Cool link. If it talks about sensor size, I can't see it. :dunno Does the fact that it won't take EF-S lenses mean that the sensor's larger than the 350D's?

[wxwax]

Any idea on the price? Did that say it would be available in August, or October? I was confused, not being fluent in Spanish. The price will tell us if the 20D will go down at that time, too.
Announced in August, sales begin middle of October, I think it says.

[Andy]

Announced in August, sales begin middle of October, I think it says.

:nod

re: sensor size, it's right there on page 2 of the pdf

35.8 x 23.9mm CMOS
12.8 million effective pixels

[patch29]

Cool link. If it talks about sensor size, I can't see it. :dunno Does the fact that it won't take EF-S lenses mean that the sensor's larger than the 350D's?


cool. Hope it is true.

1.0x Multiplication with EF lens fitted

[Andy]

Any idea on the price?

the document states €3549 euros ... factor in that canon gear in europe is about 20% more than in the u.s., and that would put it in the ~ $3,500 usd range here in the states....

[patch29]

It would be nice to know a price, that would be a great camera. I have been waiting for a higher performance camera with a smaller chassis. :thumb

[wxwax]

It would be nice to know a price, that would be a great camera. I have been waiting for a higher performance camera with a smaller chassis. :thumb
I'd say about $3500 US.

:lol3 :evil

[Andy]

It would be nice to know a price, that would be a great camera. I have been waiting for a higher performance camera with a smaller chassis. :thumb

i suppose i can wait until october :uhoh

[Andy]

I'd say about $3500 US.

:lol3 :evil

:flip

[Richard S]

Here's the reader's digest version:

- 12.8 MP, full frame, no support for EF-S lenses

- Form factor about the same as 10D, rear control layout about the
same as 20D. Weighs a bit more than 10D.

- Rear LCD 2.5" / 230K pixels

- RGB Histogram

- Spot metering

- 9 point AF + 6 "invisible" AF points

- No built-in flash or AF-assist

- Takes new BG-E4 grip and new 430EX flash

- We don't know if the mode selection dial is in the 10D/20D style or
the 1D/1Ds "pro" style (need to press two buttons to do anything).

[Andy]

return email from mr bowes

Dear Andy,

Thanks for contacting me even though it has completely stressed me out. I guess you are now way ahead of the game. I am in contact with Canon and once I find out their position I will contact you.

Thanks again, and if your ever in Amsterdam I'll take you out for a big splif.

Jim

ya gotta love amsterdam. in nyc, i'd tell him: "i'll take you out for a big steak, and some beerz..." :lol3

[pathfinder]

Is this new 5D based on the sensor form the discontinued 1Ds perhaps? Sounds about the right digital size and it is full frame. That should be a really nice camera with Digic-ll and a 20D size body. Very interesting.

[Higgmeister]

Cool link. If it talks about sensor size, I can't see it. :dunno Does the fact that it won't take EF-S lenses mean that the sensor's larger than the 350D's?
Hi Sid,
It's a full size sensor:

IMAGE SENSOR
Type: 35.8 x 23.9mm CMOS
Effective Pixels: 12.8M Approx.
Total Pixels:13.3M Approx.
Aspect Ratio:3:2
Low-Pass Filter: Built in/Fixed
Colour Filter Type: Primary Colour

LENS
Lens Mount: EF (excludes EF-S lenses)
Focal Length: 1.0x Multiplication with EF lens fitted

Pulled this directly from the PDF doc. Looks like an upgrade to the 20D and not a replacement.

Chris

[Richard S]

> Is this new 5D based on the sensor from the discontinued 1Ds perhaps?

No, this camera is more kin to the 1Ds Mark II.

It looks like Canon is going down the path of full frame for pros and
1.6x + EF-S lenses for consumers. Nice and simple. I like it.

The leaked announcement also makes reference to a "1D Mark II N".

I bet it's another full frame camera, and the 1.3x 1D Mark II will get
phased out. It all makes perfect sense.

[robscomputer]

Very intersting but I'm not sure where does this camera fit in the current DSLR line? Is this a step up from the 20D? Kinda of comparing the EOS 3 upgrade from the film Rebel?

Looks like there is still going to be a huge gap between the 20D price range of $1,500 and this new camera of $3,500.

Rob

[Andy]

i sure hope it's true - nearly *half* the weight of the 1Ds Mark II and only 40grams heavier than the 20d :thumb

[gus]

:humungus anyone wanna buy a 10-22

[DavidTO]

i sure hope it's true - nearly *half* the weight of the 1Ds Mark II and only 40grams heavier than the 20d :thumb


Yeah, it looks like the perfect camera for Andy. Aside from not taking the 10-22, the best of all worlds.

Are we going to start seeing pics from an IR modded 20D?

[dragon300zx]

Gus, The camera's not out yet and your already thinking of upgrading. I guess one good trick deserves another but I think you got a more costly addiction hanging out with andy than he got hanging out with you.

[Andy]

Are we going to start seeing pics from an IR modded 20D?


:nah read my post on the ir-modded 20d (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=15846&highlight=ir-modded) here.

[Andy]

Gus, The camera's not out yet and your already thinking of upgrading. I guess one good trick deserves another but I think you got a more costly addiction hanging out with andy than he got hanging out with you.

rumors of gus turning tricks at yosemite are highly exaggerated!

[Andy]

Yeah, it looks like the perfect camera for Andy. Aside from not taking the 10-22, the best of all worlds.

Are we going to start seeing pics from an IR modded 20D?

yeah, okay, it's nice if you're using this camera and say a 20d as backup.. but ... the 16-35L or 17-40L will be just fine on this ff body :D , no need for the 10-22 efs :deal

[davev]

Looks like it will be great for the wide angle folks. I don't know if it would do
much for the bird/nature folks.

5D, 12.8 megapixel.
20D, 8.0 megapixel.

So if I use a 200mm lens on both cameras, the area in the center of the 5D (8 meg center crop)
should almost be pixel for pixel the same as the whole pic from the 20D because of the sensor crop.
Does this sound about right?

I know there are other features that are appealing. I'm just talking wide angle
users and telephoto users.

[lynnesite]

Sounds like just what I've been waiting for, a pro camera with the 10/20D's form factor for my smaller hands. (I've got the cans and pecs from years with the 70-200 2.8 IS though). :clap :lust :clap Now to get busy and make the dough so I can stand in line. And be able to handle the weight of the 1.4 TC more often.

Maybe Andy will buy one early on and decide it's too small or something, and I can get one that way.

[Seamus]

hopefully there will be loads of cheap second hand 1dmk11's on sale soon.

[Steve Cavigliano]

return email from mr bowes



ya gotta love amsterdam. in nyc, i'd tell him: "i'll take you out for a big steak, and some beerz..." :lol3
LOL..... That's all you need. To be drugged up while near a place that sells camera gear :rofl Speaking of which, do you have your 5D pre-order in with B&H yet? :lol

Still no ISO settings in the VF :cry

Steve

[wxwax]

:humungus anyone wanna buy a 10-22
Told you so. :bad

Don't worry, 2 more years down the road and they'll have another one you'll want. It may never end.

[ScottMcLeod]

See this just posted:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=16261

2D Mk. II

True-r Perhaps?

5d taken by minolta, shoddy PDF file, almost photoshopped quality.

[wxwax]

See this just posted:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=16261

2D Mk. II

True-r Perhaps?

5d taken by minolta, shoddy PDF file, almost photoshopped quality.
Where's the 2D mkI? I want my 2D mkI!

[Andy]

hopefully there will be loads of cheap second hand 1dmk11's on sale soon.

and perhaps some 1Ds Mark IIs :uhoh

[Bodley]

hopefully there will be loads of cheap second hand 1dmk11's on sale soon.Don't think so - a lot of 1DmkII users are sports shooters and 3fps is not a big draw for that crowd.

Hope I'm wrong - I could use a cheap backup :D

[gtc]

Told you so. :bad

Don't worry, 2 more years down the road and they'll have another one you'll want. It may never end.
I agree!

Speaking as someone who is just off to the shop now to pick up his 20d and ef-s macro 60 I couldn't be less bothered- it looks great but expensive-maybe in a few years after I have come close to exploring the full functionality of my 20d ,if that ever happens,then I might see about picking up one of these on the secondhand market.

It looks like it will nicely fill a gap.

The Canon range now has pro- 1dsmk2,semi-pro /enthusiast(the new baby),enthusiast(20d) and consumer/enthusiast(350d)

My tip is that they won't discontinue 20d as it fills a logical place in the lineup-a full frame pro and a full frame semi-pro/enthusiast as the top grouping and a second layer with the aps-c 20d and 350d.

Between you and me I think that if Canon increases the range of efs lenses available, that the 20d will flourish in the travel and photojournalism market, due to light weight ,portability and manageable files sizes for uploading purposes.

[JohnR]

Personally I think it's fake.

A friend said to me:
"Canon has 3 DSLR categories: Pro (one digit: 1D+1Ds families), Prosumer (two digits: D30, D60, 10D, 20D families), Consumer (three digits: 300D, 350D families)

The 5D being a single digit falls into the Pro category and missing important pro features: a weather sealed body + 45 AF points + more..."

[ziggy53]

I kinda' wonder if this is positioned as a replacement for the 1Ds? (Not the MKII, but the original.) It has some upgrade features but the same (almost) resolution and shooting speed.

The 1Ds is about 3 years old, so I could see it happening.

ziggy53

[S. Reed]

Anybody wanna buy a well used 10D? :thumb

[Andy]

Anybody wanna buy a well used 10D? :thumb

betcha lotsa folks will be interested in that camera, put it up for sale in our b&s forum :D

[David_S85]

Listed is an ISO-L @ 50. This is interesting; but needed? H is still 3200.

Why would the flash sync be limited to 1/200th when Canon has already moved beyond that to 1/250th with the 20D? Somehow, this doesn't make sense to me.

I also just noticed that the histogram seems to have two readouts: Brightness or RGB. Perhaps this is a setting with one of those extra custom functions?

[gtc]

return email from mr bowes{spliff}



ya gotta love amsterdam. in nyc, i'd tell him: "i'll take you out for a big steak, and some beerz..." :lol3
remind me never to invite you to join me in a spliff

[Seamus]

Don't think so - a lot of 1DmkII users are sports shooters and 3fps is not a big draw for that crowd.

Hope I'm wrong - I could use a cheap backup :D
There is a reference to a 1dmk11 N on the first page of the document
http://alex.netfun.ro/Canon5D-specs.pdf

That's why I'm hoping there will be a glut of mk11's at the end of the year :clap .

[Michiel de Brieder]

There is a reference to a 1dmk11 N on the first page of the document
http://alex.netfun.ro/Canon5D-specs.pdf

That's why I'm hoping there will be a glut of mk11's at the end of the year :clap .
Yeah, the 1Ds MII will drop like crazy so to Andy, you'd better sell it to me for €1500 now or you'll never get rid of it :wink :rofl

[yvonne]

In all honesty, this 5D isn't really doing it for me. FF, ok. But I've now got used to getting a nice bit of close up with my 70-200. And as for more pixels? I shoot weddings and portraits. I don't need more pixels. Otherwise I've got to be yet more harddrives. I would've liked to have seen higher ISO and/or some image stabilisation functions.

I won't be queueing up on day one just yet...

[Andy]

In all honesty, this 5D isn't really doing it for me. FF, ok. But I've now got used to getting a nice bit of close up with my 70-200. And as for more pixels? I shoot weddings and portraits. I don't need more pixels. Otherwise I've got to be yet more harddrives. I would've liked to have seen higher ISO and/or some image stabilisation functions.

I won't be queueing up on day one just yet...

hey, to be sure, such a camera isn't for everyone - the 20d is an extremely capable camera, so there's got to be a reason for upgrading - for some, it might be the huge lcd screen, for on-site review - for others, it might be the added resolution, and ff bright optical viewfinder...

it's interesting to discuss, that's for sure :D

[Bodley]

dpreview and fredmiranda are all agog over a possible leak on the new canon camera. i have just spoken to the guy that authored this document (http://alex.netfun.ro/Canon5D-specs.pdf) and after 15 mins on the phone with jim bowes (http://www.aabc.nl/sponsor_individual.html?sp_id=1049&PHPSESSID=b8764ac08349ad628f3ed94f20b198dd) from his office in the netherlands, i'm at this point willing to say that the info is legit and real.


pretty darn cool if you ask me :D

discuss.How about hitting the redial and asking Ol Jim if he can send out the spec sheet for the 1DmkII-N. You know us Dgrinners can keep a secrete :wink

[Ruud G.]

In all honesty, this 5D isn't really doing it for me. FF, ok. But I've now got used to getting a nice bit of close up with my 70-200. And as for more pixels? I shoot weddings and portraits. I don't need more pixels. Otherwise I've got to be yet more harddrives. I would've liked to have seen higher ISO and/or some image stabilisation functions.

I won't be queueing up on day one just yet...I agree with that, Now I have the 20D, and I really like the camera.
No more pixels needed and because we most of the time use the 100-400mm in southern africa on safari...I wait a while..:thumb

Ruud

http://www.afrikafotosafari.nl (http://www.afrikafotosafari.nl/)

[mercphoto]

I got a chance to speak with a Canon regional rep a few months back during a dog-and-pony show at my local store. I had asked him about the Mark II versus my 20D. I told him I liked much about the Mark II, but liked the 1.6X crop factor because of my sports photography (which wants telephoto, not wide angle). He said don't hold your breath on a 1.6 crop factor Mark II. He said most pros don't like the 1.3 crop factor already, and a 1.6 would be worse. They want the large viewfinder, the ease of manual focus. They also want the shallow depth of field that full frame gives. As per crop factor, the big pros simply buy bigger glass. I guess its people like me who need to compensate focal length with sensor size. :D

Now, what would not surprise me any is the consumer and pro-sumer line stays 1.6 with the EF-S mount, and the 1.3 body disappears, leaving only 1.6 and full-frame in the line up.

[wxwax]

Your Canon guy makes a lot of sense. Bigger image in the viewfinder and easier manual focus are big deals, for me.

[marlof]

http://www.afrikafotosafari.nl (http://www.afrikafotosafari.nl/)

Good stuff! :thumb

[ziggy53]

http://www.sdcard.be/English/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=8981357

[Andy]

http://www.sdcard.be/English/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=8981357
\

:thumb sign me up

[gubbs]

Oh no, what am I going to do now, when is it going to end:help

[ziggy53]

... when is it going to end:helpHopefully, never! Compared to the technology of 10 years ago (heck, even 5 years ago) I love this time for anything to do with images, still and motion. It just gets better and better, and generally cheaper too. :wink

If we could get lenses to come down in price at the same rate as cameras and computers ...

I can't wait to see in 10 years what is available.

ziggy53

[patch29]

\

:thumb sign me up

Price, but not the most expensive, so if it is 3800 Euros, does that mean it will be $4800 USD? :ear Not horrible, but not great. It would be an awesome backpack/landscape camera.

[mercphoto]

Price, but not the most expensive, so if it is 3800 Euros, does that mean it will be $4800 USD? :ear Not horrible, but not great. It would be an awesome backpack/landscape camera.
I'm wondering how good a wedding/portrait camera it would be, especially for those that can't afford the 16MP 1Ds Mark II. If this camera is real, what market and end-user is Canon trying to hit?

[patch29]

I'm wondering how good a wedding/portrait camera it would be, especially for those that can't afford the 16MP 1Ds Mark II. If this camera is real, what market and end-user is Canon trying to hit?


I don't know if it will be a good wedding camera, yes for wide angle and small size, but 12mp is getting really big for weddings. :dunno If the high ISO's were very noise free that would make it a huge plus for weddings. Portraits, the mpx could be very useful for large wall prints.

[Andy]

Price, but not the most expensive, so if it is 3800 Euros, does that mean it will be $4800 USD? :ear Not horrible, but not great. It would be an awesome backpack/landscape camera.


see this post (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=144457&postcount=7) on page one of this thread.

[patch29]

see this post (http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=144457&postcount=7) on page one of this thread.

:doh Thanks, I thought this later doc has a higher euro price (3698). :dunno

I guess I am waiting to see when the US is going to start paying more now that the dollar is less than the Euro, but I guess all that matters is the Yen? :dunno :scratch

[Seamus]

:doh Thanks, I thought this later doc has a higher euro price (3698). :dunno

I guess I am waiting to see when the US is going to start paying more now that the dollar is less than the Euro, but I guess all that matters is the Yen? :dunno :scratch
prices in euro and dollar are roughly the same for camera equipment. A 1d mk11 is €4,200 here and is $4,000 in the US. So the 5d should be around $3.500.

shay

[patch29]

prices in euro and dollar are roughly the same for camera equipment. A 1d mk11 is €4,200 here and is $4,000 in the US. So the 5d should be around $3.500.

shay


$3500 is a lot better then $4800 or whatever a direct conversion would be. :clap :thumb

I'll wait two weeks after andy gets his and wants to sell it. :bad

[Seamus]

$3500 is a lot better then $4800 or whatever a direct conversion would be. :clap :thumb

I'll wait two weeks after andy gets his and wants to sell it. :bad

:rofl

[wholenewlight]

but 12mp is getting really big for weddings.
12mp won't be anything when the traditional wedding photogs are back using medium format - digital medium format - I think it's merely a matter of time. . . IMHO

Yes I know that a correctly exposed image from a 20D can be enlarged to big prints. And with interpolation programs like Genuine Fractals, those prints can be huge. And with affordable full-frame sensor bodies on the horizon like the 5D . . .

I've read a few articles in the rags that still point to the "bigger is better" advantage. I think the pros who have the deeper pockets and the clients to support them will go for the bigger format when all is said and done.

With Pentax, Mamiya, and Hasselblad releasing new models, I think we are just beginning to see real, usable MF choices - that aren't tethered and other cumbersome challenges. I think the MF digital world is where DSLR's were about 6-7 years ago -

[Andy]

$3500 is a lot better then $4800 or whatever a direct conversion would be. :clap :thumb

I'll wait two weeks after andy gets his and wants to sell it. :bad

:lol3 i will probably give this camera tryout - what'll kill it for me though is battery performance, hopefully it's as good as the 20d...

[ziggy53]

12mp won't be anything when the traditional wedding photogs are back using medium format - digital medium format - I think it's merely a matter of time. . . IMHO

... I think the MF digital world is where DSLR's were about 6-7 years ago -I guess I'd better hold on to my 4x5 view camera then. Imagine when we get full-frame 4x5 digital:

Virtually no noise: ISO 12800?
Pixel density and count out the yinyang? 120MP?
Really big lenses would have no Depth of Field wide open?
Impress the ladies with, "yeah, mine's bigger'n anybody's" (and I have the truss to prove it.)
Impress your banker too, with a mortgage on your camera the same amount as your house.

Ah..., to dream!!

(BTW wholenewlight, I think you are right and I am holding onto my Hassy for that reason. I doubt that large format makes a comeback however.)

ziggy53

[Bodley]

:lol3 i will probably give this camera tryout Good - the rest of us will be scrambling to checkout the Buy/Sale Forum daily waiting for the "Hand-Me-Down"

Also heard/read rumors of a 200mm f/1.8 IS and a 300mm f/2 IS. Maybe Andy could ask Jim if he is working on pdf 's?

[wholenewlight]

I guess I'd better hold on to my 4x5 view camera then.
Zig, do you really still have a 4x5? I just got rid of mine a few months ago to a photo student who gave me pretty good $$ for a well used zone VI model.

Oh oh, I think I'm being a thread hijacking violator. Apologies in advance:uhoh .

[BBones]

12mp is nice, but I need the speed and I need the zoom for filming sports. I will wait for the 1dMk3 or see about a 1dMk2 when the glut is forced to drop in price.

[windoze]

5D is unveiled -
$3495.00


http://news.techwhack.com/1878/canon-5d-is-finally-unveiled/


$3500 is a lot better then $4800 or whatever a direct conversion would be. :clap :thumb

I'll wait two weeks after andy gets his and wants to sell it. :bad

[Andy]

$3495.00



hmmm sid, where have we heard that before :scratch

[Matthew Saville]

:lol3 i will probably give this camera tryout - what'll kill it for me though is battery performance, hopefully it's as good as the 20d... Actually Andy, battery performance HAS been considerably improved! When you hold the battery within a mere 8 inches of the camera, it locks up for 48 hours. Don't know how they do it...

http://www.digitalgrin.com/images/smilies/yelrotflmao.gif
-Matt-

[wxwax]

hmmm sid, where have we heard that before :scratch
:lol3

[wxwax]

I have to give Canon credit. They are masters of the "accidental" leak. :evil

They know how manipulate folks like us, get us all atwitter, thinking we're peeking behind the curtain. Silly us. Clever them.

Good fun, though.

[Khaos]

12mp won't be anything when the traditional wedding photogs are back using medium format - digital medium format - I think it's merely a matter of time. . . IMHO

I think the MF digital world is where DSLR's were about 6-7 years ago -
A long matter of time. You said it yourself, 6 to 7 years ago. A 22 MP digital back for MF at $22,000? Ow.

[Rohirrim]

Posted on this site http://news.techwhack.com/1878/canon-5d-is-finally-unveiled/

[wxwax]

Posted on this site http://news.techwhack.com/1878/canon-5d-is-finally-unveiled/
Post #68? :lol3

[patch29]

It and a lot of other items are real, dpreview has the details, off to catch up on my reading.

[gus]

Imagine if they updated lenses as often as bodies...we'd all be robbing banks.

[patch29]

Anyone know the shutter life of the 5D? I cannot find it anywhere at the moment.

[gus]

They say its the same as a piecost

[ChrisJ]

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-5841378.html

I didn't find the release on Canon's website yet...

[Plasmodium]

When are we going to see a high dynamic range camera on the market? As an enthusiast (i.e. without specific need for fast fps or 16 megapixel resolution) I feel like being able to capture 8 or 10 stops of exposure rather than 5 or 6 would be a tremendous advance, far more so than whatever differences exist between any of the cameras on the market today.

[Ruud G.]

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-5841378.html

I didn't find the release on Canon's website yet...Try this one

http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos5d/index.html

:thumb

Ruud

[gus]

I feel like being able to capture 8 or 10 stops of exposure .
What would make this different to using RAW & setting it yourself at home on the computer ?.

[mercphoto]

When are we going to see a high dynamic range camera on the market? As an enthusiast (i.e. without specific need for fast fps or 16 megapixel resolution) I feel like being able to capture 8 or 10 stops of exposure rather than 5 or 6 would be a tremendous advance, far more so than whatever differences exist between any of the cameras on the market today.

Fuji S3-Pro.

[wxwax]

What would make this different to using RAW & setting it yourself at home on the computer ?.

The RAW file is still inhibited by the chip's inability to capture a wider dynamic range without blowing out highlights or making shadows black.

[Plasmodium]

What would make this different to using RAW & setting it yourself at home on the computer ?.Because (as has been said) a RAW image captures only abut 5 stops of light. You can adjust the tone of a RAW image with far greater flexibility than with an 8-bit jpeg, but that doesn't alter the actual contents of the image. There is only one way to expand the exposure information contained in one RAW image, and that is to use more than one RAW image, captured using different camera settings. Hence we layer shots together or use HDR features. A RAW image (many would argue) still has a lower dynamic range, especially in the highlights and shadows, than 35mm film and particularly black and white film.

If you do a net search you'll find some info about high dynamic range image sensors, but it seems to still be in the setting of journal articles (and I'm sure in the covert alcoves of the Canon corporation, etc). They are experimenting with things like having two separate sensors per pixel, one of which is a smaller sensor that has an ND filter over it -- thus you are able to capture more highlight detail at any given pixel. Just imagine, though, how different it would be to shoot inside a cathedral or to shoot a sunset (with a single exposure) if you had 8 or 10 stops of leeway with a digital sensor.

[colourbox]

What would make this different to using RAW & setting it yourself at home on the computer ?.

Raw is just a container, like a gallon bucket. What we're saying is that today's cameras are like pouring a quart of water in that gallon bucket, because that's all today's sensors can collect. We want a whole gallon!

Side note: It's generally known that digital cameras respond more like slide film than negative film. You have to nail the exposure or it looks like c***. Raw helps a lot, but if the sensors had more latitude like negative film, we'd have even more leeway in Raw. The great hope of some of us is that someday, digital might give us more latitude than even negative film did. That would be the holy grail. Megapixels and very wide exposure latitude. Then you could really take advantage of Raw.

By the way, I don't remember where I read this but there was a poll taken of professional photographers asking what features they wanted. Many of them said they had the megapixels they needed, and that better dynamic range was now a bigger need. So we're not alone.

I'm hoping for more cameras like the Fuji mentioned above. I think it has two sets of sensors for highlights and shadows.

[Plasmodium]

Raw is just a container, like a gallon bucket. What we're saying is that today's cameras are like pouring a quart of water in that gallon bucket, because that's all today's sensors can collect. We want a whole gallon!
Or, perhaps, taking a picture of the real world with today's cameras is like pouring a gallon into an 8 ounce bucket. Using RAW just keeps it from spilling as you slosh it around. :scratch

[colourbox]

Because (as has been said) a RAW image captures only abut 5 stops of light.

It's not the Raw image that's the limitation, is it? Isn't it today's sensors that only capture 5 stops? I think that's what you meant, but I want to make sure. Because it is too common to confuse bit depth with dynamic range when discussing this technology, I feel it's important to be careful with the terms. While I'm not a mathematician, I am under the impression that today's 16-bit Raw files can store many more stops of dynamic range, if only the sensors were capable of collecting it.

[colourbox]

Or, perhaps, taking a picture of the real world with todays cameras is like pouring a gallon into an 8 ounce bucket. Using RAW just keeps it from spilling as you slosh it around. :scratch

Yes, I think that's a useful extension of the idea. You sample the real world with today's 8-ounce sensor, and pour that into the gallon bucket of a Raw file that is then not near full. If we had sensors that could hold 16 ounces or more of be... uh, dynamic range, then we would make much better use of our gallon Raw bucket.

[gus]

Tks guys...i guess that answers that.

[Plasmodium]

It's not the Raw image that's the limitation, is it? Isn't it today's sensors that only capture 5 stops? I think that's what you meant...
Yes, that's what I meant -- sorry 'bout the ambiguity. The sensor captures what it captures. RAW just keeps all of what it captures, while JPEG chucks most of it.


If we had sensors that could hold 16 ounces or more of be... uh, dynamic range...
:slosh

[Andy]

give tallyn's photographic (www.tallyns.com) a try, i've bought from them plenty and they're great with the pre-order stuff. they DO NOT charge your cc until ship.

[Andy]

take a good look at these samples (http://it.nikkei.co.jp/pc/column/dcreview.aspx?i=20050909dp000dp&cp=1) hoo boy, kudos to canon for pushing the high iso bar up another notch :D

there's really good detail in some of those landscape shots, and they were taken with the 24-105 new i.s. zoom - with primes, the camera should be able to do even better. there are seven pages of samples, scroll thru and you'll find something of interest, i'm sure. most of the page is in japanese but the relevant stuff (exif etc) is readable. you can d/l full size samples.

[jogle]

It's not the Raw image that's the limitation, is it? Isn't it today's sensors that only capture 5 stops? I think that's what you meant, but I want to make sure. Because it is too common to confuse bit depth with dynamic range when discussing this technology, I feel it's important to be careful with the terms. While I'm not a mathematician, I am under the impression that today's 16-bit Raw files can store many more stops of dynamic range, if only the sensors were capable of collecting it. Colour depth (8bit, 16bit, float) isn't tied to dynamic range at all. If you weren't conserned about linear space you could cram 27 stops of dynamic range into a 3bit image, it would just look very very banded.

in 16bit colour space you can store 18,446,740,000,000,000,000 distinct shades per channel. In 8 bit it is 16,777,216 shades per channel

I work in Film VFX and everyones pipelines are moving away from 12bit logarithmic or 16 bit linear space to a floating point format that lets you set your white point to 1 and black point to 0. it lets you keep colour values above one and negative values so you can render and keep information far below your black point. In photo land they are called HDR images.

Untill we get displays that can display higher contrast ratios and papers that are whiter with inks that are blacker. all you are really getting is less contrast in your photos by tring to display too many stops of dynamic range at once.

[Mitch]

take a good look at these samples (http://it.nikkei.co.jp/pc/column/dcreview.aspx?i=20050909dp000dp&cp=1) hoo boy, kudos to canon for pushing the high iso bar up another notch :D

there's really good detail in some of those landscape shots, and they were taken with the 24-105 new i.s. zoom - with primes, the camera should be able to do even better. there are seven pages of samples, scroll thru and you'll find something of interest, i'm sure. most of the page is in japanese but the relevant stuff (exif etc) is readable. you can d/l full size samples.
Take a look at page 6 of the samples. I have 3 comment. First AMAZING. This is iso 1600. Second, looks like the sensor needs cleaning. Third, What the heck are the things flying around? They look like the biggest dragonflys I have ever seen.:dunno

Mitch

[Plasmodium]

all you are really getting is less contrast in your photos by tring to display too many stops of dynamic range at onceThe issue of dynamic range ultimately comes down to detail, not contrast. If you take photo of a scene with 6 stops of exposure, then make a print and hold a spot meter at it (i.e. the print itself), you are only going to get a very small exposure range -- I've heard 2 or 3 stops. The paper is not reproducing the dynamic range -- it's just representing detail in a wider range of light and dark areas.

So I disagree with the above statement on three grounds:

1) By definition a print can only display a limited exposure range, merely because its job is to display detail and not light; so virtually every print has limited contrast compared with the original scene. If you take a picture of the sun, your print will not be emanating the same amount of light as this celestial body, so it will indeed have a much lower contrast range than the real scene.

2) You get much more shadow and highlight detail in images with higher dynamic range; and that's what it comes down to in the end. You will see texture in the shadows, and color in the bright parts of the sunset. I just saw the Ansel Adams exhibit at Boston's Museum of Fine Arts -- pictures taken on 8x10 large format B+W negatives; and the amount of highlight and shadow detail blew away what you can achieve on a digital camera.

3) If you have an HDR image, with its ensuant highlight and shadow detail, and you are concerned that there isn't enough contrast, you always have the prerogative to modulate the contrast using your curves or levels or whatever. You can do it to a point where x amount of your highlights are pure white and y amount of your shadows are pure black -- but you're cutting out that detail. The point of RAW imaging, and large color space imaging, etc, is to start your computer workflow with as much image information as possible -- because every editing step you undertake is just a little bit destructive to the original image. If your picture doesn't need that detail, then you have the choice to throw it out (similar to how I intentionally underexposed this (http://drpablo.smugmug.com/photos/33779200-L.jpg) shot, thereby disregarding the foreground shadow detail).

[wholenewlight]

What the heck are the things flying around? They look like the biggest dragonflys I have ever seen.:dunno
MitchHmm. . . giant dragonflys . . . these photos from a Japanese IT website . . . the photos must be of . . .

Megaguirus!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Megaguirus.jpg/800px-Megaguirus.jpg

From the movie Godzilla vs Megaguirus (link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaguirus)
Megaguirus (メガギラス) is a kaiju (giant monster) and the main villain. She is a thought-to-be-extinct spiecies of dragonfly. Megaguirus has alot of abilities. She can drain the energy out of her attacker, can cut enemy with wings, create supersonic sound waves that interups electric mesages, and the energy that she sucks out with her tail she can harness to create a ball of energy that can knock out the oponent for three minutes.

Length: 50 meters
Wingspan: 80 meters
Weight: 12000 tons
:): :): :): :): :): :): :): :): Thanks Google!
Sorry for the attempted humor on a serious canon 5D thread:wink I must have too much time on my hands - should be taking more pictures!

[patch29]

andy have you taken your trip to the B+H VIP room to pick up your 5D? :ear

look here. (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-7886-8033)

[Andy]

andy have you taken your trip to the B+H VIP room to pick up your 5D? :ear

look here. (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-7886-8033)

yeah i see some stores are getting them yesterday, today...

here's the email i got from scott at tallyn's (www.tallyns.com) last night.. hopefully mine is on the way soon :D

http://williams.smugmug.com/photos/37982144-L.jpg

[patch29]

yeah i see some stores are getting them yesterday, today...

here's the email i got from scott at tallyn's (www.tallyns.com) last night.. hopefully mine is on the way soon :D



and you wonder why you don't have the keys to the B+H VIP room. :rolleyes :rofl

[Andy]

and you wonder why you don't have the keys to the B+H VIP room. :rolleyes :rofl

big stuff, like the 1Ds Mark II, 5D, etc i purchase from tallyn's, the nyc sales tax is killer man....

then again, if henry would serve up steak tips, or a french dip, and some espresso, i'd be all over it, tax be-damned!

[Andy]

tallyn's just called me, my 5d and 24-105L lens is in their store, it's being overnighted to me, and will be here tomorrow.

not that i'm excited or anything....

[ian408]

tallyn's just called me, my 5d and 24-105L lens is in their store, it's being overnighted to me, and will be here tomorrow.

not that i'm excited or anything....

So we'll see pitchas in the mornin' when we wakes?

Ian

[erich6]

tallyn's just called me, my 5d and 24-105L lens is in their store, it's being overnighted to me, and will be here tomorrow.

not that i'm excited or anything....
Looking forward to pictures! (With the camera...not of it please!) :D

Erich

[patch29]

So we'll see pitchas in the mornin' when we wakes?

Ian


and :ear :D

[Andy]

and :ear :D


linky (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=19503) i'm unpacking now ....

[patch29]

linky (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=19503) i'm unpacking now ....


Thank you, we were starting to worry. :lol3

[patch29]

I finally saw and could hold a 5D today, not sure what I expected, but it is a little larger than I expected, but still compact. The LCD on the back looks huge, I wonder how long it would take to get used to that. :D Now all I need is to find one I can test out to see if I like shooting with it.

[John Mueller]

Oh,Im sure youll like it
I do mine.:D

[ian408]

I finally saw and could hold a 5D today, not sure what I expected, but it is a little larger than I expected, but still compact. The LCD on the back looks huge, I wonder how long it would take to get used to that. :D Now all I need is to find one I can test out to see if I like shooting with it.

I was finally able to fondle one at the camera store the other day. Much nicer
than I'd expected.

Ian

[David_S85]

I was finally able to fondle one at the camera store the other day. Much nicer
than I'd expected.
Ian
I walked into my local camera store last week and inquired about the 5D. The guy said "Didn't you just buy a 20D a few months back?" I said "yes, in July."

"Is the viewfinder area that much nicer?" I asked. He replied that it was "sweet". "Can I look through one?" Again he said I could, only if I could pony up another $2K for the body. I told him "I wouldn't be buying one just because I looked through it" ...and that I didn't "have $2,000 to upgrade anyway just now anyway."

He then said "If I bring it out, and you do look through it, I'm telling you, you'll be buying one. If not today, then real real soon."

I then quickly turned my attention to the large size Giottos Rocket Air thing, and walked out only $10 lighter.

Man, that was close!

[Andy]

I walked into my local camera store last week and inquired about the 5D. The guy said "Didn't you just buy a 20D a few months back?" I said "yes, in July."

"Is the viewfinder area that much nicer?" I asked. He replied that it was "sweet". "Can I look through one?" Again he said I could, only if I could pony up another $2K for the body. I told him "I wouldn't be buying one just because I looked through it" ...and that I didn't "have $2,000 to upgrade anyway just now anyway."

He then said "If I bring it out, and you do look through it, I'm telling you, you'll be buying one. If not today, then real real soon."

I then quickly turned my attention to the large size Giottos Rocket Air thing, and walked out only $10 lighter.

Man, that was close!

It's true. Steve Cav is poisoned since looking thru a full-frame vf.