Who pays whom for event coverage?

[Snowgirl]

I've seen this topic discussed from various angles, but I still have questions. Some photographers pay the event organizers a fee or percentage for the privilege of being the 'official' shooter. Some events hire and pay their 'official' photographer a fee or some other compensation in kind (e.g. free display booth space; announcer advertising; program advertising etc.).

Having done events for four years now I'm getting to the point of wanting to run away. To do a horse show, for example, usually means being on site at LEAST 12 - 16 hours a day for 2 or more days. You're on your feet and running most of the time and there's a diminishing return in terms of print sales - particularly among the consistent winners (how many shots of you and old Dobbin with red ribbon does one diva need?).

This year I've decided that I must make at least SOME money on any shoot. So, when a show approached me recently I told them I had a flat day rate plus they had to provide the booth space and announcer ads in exchange for which I would take all of their presentation photos (for their sponsors) and provide the 8 x 10s plus the same photos in low-res for their association website. In turn, I would be the exclusive photographer and have the right to sell to the competitors etc. Haven't heard back from them. It was a low day rate ($100). Any comments?

[ChatKat]

Each type of event has it's own set of rules.

For the dog shows, they don't charge a day rate but they are official and the owners pay at the show to get their champion's photos taken. No choice there.

For the community events I have been shooting, I have been given advertising space from several publications and editorial articles. From each organization, I get program ad space, I am considered a sponsors of the event. From there I have negotiated various things like cards at each place setting, cards given out by the valet (swanky event), Tent cards at the tables and front page placement of my photographs with advertising inside.

I did one event where I contracted that I would set up a mini studio inside a venue and then before taking any photographs, the subjects would pay met to shoot them and then they received a package - like school photography only not a school. I also did some candid events and made them available to purchase.

There are various options in different situations. You have to find what fits.

All of that said I have also done my homework and know what I need to make daily from spec events. If I don't think that I will make that goal, then I have to look at the networking components of what I am shooting to see if it will be worthwhile in terms of other work.

[Snowgirl]

Each type of event has it's own set of rules.

For the dog shows, they don't charge a day rate but they are official and the owners pay at the show to get their champion's photos taken. No choice there.

For the community events I have been shooting, I have been given advertising space from several publications and editorial articles. From each organization, I get program ad space, I am considered a sponsors of the event. From there I have negotiated various things like cards at each place setting, cards given out by the valet (swanky event), Tent cards at the tables and front page placement of my photographs with advertising inside.

I did one event where I contracted that I would set up a mini studio inside a venue and then before taking any photographs, the subjects would pay met to shoot them and then they received a package - like school photography only not a school. I also did some candid events and made them available to purchase.

There are various options in different situations. You have to find what fits.

All of that said I have also done my homework and know what I need to make daily from spec events. If I don't think that I will make that goal, then I have to look at the networking components of what I am shooting to see if it will be worthwhile in terms of other work.

Good points. I also try to evaluate individual events based on what I truly need to make (to at least make it worthwhile to be there) and/or what other benefits might accrue.

In two weeks I'm doing a horsey trade show. In that case I have traded my PR skills (that was my first career) for a free booth. I'll be promoting my equine portraits. The event is donating its profits to the Childrens' Wish Foundation so, as a part of that theme, I'm going to raffle off an on-farm portrait session - and give the money to the Foundation. Again, good PR and potential new clients in the database :)

[johng]

I would say it really depends on how much you make on sales to competitors. You mentioned 12 hour days. You said your day rate would be $100. So far you'd be working for $8.33 an hour. Here's the reality of sports shooting - sometimes the revenue simply is NOT worth the time.

For example I just turned down the opportunity to be the event photographer for a local HS wrestling tournament. It just won't generate enough revenue to be worth the hassle. Of course awrestling tournament is a totally different thing than the event you're talking about. But, my point is - while I enjoy shooting wrestling, I recognized the situation as a waste of time for the amount of money I was going to make. 12 hours a day for 2 days is a lot of time. Coming out of that with $400-500 might be worth it to some but for me, my weekends are more valuable than that.

[PupWeb]

1.)Offer something different than a what people can get in their own snapshot. Sure you are a pro and know all about exposure, tonal range, composition etc. etc.. But most people will be happy with their free snapshots.

You do this by adding custom borders, mag covers etc. Like the shots theme parks sale after the coaster.

2.)Print at the event in close to real time. Stick to one print size 4x6 and accept only cash (it's quicker and use the print as a receipt). Get several affordable 4x6 photo printers. Canon Selpie, Epson Charm.

3.)Take orders for larger prints and other products

4.)Print at the event in close to real time. Product in hand beats 3 on the web.

5.)Print at the event in close to real time. Word gets out as people show their friends. Hey that is so neat, I want one of my.......Once they see there ...... they will buy atleast 3 prints.


Tried giving cards with a url to my online galleries = low sales.

Printing at the same type of event = Big Surprise
For example This Friday we set up at a very small awards event my sons where going to be at anyway, only 28 people getting awards. My wife and I set up 30 min before.
Made $130 cash at the 1 hour event and have about another $130 or so in orders. Big seller was the mag style cover with the recipient name and date of event.

Biggest problem....not enough printers to get the product out. People didn't want to wait in line. It was disheartening when I saw all those people brake from the line and watch my money walk out the door. Luckily most have emailed me with orders. But still missed opportunity.

There is more involved though. The devil is in the details. Getting photos ready for print real time is challenging. Also I only print once I have a sale so their is little waste but there is a process to this.

I will write more about my workflow as I get better at it and work out some of the kinks.

-David

[Snowgirl]

1.)Offer something different than a what people can get in their own snapshot. Sure you are a pro and know all about exposure, tonal range, composition etc. etc.. But most people will be happy with their free snapshots.

You do this by adding custom borders, mag covers etc. Like the shots theme parks sale after the coaster.

2.)Print at the event in close to real time. Stick to one print size 4x6 and accept only cash (it's quicker and use the print as a receipt). Get several affordable 4x6 photo printers. Canon Selpie, Epson Charm.

3.)Take orders for larger prints and other products

4.)Print at the event in close to real time. Product in hand beats 3 on the web.

5.)Print at the event in close to real time. Word gets out as people show their friends. Hey that is so neat, I want one of my.......Once they see there ...... they will buy atleast 3 prints.


Tried giving cards with a url to my online galleries = low sales.

Printing at the same type of event = Big Surprise
For example This Friday we set up at a very small awards event my sons where going to be at anyway, only 28 people getting awards. My wife and I set up 30 min before.
Made $130 cash at the 1 hour event and have about another $130 or so in orders. Big seller was the mag style cover with the recipient name and date of event.

Biggest problem....not enough printers to get the product out. People didn't want to wait in line. It was disheartening when I saw all those people brake from the line and watch my money walk out the door. Luckily most have emailed me with orders. But still missed opportunity.

There is more involved though the devil is in the details. Getting photos ready for print real time is challenging. Also I only print once I have a sale so their is little waste.

I will write more about my workflow as aI get better at it and work out some of the kinks.

-David

I so agree that printing on site in close-to-real-time is ideal Unfortunately, I'm a one-woman show at the moment so that's a bit tricky. I did have "office help" at one event last year and that helped with sales - although still not high enough to justify the time spent and the wage paid to the helper.

The $100 a day basically just covers my travel expenses and meals to be on-site. The only 'profit' per se is actual photo sales.

I'm still interested to see how the workflow goes for your idea, David, and also am looking at options for myself as well. Thanks a lot for your comments.

[Rocketman766]

While I enjoy reading other's ideas and info on how to increase sales, what to do different, how to get it done, workflow, etc., etc...... did this thread stray from the original question? Maybe I just simply misread the question.

In my very very short time in event coverage, I have been the one paying the organization each time. Some require a flat fee and the others request a percentage of sales.

I will continue to watch this and all other threads (and on other forums) dealing with onsite event coverage as I am trying to learn as much as possible.
Lance.

[Snowgirl]

For you Snowgirl I would suggest that you will be shooting yourself in the foot to try and do on site printing. Stick to on-site ordering until you at least have another helper and then think about it again pretty hard.
You make money selling not printing.
There is no way you are going to be able to shoot, download, Cull and run the software to show the images, sell and then print and deliver in any way near a timely manner on your own so don't even try.

I made the mistake early in my event photography endeavors of marketing the delivery, not the photograph and excitement, emotion, memory etc people were really buying them for.
I have 4 other people with me when I do events so I do print on site but I now focus on the Picture, not how I deliver it.

I would never even contemplate doing an event unless going into it I was confident I would make some decent money.
I learned many years ago that I can earn nothing sitting on my butt at home in a comfy chair in front of the TV, I do not have to go out and work hard for 12 hours to make nothing. :dunno

If you don't think you are going to make money doing an event, Don't do it. Not unless you give up the idea of it doing as a business and are happy to do it for fun alone.

Good points. Thank you. Even at the one event where I had (paid) help, her job was to download, show images and take orders - and that did help ramp up sales - but still not to the point where it was worthwhile on an hourly basis for sure. I think one thing that happens (and these are horse shows, by the way) is that after a while, Suzy Sunshine has lots of pictures of herself and her horse so they no longer mean anything - unless it's a very unique shot (tricky in a dressage environment in a poorly lit indoor arena).

Thanks so much for the thoughtful comments.

[Snowgirl]

While I enjoy reading other's ideas and info on how to increase sales, what to do different, how to get it done, workflow, etc., etc...... did this thread stray from the original question? Maybe I just simply misread the question.

In my very very short time in event coverage, I have been the one paying the organization each time. Some require a flat fee and the others request a percentage of sales.

I will continue to watch this and all other threads (and on other forums) dealing with onsite event coverage as I am trying to learn as much as possible.
Lance.

True - we did digress from my original question.

In my area there is a trend toward either bartering between organizers and photographers (e.g. the free booth space etc.) or some token payment to the photographer to at least help offset some expenses - in return for which the organizers receive a certain number of images - either prints and/or on CD - usually presentation shots for their sponsors' thank you notes.

Until recently the photographers took all the risk and I even had some show organizers who would whip out with their P&S cameras to grab presentation shots rather than buy from me - how rude is THAT? That's why I've gone to the - you pay me a fixed fee to be here and I'll give you X shots - more available for purchase at additional cost to the show. If they don't want to go for it, I will no longer be shooting their events. Like Glort - I may as well stay home and sip a cool beer in the shade or take more portraits of my dog (an Aussie, by the way).

[fredjclaus]

What about the types of events that accept a photographer be it paid or you pay them? I have seen many events such as golf tournaments for non-profits, Chamber of Commerce Award ceremonies, and even an upcoming benefit for two children who lost their mother. Do non-profit benefit fundraisers generally pay for an event photographer, or do they look for you to donate your services?

[Snowgirl]

Brilliant and detailed response Glort. Thanks - and I concur 100%.

After losing money for ages, this is my year to make a profit - or at least not lose. Therefore, I will no longer shoot at events where there's a snowball's chance in hell of making any money.

I'm off to an equine expo on the 23rd. Since a part of my business is PR and Media Relations (going back to 25 years in the industry), I've traded those services to the organizers for a free booth, free logo on the website etc. The attendees at the expo will be both show organizers and competitors. In addition to showcasing my work, I'll be offering a new "special". A pre-book package for competitors. i.e. You pay me $X up front to ensure that I attend (show name) and shoot your ride. I haven't work the details out yet, but I know that with what I have in mind I will need a minimum of 10 pre-bookings to make it worthwhile to show up.

For the competitors, the benefit is that they KNOW I'll have shots of their ride for them. Normally, if you're shooting the whole show, it's hit or miss to get shots of everyone - particularly good or usable shots.

I'll let you know how it flies (or not).

No - I will not pay for the privilege of losing money and spending time. It has to be expense-free to me (i.e. the small day rate to cover travel and meals) AND have some other 'perks' (free booth, advertising etc.) or I will go out and shoot some lovely landscapes on my own time. Or spend time with my animals, husband (no no - he's not an 'animal') and friends!

[PupWeb]

I don't think this topic Strayed, it's about making money. If Snowgirl was making money she wouldn't worry about changing her current business plan.

Glort: The size of the pint has nothing to do with quality. The trend has been moving away from larger print sizes to smaller prints that can scrapbook and also digital delivery is going to be the future so get ready(those digital frames are getting bigger and cheaper). Adding the border is done in less than 5 seconds and can be done conmpletely automated. Adding personal info of the event to the border takes longer about 15 seconds but is not done until a sale.

Things to emphasize again:
You have to offer something they can't get with their P&S. I am not familiar with horse events but try to put yourself in Jane Does shoes, probobly the one stealing your shots.
What would make them buy my print?

Also I price to encourage multiple sales like $7.00 for one 4 x 6 and $4.00 for duplicates. People have told me they would pay up to $15 for a 4X6, depends on your market. If you get the first part right people will buy.

Your biggest problem will be handling the orders. That is a big kink I am working on currently.

I do bring my own lighting b/c that is half the battle to a great shot. These are strobes with unbrellas (what ever you need for the subject matter)alienbees radios to trigger. No one steals my shots...this way. Also prearrange this with the event coordinator. When people see your mobile studio they are curious about getting their photo and seeing how they look.

I have people all the time tell me at first they are not interested b/c I took my own or I have it on video and end up buying prints.

Just think about how to offer something the P&S'r can't do. Jane Doe has a nice Powershot and is pretty good at using Google Picasa, what can't she do that I can?

[PupWeb]

I'm in a totally different ballpark to most here because Event photography in oz, particularly onsite printing particularly for sports is still a .......
YOURSELF that the event will be a success rather than take the organizers word for it. If you have any doubts, put them to the test by at least sharing the risk such as them making up a shortfall in sales to your minimum rate and if they won't come at that, I walk away.

Awesome advice Glort!

[Snowgirl]

You guys are awesome! Glort - such detailed and thoughtful replies. Ditto PupWeb - good comments and suggestions.

Lighting at a horse show is a problem - there's no static set-up; it's moving targets, normally in a poorly lit arena (poorly lit for photography purposes, I mean). And there may be an issue using any kind of flash set-up, even remote. If a flash caused a horse to spook, someone could get seriously hurt - and the photographer banned quickly :(

I'm going to a trade show next week-end (equine) and many show organizers AND competitors will be there. i've printed off 20 x 30 posters of some of my best shots for display and will be running a digital slide show on a 40" monitor as well. One of the things I'm going to try is "personal paparazzi" - i.e. pre-book me (and pay a virtually non-refundable 50% deposit up front) and I'll shoot YOUR rides. This should work well for both dressage and reining, and would also work for show jumping. Could be done in pleasure and halter classes but BORING.

I'm offering 3 packages - different combinations of prints in each and different numbers of 'rides' per day - and of course they can always buy other prints / sizes / finishes if they wish. I'll see what kind of response I get from the idea.

[Snowgirl]

I think The pre-pay model is an excellent one!
It allows you to cover more rings and shoot the people that want pics instead of wasting your time busily shooting the ones that don't.

My problem is with it that I can't get my head around an efficient way of getting the people to sign up at the events I do which are always bit of a bun fight at the start. I'll have to work on it but because I think I could improve my sales using this method.

Trade shows are Gold mines if you work them right.


Would you care to tell us your packages so we can tear them apart? :D

YOU are a gold mine of help. Thank you so much.
Sure, I'll fess up to my packages (so far - they're a work in progress before show season actually starts in May - launched at another trade show the first week-end).

My theme is 'hire your personal Paparazzi' and, at the moment I'm offering 3 packages - aimed at either Reiners or Dressage Riders - other packages to be developed.

"Walk" includes shooting 2 rides on one day, rider to receive 2 5x7 prints and 10 4x6 prints for $80.

"Trot" includes 2 rides per day on 2 days, 1 8x10, 4 5x7 and 10 4x6 prints for $140

"Canter" includes 4 rides per day over 2 days, 2 8x10, 4 5x7 and 10 4x6 prints for $180

Obviously other sizes are available at additional cost :) Suggestions? Critiques? I also like the idea of pre-book and get a credit toward a big print. May try to incorporate that somehow as well.

[Snowgirl]

I think I have illustrated my bias with Smaller print Sizes but that aside, I find it a bit hard to come to grips with multiple print sizes in this market having never done it.


I have considered making it one or two large prints, but a lot of people use them for Gramma gifts or scrapbooking.

I like the Theme of your promotion, I think it will strike a good chord with the riders.

Thanks. I think it will work in that respect - once I get the packages fine tuned.


I'm not sure if I have this right but your selling your services to no particular show and hoping you get 10 bookings per show to make it worthwhile?
If that is the case, Have you thought how you are going to get that number if you don't get them through the show?
I don't know how many riders you get at the shows you do but that would be an ask for the ones I do in that I'm likely to bookings for 10 different shows and to get 10 for each one would be a feat I think. Might be different for the numbers you get.

Also, in your multiple day shoots, are these one show or can they use them over multiple shows? I'd certainly be making them 1 only and also limiting the area you cover although that could limit the bookings you get when they could be worthwhile for major shows. Perhaps drawing up a list of the shows you are going to cover could be worth while.

My flyer actually specifies the shows I'll be covering. Most of the shows are 2- or 3-day events and the flyer specifies (in the case of 2-day shoots) that it's 2 days at one of the specified shows. Now, for an EXORBIANT price I'd be HAPPY to be someone's exclusive Paparazzi for a full day :ivar

I think your package pricing is good, it's elevated to my averages ( if they have any relevance at all) but they represent good return for your efforts and that's where you want to be.

The only suggestion I would make given my bias to print size's is to consider dropping at very least the 6x4's and maybe put the images on CD. Cheaper and easier for you and there are benefits you can sell to the clients.

Another package that may be worth considering if you have any demand for them is an all up coverage where you put all the shots taken on the day on disk. CD's are half my sales so may have some appeal to your clients as well.

Also an excellent suggestion. Thanks.:clap

[Snowgirl]

Glad to hear you have the shows Specified. I think that is the right way to go and could save a lot of hassel.

Oh YEAH!

On the subject of Day shoots, I would make that known as well. It's not going to confuse any of your other packages and you might just get a Booking on it. If you get one this year, I'm sure You'll be plenty happy.

I learned some time back that if you want to be seen as the best, You have to Offer the premium service for PR value even if no on takes you up on it for a while.

Something a bunch of my clients were talking to me about last year was a set up group shoot. One lady in the club has a very nice arena set up on her property and was asking me about coming out there to shoot her and her daughter where I could set the Jumps up and stand precisely where I wanted to get the perfect pics.

A friend Chimed in that she would love to come out and do the same to make it more worth my while and about 5 minutes later there was excited talk with a group of about 6 parents all coming out and after I shot them Jumping, I could do some Mini glamor shoots in the old barn on the property of the mothers. That could easy be a day worth $2k for my efforts so I'm going to keep pushing that idea in the right direction.

You could mention a similar deal where they hire you for you day rate and split the cost between them and you'll give them all the pics on CD or whatever prints you think appropriate.
As a non Show day, A couple of these this year would also bump things along nicely.

If you can get some cheap basic B/w flyers printed, it may be worth considering offering this as a separate coverage in addition to the shows?

Yet another good idea. Thank you! I made a decision that this WOULD be the year I finally make some money at this...

Last year I took a course in equine photography which was a huge help (skill-wise) and my practice shoots for that involved two of my riding students and their horses. They live on a gorgeous farm with views to die for so it was obviously a huge sacrifice to go there for a day and shoot with them:rofl

They ended up buying several prints for themselves and as Christmas gifts for grandparents etc. The grandmother went to Germany to visit family and took some of her prints with her - for other family members to drool over - and that resulted in a few more orders. Yay! So, there's hope...:bow

[Mox]

Great discussion!

I have a question about the idea of being someone's personal paparazzi for the day at a show. I've done this for a friend (for free) at a 3 day event without issue, but I got chased off a fence by the show photographer at a hunter show.

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.

[johng]

I have a question about the idea of being someone's personal paparazzi for the day. I've done this for a friend (for free) at a 3 day event without issue, but I got chased off a fence by the show photographer at a hunter show.

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.

You absolutely can run into issues. Any event held on private land or where tickets are purchased can enter into a contract with a photographer to ensure they are the only photographer allowed to do commercial photography. They can even go so far as to enforce camera restrictions. The rules change when there is controlled entry (i.e. even when someone is using say community fairgrounds for a show with paid admission). The "your on public property" argument doesn't quite hold up. The law isn't that simple. I can't speak to whether there is a market for what you want to do, and unless a photographer has explicit language in their contract that prevents you from doing what you're doing you'd be on solid ground. But they absolutely COULD have that type of language. So, my recommendation is if you wanted to do that type of thing you need to contact the venue/organization putting on the event and finding out what their contract situation is with an event photographer.

[mercphoto]

Is there an issue with covering someone for pay at a show with a contracted "official photographer?" It's a service I'd love to offer and that I think there's a market for, but I don't want to step on toes.
If someone is contracted as the official photographer for an event then you won't be able to shoot there.

[Snowgirl]

If someone is contracted as the official photographer for an event then you won't be able to shoot there.

What Glort said.

The laws here (in Canada) are similar to those in Oz.

Now, that said, it's a small community and good relationships are important, including with show organizers, competitors and other photographers.

So, what I will do (IF I am successful in selling the Personal Paparazza thing) is - if I am the official show photographer - that's no problem. I just guarantee to capture the contracting rider's turns whereas normally I might not get 100% of the rides.

If I am not the official photographer, then I will go to whomever that is and explain what I'm doing - and that I'm not selling to anyone else other than my client (i.e. not taking sales away from the official photog.). Hopefully the other photographer would be similarly considerate of me.

The other thing is - the official photographer is the only one allowed INSIDE the competition ring. So, if I'm not the official shooter, I'm restricted to ring-side shots only. Obviously I would have to ensure that my client was aware of that. Who knows - the client might ALSO buy some in-ring shots from the other photographer.

On the legal issue side - Glort is again a wealth of wisdom. We are in the midst of a legal dispute with a neighbour regarding property usage. I have been documenting what the neighbour is doing by taking photographs showing before and after the rape of the land. The neighbour took offense and called me at 8 o'clock one Sunday morning to rip me a new a*shole verbally and threatened to sue me.

Discretion being the better course, I said nothing. But, I did consult with my lawyer who concurred that the neighbour can not sue me just for taking the pictures - even if they're used as evidence in court - UNLESS I trespassed on her property to take them (I didn't and was VERY careful about that) or if I sold them without a signed model / property release (which obviously I wouldn't). Yay!!

Glort's right. You need to KNOW your rights and obligations.:deal

[johng]

snowgirl - there is a difference between the right to take a photo from your property and the right to take and sell photos at a private event. Again, laws may be different in Canada. But here in the US, the event absolutely can enter into a contract granting rights to be the sole point-of-sale for event participants. That doesn't mean a person can't take a photo. But it means that if tthe person takes and sells that photo it has potential to start a legal chain of events / lawsuits. Your situation of taking photos in your back yard is NOT the same thing. This topic is about whether or not a legal contract CAN exist between an event and photographer.

My advice to the OP - consult a lawyer familiar with this type of contract law and it's relation to photography.

[johng]

and one other note - almost every lawsuit will cost you money to defend. So even if a case is ruled in your favor, you still lose out if you have to go through. So, you're still on your best footing by dealing with the event / venue coordinators and finding out who the official photographer is and talking with them BEFORE the event. As snowgirl mentioned they may not have an issue with it. But if they do, I wouldn't recommend ignoring them and doing it anyway.

[Mox]

snowgirl - there is a difference between the right to take a photo from your property and the right to take and sell photos at a private event. Again, laws may be different in Canada. But here in the US, the event absolutely can enter into a contract granting rights to be the sole point-of-sale for event participants. That doesn't mean a person can't take a photo. But it means that if tthe person takes and sells that photo it has potential to start a legal chain of events / lawsuits. Your situation of taking photos in your back yard is NOT the same thing. This topic is about whether or not a legal contract CAN exist between an event and photographer.

My advice to the OP - consult a lawyer familiar with this type of contract law and it's relation to photography.

This is my understanding of US event contracts, as well. Thank you all for the additional input.

[Snowgirl]

snowgirl - This topic is about whether or not a legal contract CAN exist between an event and photographer.

Actually, this topic began about who pays whom - the event or the photographer - and it kind of morphed a bit.

It's a situation that also requires tact and sensitivity when there are two photographers - one official and one contracted by a private client who happens to be a competitor. It can be done - carefully.

[Snowgirl]

Going back a step, only 3 days to go to your Show Snow.

How are the preparations going so far? Have you sorted out your coverages and got all your literature printed?

Be sure to take lots of pics of your setup to show us and let us know how you go with it.

Thanks. It's getting very hectic right now and Saturday will be a zoo! I'm also under contract to the trade show to handle their PR and as such have been heavily promoting the show both in the media to the general public and through private newsletters and other publications to a targeted audience or horse owners of all disciplines. If the weather holds (it's winter here) we should have a phenomenal turnout. I will take pictures and will let everyone know what response, if any, I get to my idea from horse owners.

[cdonovan]

If someone is contracted as the official photographer for an event then you won't be able to shoot there.

x2.

Bottom line is, if there is an official appointed for the show, and participants pay anyone other than the official for pictures, that is wrong, regardless of where the transaction is made. (before, during, after the show) :deal

If the official is expected to let another photographer come in, where does it stop? If the exception is made because a photographer has made a deal with someone, why shouldn't then on that merit, any photographer be allowed in to shoot? So now, instead of the original photographer, you have a whole line up of folks shooting. Does that still seem "fair"?

The other thing is - the official photographer is the only one allowed INSIDE the competition ring. So, if I'm not the official shooter, I'm restricted to ring-side shots only. Obviously I would have to ensure that my client was aware of that. Who knows - the client might ALSO buy some in-ring shots from the other photographer.


Being inside or outside of the ring is neither here nor there, especially in dressage and reining, where of course, even the official is not allowed in the ring.

Without it being a legal issue, it goes against ethical business practices. Do you see Home depot employees inside Lowes hounding them to shop with them? No of course not. Both are allowed a level playing field when it comes to advertising and asking for the sale, but when the customer has made their decision, or in the instance of event photography, the committee has hired an official, you move on and try to make sales with the next customer/event.

[johng]

Without it being a legal issue, it goes against ethical business practices. Do you see Home depot employees inside Lowes hounding them to shop with them? No of course not. Both are allowed a level playing field when it comes to advertising and asking for the sale, but when the customer has made their decision, or in the instance of event photography, the committee has hired an official, you move on and try to make sales with the next customer/event.

Sadly, this is often a true case - people want to do whatever they can get away with. As a business person you cannot rely on people to be respectful and ethical. That is why it is essential you have a contract with the organizations. Enforcement of restrictions in that contract should be on the shoulders of the event, not the photographer. I've had several - mostly pleasant - discussions with other photogs at events where there was a contract. In all but one case the pleasant conversation was enough. In the other case, after speaking with the non contracted photographer I spoke to the event staff and had them handle the situation. That's how business works. No need for threats, escalated blood pressure or anything else. That's why you have contracts. Because there are those rare people who don't respect these contracts and still believe they are entitled to do whatever they want. In those cases, the event staff handles it. Now, the flip side is - if you didn't do your part and don't have a good contract in place then it's equally shame on you. You don't have much of a leg to stand on to get the event to stop the other photographer from poaching. But again - if you're the event shooter you need to make a business decision when another shooter is there - case in point - I had a contract to shoot a HS swim meet for sale to participants. Another photog showed up and was shooting - we spoke. He was under contract to shoot for the school - his sales were not going to be print sales but just part of his contract to provide yearbook photos. His market and my market were completely different so there was no issue.

[johng]

So how exactly would this be any different to someone with a contract with a specific rider shooting just them at an event where there was another contracted shooter?

They would not be selling to anyone other than the person they had the arrangement with whom having that arrangement would be at best unlikely to buy anything if the contracted shooter especially if they caused them problems in getting what they had already paid for. :rolleyes

It depends on the situation. Part of that situation could involve a discussion with the customer explaining how the contract existed for a long period of time and legitimte photography businesses are aware such contracts exist. And legitimate businesses contact the event and event photog ahead of time. And I'm terribly sorry your photographer acted in a manner contrary to acceptable professional standards - I'd be happy to provide you a discount but I suggest you get a refund from the other photographer as they promised you a service they were not able to deliver. It's very unfortunate that there are people in every business who are unethical.

That's one possible scenario - because in this case it was the 'other guy' who did not follow acceptable professional practices - at least acceptable professional practices in the United States. I can't speak to other countries.

Now - again, things can be different too - a lot depends on the photographer in question. If they come off as arogant then I'll probably be less likely to cut them a break. If they're pleasant and professional then it may not be a problem. BUT, it is also a business decision that sets bad precedant too. So that weighs in. Otherwise next year photographers bring "uncle joe" to get free shots. Or next year said photographer is shooting 3 people instead of one. Of course if the photorapher wishes to complain they have a simple remedy - win the contract themselves.

In the end though - that's why it's important to have the event deal with the photographer. Why? Firist, as the photog you already have a job to do. Second, that's the whole point of a contract - you want the problem to be the event's not yours. Third, if the poacher makes a stink it reflects badly on THEM. People don't like to do business with partners that cause headaches. If you're an athlete and the guy you hired is having an argument with event staff that's a bit embarassing. Certainly if said poacher wants to win the contract next year it won't look to good when reminded what a stink they made.

At the end of the day - respect goes a long way. But if a person is not going to have respect for your contract the best approach is to handle it professionally - just like any other business.

[cdonovan]

So how exactly would this be any different to someone with a contract with a specific rider shooting just them at an event where there was another contracted shooter?

It's different because there was no sale to his clients. The shooter was contracted for yearbook pictures, not to market and sell to the swimmers, exactly the same scenario as snowgirl is contracted to do the PR work for the show facility, but has not been appointed OP for the show.

They would not be selling to anyone other than the person they had the arrangement with whom having that arrangement would be at best unlikely to buy anything if the contracted shooter especially if they caused them problems in getting what they had already paid for.

That's it, as snowgirl says, she's going to arrive at the event and ask/tell the photographer at that time what she is going to be doing. If a contract is in place, the OP does have the right to have them removed from the grounds, if in fact, the agreement states so. So waiting until arrival at the show grounds to ask permission potentially leaves her in a very bad spot with her clients. If she's not authorized to shoot, how will she get the shots? :deal That is not the fault of the OP, and the OP has no obligation to allow the poacher access to the event.


Sorry, that and several other arguments are both silly and impractical.
No one in this scenario is hunting down anyone here or interfering with their work or sales potential.

Sorry, common sense, good business morals and ethics are NOT silly and impractical. Yes, if someone is selling their photography services at an event where there IS an official photographer, that is interfering, that is taking money out of the pocket of the OP.


Some people sure are touchy and over protective to what they see is their exclusive legal and moral rights.

Some people are touchy, with good right, when it comes to maximizing their potential income at an event where they have been contracted to work. Walking in and taking even one penny from that photographer is WRONG.

Next thing will be that some shooters want ALL camera's banned from their " Contracted" events except theirs. I bet that will go down a treat with the parents. :rolleyes

Actually, have you ever been to a major sporting event or concert? I remember a time when going to one of these events meant that the organizers had the right to take away photography equipment if you chose to bring it. I was actually stopped going to a Dallas Stars game, they searched my camera bag and confiscated my long lens. I had no intention of selling anything, but the equipment was there, they had to eliminate the potential. I followed at least one instance in the last few years at a National Arabian show where the photographer/show organizers eliminated poachers by restricting the length of lens that was allowed in the building. So you see this is not unheard of, and not dreamt up by some paranoid event photographer.

[cdonovan]

It depends on the situation. Part of that situation could involve a discussion with the customer explaining how the contract existed for a long period of time and legitimte photography businesses are aware such contracts exist. And legitimate businesses contact the event and event photog ahead of time. And I'm terribly sorry your photographer acted in a manner contrary to acceptable professional standards - I'd be happy to provide you a discount but I suggest you get a refund from the other photographer as they promised you a service they were not able to deliver. It's very unfortunate that there are people in every business who are unethical.

That's one possible scenario - because in this case it was the 'other guy' who did not follow acceptable professional practices - at least acceptable professional practices in the United States. I can't speak to other countries.

Now - again, things can be different too - a lot depends on the photographer in question. If they come off as arogant then I'll probably be less likely to cut them a break. If they're pleasant and professional then it may not be a problem. BUT, it is also a business decision that sets bad precedant too. So that weighs in. Otherwise next year photographers bring "uncle joe" to get free shots. Or next year said photographer is shooting 3 people instead of one. Of course if the photorapher wishes to complain they have a simple remedy - win the contract themselves.

In the end though - that's why it's important to have the event deal with the photographer. Why? Firist, as the photog you already have a job to do. Second, that's the whole point of a contract - you want the problem to be the event's not yours. Third, if the poacher makes a stink it reflects badly on THEM. People don't like to do business with partners that cause headaches. If you're an athlete and the guy you hired is having an argument with event staff that's a bit embarassing. Certainly if said poacher wants to win the contract next year it won't look to good when reminded what a stink they made.

At the end of the day - respect goes a long way. But if a person is not going to have respect for your contract the best approach is to handle it professionally - just like any other business.

Right ON.:thumb

[mercphoto]

Some people sure are touchy and over protective to what they see is their exclusive legal and moral rights.
I really, really don't understand your problem at all. If someone has a contract to be an exclusive photographer for a particular event then they really truly do have a legal right.

[mercphoto]

Well I always think that a rule, idea or practice cuts two ways. If the shooter contracted to the event has a good right to look after their interests and maximize their potential income, does the shooter contracted to the Rider that hired them not have the same good right to look after their potential income as well???
But the rider does not have the *right* to bring in a contractor to the event. Therein lies the problem that you don't seem to comprehend. Its not their event, its not their grounds. The rules are set by the organizer, not the participants.

[mercphoto]

I have only been at this game 6 months
Can I respectfully suggest that those giving you advice here have been at this game far longer than you and might actually know something you haven't figured out yet?

[johng]

If it's different there, then the private shooter would have to abide by that the same as if the situation occurred here, the contracted shooter would also have to abide by the laws of the land and what the organizers dreamt up would be of little consequence.

Glort - welcome to business. Events are about business. Promoters don't put on events out of pure good will. It's business. And again as I mentioned at the beginning of this aspect of the discussion - events are almost always PRIVATE even if public space is leased. As such they can set rules - they can set dress code rules if they wish. They can set rules regarding vending (and almost always do control vending because it's lucrative), they can set restrictions about all sorts of things because the LAW OF THE LAND allows them to do so. They can say "you must be a citizen of this state to compete" - and guess what? People that want to compete have to follow those guidelines. Why? Because it is a private event - just because something is open to the public to watch does not mean it is something that occurs in the public domain.

And why do more and more restrictions get added? Two reasons - one, to prevent problems and two to protect revenue. Because events are about business.

Now, as you say - it will be interesting to see if someone from Canada can speak up and say whether Canadian law allows private organizations to set up their own rules for participation and attendance. I would be very surpised if organizations don't have that right there.

[cdonovan]

I can't fathom your argument.
Its exactly the same. A personally hired shooter would not be there to sell to the contracted shooters clients.
As for the PR thing, I get the impression you have a lot to learn about how the business world works. If she is helping them out with one thing and has built a rapport with the organizers ( smart move) then they are going to look after the person that helps them and anyone that don't like it is only going to alienate themselves.




Hmm, again with the personal references. I have no idea if there is something behind the scenes going on in your part of the world I have no knowledge of but it seems you have some issues that are influencing or motivating your position on the subject.

You state the contracted photographer has the right to remove them from the grounds, Again, going back over what I have already said, My question is DO THEY??
I mean legally and in written verifiable law where Snow ( as she seems your example of prefrance) resides? Here in Oz you could stop them SELLING pics ON SITE but you couldn't stop them. That is the reality of the law. Call the cops and they won't come because the person is doing nothing wrong. Lay a hand on the person or interfere with them going about their legal business and that is a criminal offense and they will come and take you away and charge you. No question.

Now it may well be different in your part of the world but as I said before, you need to verify that rather than stating your impression, desire or belief of the law when in fact it is something different.
If it is the law then Snow would be SOL. If she waits till she gets to the show without finding out her legal rights and then takes the word of someone that wants to invent laws that don't exist to protect their self interests, then I would agree, they are in a very bad position and deserve to be suckered for not paying due diligence to protecting their own interests.

If the law is there as it is here, then a person could bleat and whinge and carry on all they like about ethics and morals and all that self serving guff but I am going to be doing what I am legally entitled to do while you are getting all upset and probably missing the shots you should be getting.
I HAVE done it before and I will do what I am legally allowed to do again.
If someone doesn't like it because they want to make up the rules as to what suits their agenda's, well good luck to you.

In fact of law, the "OP" would have every obligation to allow the Poacher ( Snow again??) access to the event because to stop them would be breaking the law and render them liable to criminal charges if they tried to stop them (her?)



But this is YOUR interpretation based apparently on fears and insecurities YOU have. It may not be the Law of the land or have any basis other than what you feel is the way you want things to be.

If I was to suggest someone break the law, the do good moralists would be all over me like a rash. Why is it then when I advocate obeying the law and doing what you are legally entitled to do within it, people are still getting upset? Is the suggestion that obeying the law is immoral or unethical? :scratch

In the case we are talking about here, a Shooter ( Snow or I in this case, myself ( I'm not just going to let her take all the infamy ! :wink)) were to be shooting a competitor on the " Personal appparazzi" concept, then their photographic services would have been pre-sold before the event so they would NOT be selling them at the event at all which would appear by your own definition to be acceptable and within the moral and ethical standards you appear to apply here.




Well I always think that a rule, idea or practice cuts two ways. If the shooter contracted to the event has a good right to look after their interests and maximize their potential income, does the shooter contracted to the Rider that hired them not have the same good right to look after their potential income as well???
I'll tell you this much, I have no problem in looking after my rights and maximizing my earning potential and if someone has issue with that, go talk to the people whom make the laws you don't like because talking to me about it is a waste of breath.

Again, no one would be taking one penny from anyone.
You are working on the basis that if the Shooter ( Snow) wasn't there, the contracted shooter would make a definite and sure sale to them.... and on that assumption, every single other rider at the event as well.
I have only been at this game 6 months and I'm a long way from your part of the world, but in my experience so far, I'm lucky to sell to 25% of the riders at any given event. If you are selling to every rider every time, You better give me your hourly consultation rate because I'm really interested in learning your secrets.

If I were selling to every rider every event, I sure as heck wouldn't be worried about 1 shooter covering one rider that wasn't going to buy from me. I would probably be busy doing a deal with them to help me shoot all these other people so I got a chance to go to the bathroom and get a drink now and then!



I'm sorry, we seem to be talking about different things here. I am referring to the local, mainly amateur club shows who I made the presumption are the people likely to hire a private Paparazzi ( AKA, SNOW).
I agree that major sporting events and concerts are going to be different but that is not what I was under the impression we were talking about here.
In the case of these shows where the competitors are amateurs and with a high percentage of kids comprising the entries of an event, I absoloutley believe it would be a very paranoid and none to smart shooter that would dream up such an idea.

Where I come from, if parents were told they couldn't take pics of their own kids at these events, even the ones that didn't have camera's would pack up and demand an refund from the organizers just on the principle of the matter.

The bottom line here is that every person and every shooter is allowed to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong within the boundaries of the law as far as ethics, principals and all those other lofty notations are concerned.
The people who don't share the ideals of others don't get to force everyone else to their outlook, they have to learn tolerance and to recognize in the free world that's what happens.

Should some people be proactive and original in their business ideas and take advantage of all the opportunities that are legally available to them, then I don't see that as anything other than commendable.
If the other people want to place their financial success on contracts and payments to 3rd parties instead of ensuring they offer an attractive, competitive product that will stand on it's won merit, then that too is their decision and they are perfectly entitled to it. :andy

Again, for their own protection and benefit, I encourage EVERYONE to take the time to find out the laws as they apply to them in their area and in so doing be in a position of power and knowledge to protect and benefit their own interests.
To no know what the law is and allows you to do or not do is simply setting yourself up for a big mistake. It would also be wise as far as I can see to not only find out the law but what these contracts actually do and don't entitle a person to do.
I would suggest they have no where near the authority many give them automatic credit for.


Glort I respectfully disagree to all of your arguements. Your statements show exactly what you don't understand, and perhaps don't care to understand about good business practices, and all the typing in the world won't change it if you are not open to not only reading it, but seeing it for it's value.
You have a lot to learn about event/show photography, ethics and business morals. You might want to be more careful giving out information about a subject you have very little knowledge about yourself.

Anyone can out maneuver their competition, especially when you pull away from good judgement. Harming someone or their equipment, suing or even the threat to sue, is not a way in which I will conduct my business. My business model is driven by what helps me to sleep each night. I've lived long enough to know that there are many people out there that don't care or have values, morals, and ethics to guide them to make the proper decisions in their day to day life, let alone their business. I don't care to be brought down by people that play their games like that in life, nor will I in business.

[johng]

Glort - yep, I'm talking amateur events. 8-12 year olds. Someone has a soccer tournament on municipal (city owned) fields, they are still allowed by law in the United States to set rules for those that participate and attend. Again, you don't have to like it but that doesn't change the fact the law allows them to set rules. They absolutely can set rules that disallow DSLR cameras. They absolutely can set rules about who is allowed to sell photos and who is allowed field access. Again, the fact you don't like the idea they are allowed to set those rules is irrelevant. They can, and they do. Rant all you wish about how you would like it to be. But your dreams do not a reality make.

Ask snowgirl if the horse shows she's at sets rules and guidelines. I bet they do. I bet it isn't total anarchy where anyone can come, do whatever they want. See if someone can come in and fire off flash photography - it's allowed in public after all. Ask if playing loud music (within the public noise limits) is allowed. I'm sure it is - because as you say, the event has no authority to make any rules for those that attend. I'm sure anyone that wants to is allowed in the ring - after all the event has no authority to make rules. Seriously, if you only step back you'll see just how silly your argument is that organizations have no authority to make rules that limit freedoms participants or attendees would normally have in general public.

[cdonovan]

I would encourage snowgirl to seek out her answer amongst a like minded group of photographers. There is a community of equine photographers and a forum where her inquiry would be answered immediately without question. Answered by folks who have been in this business for a lot of years. Of course, it might be the answer that she doesn't want to hear. :gone

[Glort]

I would encourage snowgirl to seek out her answer amongst a like minded group of photographers. There is a community of equine photographers and a forum where her inquiry would be answered immediately without question. Answered by folks who have been in this business for a lot of years. Of course, it might be the answer that she doesn't want to hear. :gone
I don't think Snow ever had an inquiry.
She put forward a thought for a business idea and people that felt threatened by it jumped all over her with a lot of moralistic clap trap.

What exactly would " Like Minded" ( whatever that is?) photographers have to offer in this situation. She needs qualified legal advise not more moralistic waffle.

When you want to know what the law is, you seek the advise of the people in that profession not something completely unrelated.

Since my last post I have been looking into the issue a bit more. There is definitely things in that for the Canadian shooters to be aware of!
I would strongly suggest before anyone thinks of having someone else run out of an event they would want to be VERY careful they have their own backsides covered First.
Bit don't anyone take my word for it, spend your own time getting yourself up to speed. Preferably from legal sources rather than other photographers. :rolleyes

BTW cdonovan, you have been very quick to tell others they don't know what they are talking about and make note of the time people have been in business etc in an apparent effort to undermine their credibility.
May I ask your age and how long you have been a full time professional Photographer in this area??

[Snowgirl]

The January Thaw Equine Expo one-day trade show was a smashing success. We were fortunate to have good weather, and clear, dry roads to attendance for this third annual event was at an all time high.

Once I have a chance to rest my aching back and legs (I don't think I sat down once between 7:a.m. and 5:p.m.) I'll post a couple of photos of my booth and fill in the details on the activities and any comments received from potential customers about my Paparazzi packages.

Have a good night all.

[Glort]

Great to hear you did so well Snow!
There is nothing like the feeling of being completely drained after doing one of those shows but being amazed at how well it went.

Have well earned rest then let us know all about it.

[zooexplorer]

This a comment for a earlier post in the thread. If you want examples of events where photography is highly restricted and banned for most look in to the preforming arts. Dance competitions I attend its expected there to be no cameras, primarily a fear of competitor figuring out the dance moves and using them.

Sorry to chime in late in the thread.

[Snowgirl]

Over $3500 was raised at the third annual January Thaw Equine Expo for the local chapter of the Children's Wish Foundation. This was the third annual January Thaw Equine Expo and the event has grown dramatically in that short time. There were over 50 exhibitor booths (and a waiting list for exhibit space), a series of educational seminars offered throughout the day, and an opportunity for people from across the horse community throughout the province to come together and enjoy a day of camaraderie. Between visitors and exhibitors close to 750 people attended the one-day event.

The only opportunity I had to take photos of the booths was early on in the morning when everyone (including me) was still setting up. Consequently, many of the booths don't appear completely 'finished', but the visitors began coming in well before the 9 a.m. opening time and the flow was steady all day. My photos are in a gallery if you'd care to have a look. Just follow the link.

http://imagesbyceci.smugmug.com/Events/2010-January-Thaw-Equine-Expo/11036473_jtTjY#772112476_6bB5r

All said and done, it went well. I ended up with 66 solid contacts out of which 43 are good leads, so I'm quite happy. Also, it was a chance for additional exposure to the group, particularly some stables, disciplines and breed associations.

Although the photo of my booth looks a tad in disarray (in set-up stage), in fact I ended up with many compliments on the quality of my photos and inquiries as to whether or not I'd be willing to travel to different locations to do photo shoots (duh - yes!).

In one case a person wanted me to travel to her daughter's university to take photos of her and her horse. In fairness to the customer, I recommended another photographer who lives within a few miles of the university (it's in another province). Although I was flattered to be asked, I didn't think it would be fair to charge more for travel and expenses than the photos! (If it were a wedding or even a graduation, that'd be different) Plus - for me to do it would take 2+ days when you factor in the travel. I'm sure the person I recommended will do a bang-up job for the lady.

As the A&E commercial says, it was "time well spent".:clap

OH - AND I won the exhibitor door prize of two month's free advertising on the region's most popular equine website!

[Glort]

Well done Snow!
I'm glad to hear the effort paid off. I'm sure you'll be able to turn lots of these leads into profitable work. Original and different concepts always go down well as people are always wanting something new, different and original.

It's amazing in your photos just how similar some of the stands were there to what I have seen at country shows and fairs here.
Hopefully you got a got mailing list from the show and you can now work that and get even more leads.

Sounds like the year is off to a great start for you!
:clap:ivar

[Snowgirl]

Well done Snow!
I'm glad to hear the effort paid off. I'm sure you'll be able to turn lots of these leads into profitable work. Original and different concepts always go down well as people are always wanting something new, different and original.

It's amazing in your photos just how similar some of the stands were there to what I have seen at country shows and fairs here.
Hopefully you got a got mailing list from the show and you can now work that and get even more leads.

Sounds like the year is off to a great start for you!
:clap:ivar

Thanks Glort. And yes, I did develop a new mailing list as well so we're off to the races, as 'they' say :)

[TEphotos]

Well done Snow!
I'm glad to hear the effort paid off. I'm sure you'll be able to turn lots of these leads into profitable work. Original and different concepts always go down well as people are always wanting something new, different and original.

It's amazing in your photos just how similar some of the stands were there to what I have seen at country shows and fairs here.
Hopefully you got a got mailing list from the show and you can now work that and get even more leads.

Sounds like the year is off to a great start for you!
:clap:ivar

I agree!!! :barb:ivar:clap

[mercphoto]

Other than that, it's all on spec selling to a relatively captive audience just the same as with the sports. My thoughts on making this venture successful are tailoring the product to the market and giving them something that will appeal and be different.
Figure that part out and this should work out well for you!

[SCP]

I so agree that printing on site in close-to-real-time is ideal Unfortunately, I'm a one-woman show at the moment so that's a bit tricky. I did have "office help" at one event last year and that helped with sales - although still not high enough to justify the time spent and the wage paid to the helper.

The $100 a day basically just covers my travel expenses and meals to be on-site. The only 'profit' per se is actual photo sales.

I'm still interested to see how the workflow goes for your idea, David, and also am looking at options for myself as well. Thanks a lot for your comments.

Let me tell you how to get around this.

1) Ask them provide meals for you. (At least one meal a Day. They are usually happy to provide you with lunch)
2) If you are traveling more then three hours away from home ask for a room. (Most times they are housing Judges. They don't mind adding on another room)
3) If you are traveling out of state ask for comp for gas. (.45 cents a mile) A Hotel room and a meal.

I routinely as for this and have not been turned down. In fact it is in my contracts.

[Snowgirl]

Congrats! Like you said, what a great confidence booster to have success with the first phone call - AND to successfully turn an objection into a sale! Well done and good luck. Can't wait to hear how the golfers react.:clap

[SCP]

You must do a lot different and bigger events than what I do or have even heard of! :huh

Even the biggest international events here would not pay for travel, meals and fuel let alone the little shows we are talking about here.
I think we have a lot less shooters here but even so, there is no way you'd get them to pay you for all that as the higher level events charge the shooter for the priveledge of being there and thee is no way they would pay their expenses for the privilege.
If anyone here was to ask for that, the organizers would simply get another shooter.

Just the same, I'd like to hear how you sell yourself to get what you do and what sort of shows are hiring you. I'm sure there is something many of us could learn from how you are achieving that.


My first show of the season was a whopping ten horses at a All Breed training show. They were more then happy to provide me a meal. (Adding me to their Catering tab or Restaurant Tab)

Last December I did a Show in Loveland Colorado. I was given two meals a day and my hotel room (Along with my assistant) We were also invited to dinner with the BoD.

I have not had anyone turn me down yet. Unless they have another shooter.

Every year between September - January I start sending out Email Blasts to all my previous shows and ask them if they would like me again this year. Right now I have 5 shows lined up for all year. I am working on adding more as soon as I get Schedule conflicts out of the way. I am a one woman show, so I can't be at more then one show on any given day. (I'd love to have an assistant)

I sell between Arena Drag times, Lunch, Breaks and tack Changes. I also have the announcer announcing me all through out the show. I'm personable, friendly and I approach people. I LOVE to show riders a photo I think is amazing right on the camera. (This gets them excited. They get to touch the equipment)

Also if I have time (Usually at the end of the show) I sit down with people and edit their photos with them. They love lightroom and watching dull photos become amazing with cropping and color management. That gets them excited too.

Nine times out of ten I get prime Booth Locations. Tons of traffic. I get advertising space, Announcements in their programs, through out the show and I talk to people. I also give them photos for their websites.

This is also my third year with alot of my shows. I did not ask for compensation til last year and as of yet have not had a problem.

I am not making Fistfulls of money, but enough to make it worth my while. (Though last year was hard)

[johng]

I am not making Fistfulls of money, but enough to make it worth my while. (Though last year was hard)

That's the key. After you figure in the cost of insurance/liability and taxes and depreciation on equipment (and the saving for replacement), is the money left over good enough compensation for the hours spent in the effort to shoot, process, market etc. I have to say when I factored all the real costs into the equation, the net income for event photography just wasn't enough to keep me involved. So good for those of you who are making enough profit that it's worth all of it. :clap

[SCP]

That's the key. After you figure in the cost of insurance/liability and taxes and depreciation on equipment (and the saving for replacement), is the money left over good enough compensation for the hours spent in the effort to shoot, process, market etc. I have to say when I factored all the real costs into the equation, the net income for event photography just wasn't enough to keep me involved. So good for those of you who are making enough profit that it's worth all of it. :clap

If you aren't loving what you do regardless of money coming in then you need to look at that. Is it worth the money.

For me it's worth getting out of the house, making friends, meeting clients who will use me for Farm shoots. (Which is where more profit comes in) The shows for me are all about Marketing. If I make money at them Awesome. If I get a free lunch, some new clients All the more awesome.

It's hardly a waste of time.. unless I don't give out a single business card.

[Snowgirl]

Thanks Snow!
Hopefully you will be able to do much the same for your year of profitability! :wink

Yep, Definitely different types of shows to what I cover! :D

The only catering at the ones I do is the canteen where you might get a steak sandwich or a hot dog and accommodation is in tents in the carpark or the horse trucks. Mind you, some of those trucks are fitted out waaaay nicer than my house!.... And some of those full size semi's I have seen, I don't think would cost all that much less either! :cry

Your method of working might be beneficial to other people like Snow whom are currently working on their own. I couldn't do my events without help although this year I'm looking at a change of tact in the way I cover and sell them.
With the 2 day events, I'm just going to take my shooter on the first day and take pics. I can format and load them up that night and then on the second day, I'll take the computers and V stations to sell the pics because we never sell anything the first day anyhow.

Interesting the profitability point comes up. The last couple of days I have got the idea to sell my events trailer. Not so much because I don't make money out of it but because I can make money without it.

I'm moving more towards the indoor events ( few indoor arena's here) and setting my equipment up accordingly. It occurred to me that all the equine events I do ( and there will only be abut 10 locations I'll cover this year although most multiple times) have clubhouses that no one other than the scorers really use. I have started on building rolling cabinets to put all my gear in that will require no more setup than open the box, plug in power and a network cable ( and I might just go wireless yet and be done with it) and off I go.

Because I have a large annexe on the trailer and everything has to be untied tied inside and arranged from travel mode to work mode, the trailer takes at least a good 30 Min to set up and always seems a lot longer to pack up. I'm thinking that setting up in the clubhouse with a couple of boxes for the workstation and 2-3 more for the view stations won't take any longer if its not quicker and easier. At very least, once the boxes are in the clubhouse my wife and son will be able to do the rest as there will be no high, heavy lifting like there is with the trailer.

The main benefits of locating inside will be that things like glare on the monitors, wind, rain and dust will no longer be significant problems as they are now. I am thinking of building some square boxes for the Vstations with a monitor on every side so 4 to a stand. I could do them as a flat pack and sit them on tables which would mean I'd have to bring my own extended height tables to put them on or have people sitting down at the Vstations. I don't like the latter idea because people tend to get too comfortable and will fill in their time looking at every shot taken rather than their own and slow down the ability of others to have a look.

The main concern with being inside clubhouses is the lack of visibility to the patrons of the events but I think the people on the circuit work pretty much all know me by now and some investment in banners and extra signage will take care of that. I believe the people interested in buying a pic will find me and the only people I'll miss out on are the tyre kickers.

Due to other work coming on, I'm not sure how many equine events I'll bother with this year anyway so it makes sense to cash in the asset of the trailer and put the money into equipment that will allow me to better work the more profitable markets.

I originally bought a smaller trailer I was going to modify but then a few weeks later the block of flats came along that was pretty much set up for what I wanted so I bought that and have been using it. Because I got the first one at a good price and it was a sound trailer, I kept it and it will be the one I use to transport the cases I'll build the gear into in. Even if I put the same equipment in it, I'm about 600Kg better off on the towing straight away just through the different weights of the trailers themselves.

It's a lot smaller and lighter than the one I'm using now which will be so much better to tow and being a lot lower and aerodynamic, will mean it doesn't feel like towing a parachute. I will line and insulate it inside and if necessary, I can easy work in it with the gear in the cases just as I would if inside a venue. If I end up doing an event where there is no indoor facilities, at worst I can buy a good quality 6x3M marquee for about $300 and work out of that. In some ways, I think that will actually be better than the trailer setup I have now.

Once I get the rolling cases done, I'll do a couple of the horse events and see how working from the clubhouses goes. If there are no unforseen problems, I'll be able to make a space in my long but now full driveway! :D

Great.Let us know how all of this goes.

I'm lucky in one respect. The venue where I do most of my horse shows has an area that all of the photographers who shoot there use. It's visible from the arena and, because it's the same spot all the time, the regular competitors know to come there to see what's what.

The rolling cart view station sounds good. Lots of luck.:thumb

[Snowgirl]

Had a setback today with the charity event I booked.

The organiser pulled the pin because one of the event sponsors ( a media company I think) seem to have picked up on the idea and want to provide pics for the participants themselves.

Such is life.
There are another 2 events on the same day I found so I'll see how I go lining them up. With a bit of luck, I might hook one of those and be busy that day anyhow.

I have started on the cart but progress has been a little slow. With ever day here being 35oC+ and humidity around 70-80%, I have been finding "cooler" things to. I have got the frame built and am trying to think the best way of setting up the monitor and the top of the box.

I'm thinking I can have the monitor under a lid so everything folds down flat or go for something simpler and just pack the monitor away in the box. never seen anything like this around to get any ideas from.

It's rather surprising how much space an inkjet printer requires when you put it in a box. Once you allow room for the paper feed and exit, they take up a fair chunk of space!

Pity about that. But - lesson learned. If a major sponsor is a media company - don't waste your time, eh? Or - try to subcontract through the media company as an alternative.

I saw another version of the cart that had a lift-up top such as you describe - which is a one idea. Or, for safety sake - stick with the original concept and box up the monitor when you're transporting.

Good luck. Watching with GREAT interest.:D

[Intella]

Reading this thread, I'm trying to grasp the last few posts, did you mean that the event that booked and then pulled out already had volunteers in place to do the job?


I started my whole equine events business last year though one lead and networked everything else from there, No reason I can't do the same again especially with 12 months experience behind me now! :ivar


The thing with equine stuff, or any niche markets for that matter, is that you have to know them to shoot them. Sure anyone can shoot technically correct, but to really show the horse rider combo, to their fullest potential, you need a background.

[Snowgirl]

He has rung me twice since and appears very interested in my doing another much larger event for them in a few months time.
The organizer is definitely an older gentleman and I believe is quite straight up and not the type to play games. We are still playing cellphone tag ATM so I'll catch up and see what he says.

COOL! It will produce results no doubt.

I have 3 other groups interested atm, one I should hear back from today and the other early next week. I sent another batch of emails yesterday, one got back to me straight away and the others I'll chase up tomorrow.
At this stage I think I have left my run a bit late for many of them but that's OK, it was a rush of blood idea and I'm learning the game as I go even by just talking to them. The guy that cancelled seemed to be unaware that I would attend the day for nothing. That taught me something in itself and I went back and modified my letter and put that right in the headline as well as made mention in 2 other places.
I won't have anyone under the wrong impression of what it will cost again. :D

Good point. Cost is ALWAYS a factor with event organizers - particularly when they're charity events. Good to clarify and reiterate a few times!

The events further out seem harder to find but once I start building some rapport with the event managers I hope most of the work will come to me and my prospecting time can be greatly reduced.


Event schedules are always hard to access - and more importantly, the contact folks. I get a titch frustrated when dealing with committees - especially when they're chaotic. I'm a firm believer that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. It's hard to find out who can make decisions - and when!


I completely Disagree if you are saying that you need a knowledge of the sport or interest itself.
It certainly wouldn't hurt but the value is limited.

What I know about horses could be written in the top left hand corner of a postage stamp in 12 point and while I don't pretend to be the best equine shooter in the world by any means, the way to improvement of my work is through technical means rather than a better knowledge of horses or the sport of SJ, dressage or any other discipline.

One thing I will blow my own trumpet for is an ability to learn.
When I started out ( and to this day) I am always asking people questions about my work. Do they like them, is that what they think is the best position of the horse, do they like that angle..... You soon get a general consensus of what to do and what people like ( IE, are most likely to buy) and while I get a lot of compliments on my work, the only horse I have an ability to ride is my iron one with " Harley" on the gas tank rather than the flesh and blood kind.

Conversely, there are a number of parents that are very well equipped with camera gear at these events and most of them are in my " Best customers" group.

Of course if we then look at making a business from photographing these sports and events, then knowledge of the sport takes a back seat to ability with a camera which is well outdone by business and marketing skills which are the most important things of all.
My clients have proved over and over again that Taking brilliant pics is NOT the key to success in the photography game.

In the early days where my trailer Jockey would just dump the cards into gallery's and put them on the Vstations, we had people order some shocker pics. They would come off the printer, we'd say, terribly sorry that is a terrible shot, please select another 2 on us and they would still want the shocker and it was IMPOSSIBLE to talk them out of it. They loved the expression on the kids face even though half the head was missing, the way the horse had it's ears even though they were about the only thing in the entire frame that was within a bulls roar of being in focus, the look of the father who was perfectly in focus even though the rider and horse weren't..... Nothing to do with photographic skill ( it had taken a brief absence in some of those shots) or knowledge of the sport ( none to begin with).

I have tried my hand at several other sports and events and the only thing I need to know is what the participants like to see and be portrayed as doing what they do well. From there it's pretty much a matter of getting the timing right and I'm there with no worries. :D

I have to disagree with you on this one, Glort. While it's true that people will buy some shots for reasons we'd never fathom (Daddy's expression, nice ears - whatever) I have found that shots that capture the sport action at its peak do well. I have competed in (and taught riding lessons as a certified coach) both show jumping and dressage so, when I'm shooting, I know the moments or the horse positions that will exemplify an excellent moment in that sport - and it does help.

I think multiple things contribute to sales success:

knowledge of the event helps a lot for those looking for proof of that moment of excellence;http://imagesbyceci.smugmug.com/Horses/Dressage/Dressage-NB-Gold-Show-2-2009/IMG6570-Version-2/604391049_pgwcZ-M.jpg

This might not be the best technical shot, but it sold because it's the quintessential moment in the canter portion of the dressage test.
technical ability with exposure, composition and lighting; and
yep, MARKETING.
In terms of relative importance, though, I have to agree with Glort - marketing seems to rank #1. There are lots of excellent photographers out there (in various realms) who are starving; and there are others who are mediocre but doing well financially.

[mercphoto]

I have to disagree with you on this one, Glort.
As would I. Sorry, Glort, but if all you think need to do is work on the technicals on the photography then you are completely missing the emotional and artistic part. And for that you need to understand your subject matter. There is no debating this.

In terms of relative importance, though, I have to agree with Glort - marketing seems to rank #1. There are lots of excellent photographers out there (in various realms) who are starving; and there are others who are mediocre but doing well financially.

This is true in any industry. The "build a better mousetrap" line was written by an engineer who naively thought the market always buys the better mousetrap, because as an engineer that is what they do. :) But marketing is what makes or breaks any product or service. This is why the marketing and sales people usually make more $$$ in any company than the engineers do. :(

[Snowgirl]

I think I'll hit you up with a pm with few questions snow on what the best moments are for the different horse events. I have got a few different answers from the many, many riders I have spoken to so far but mainly they tell me the same thing which is what I work to.

I'm always willing to learn though![/quote]

Happy to help. I agree that it's impossible to know everything about every sport that one might want to shoot - and practice with feedback from the athletes is obviously one way to do that. I'd be in the same pickle if I were to try and shoot football, for example. I have a friend who shoots a lot of youth football (started when her sons got involved) and has a nice little team photo business going. But - she knows the game well - and where to be to get those good shots.

Congrats on wrapping up another charity event. You're on to a good thing there!:clap

[Snowgirl]

Starting a new thread on business opportunities.