smugmug and Internet Explorer 5 get a divorce

[onethumb]

Read it and rejoice (http://blogs.smugmug.com/onethumb/)! :)

Comments? Concerns? Let's hear them.

Don

[wxwax]

I look forward to the changes. :thumb On a side note, I do find the dark blue type in your blog hard to read against the black background, I had to highlight it.

[JamesJWeg]

Cool, I am suprised you waited this long, on a side note, your proof reader failed.

"Safari (http://www.apple.com/safari/) is comes on every Mac."

James.

[DavidTO]

Read it and rejoice (http://blogs.smugmug.com/onethumb/)! :)

Comments? Concerns? Let's hear them.

Don


Since when are there blogs on smugmug? Is it something available to the masses?

[Nikolai]

Read it and rejoice (http://blogs.smugmug.com/onethumb/)! :)
Comments? Concerns? Let's hear them.
Don
Smart decision!:thumb

[Mike Lane]

Curse the smart filter here at work. Anyone want to give a lowly blocked guy a hint about what is going on?

[flyingpylon]

What's the actual percentage of IE 5 users on Smugmug? I'm not sure that if I were running a commercial site that I would so quickly dismiss a browser as recent and ubiquitous as IE 5. But I assume that you guys have a handle on your stats and plan to make things degrade gracefully enough for those users that you don't end up shooting yourselves in the foot with the additional support cases.

I wonder what browsers Amazon designs for these days?

[JamesJWeg]

What's the actual percentage of IE 5 users on Smugmug? I'm not sure that if I were running a commercial site that I would so quickly dismiss a browser as recent and ubiquitous as IE 5. But I assume that you guys have a handle on your stats and plan to make things degrade gracefully enough for those users that you don't end up shooting yourselves in the foot with the additional support cases.

I wonder what browsers Amazon designs for these days?
As a network administrator I can tell you that there are MANY applications etc, which require IE6, in fact, very little still works well with IE5. It is no secret that I have not been supportive of every change SM has made, however this one is long overdue.

James.

[onethumb]

Cool, I am suprised you waited this long, on a side note, your proof reader failed.

"Safari (http://www.apple.com/safari/) is comes on every Mac."

James.

You mean I failed. :)

So-called "spell checkers" so often completely miss the words I type that I've given up using them. Combine that with the fact that I never proof-read.... :)

Oops!

Don

[onethumb]

I look forward to the changes. :thumb On a side note, I do find the dark blue type in your blog hard to read against the black background, I had to highlight it.

Aha! Improperly calibrated monitor! ;)

Don

[onethumb]

What's the actual percentage of IE 5 users on Smugmug? I'm not sure that if I were running a commercial site that I would so quickly dismiss a browser as recent and ubiquitous as IE 5. But I assume that you guys have a handle on your stats and plan to make things degrade gracefully enough for those users that you don't end up shooting yourselves in the foot with the additional support cases.

I wonder what browsers Amazon designs for these days?

We're running at less than 4.5% usage including Mac OS 9 IE5.

We spend more than 4.5% of our time writing crappy stuff to deal with IE5's lameness.

Just wait till you see what we can do without it... :)

(Now, if we could get rid of IE6, as well, we'd really be in the money. Firefox and Safari can do some amazing things).

Don

[Dee]

Firefox and Safari can do some amazing things).

Don

I use both, so am curious as to what the amazing things are. Sometimes I have to use IE5 if Firefox or Safari can't handle the site.

[onethumb]

I use both, so am curious as to what the amazing things are. Sometimes I have to use IE5 if Firefox or Safari can't handle the site.

FYI, the only sites I've ever seen that work in IE5 and don't in Firefox/Safari use non-standard HTML and CSS. In other words, they were written expressly for IE5, ignored all of the standards on the net, and just used Microsoft's incompatible "additions".

There are a vast array of things that Firefox and Safari do, which IE6 should but doesn't. They have fully compliant CSS2 renderers, for example, so we can do all sorts of complex layouts (and awesome cobranding/cuztomization for our customers). Best of all, though, they support the use of 8-bit transparency PNGs, so we can have nice overlays of graphic elements.

Every web developer on earth has been begging Microsoft to support these two things for the last 6 years - and it's finally paying off. IE7 beta will be out this summer, and supports both.

Don

[JamesJWeg]

You mean I failed. :)

So-called "spell checkers" so often completely miss the words I type that I've given up using them. Combine that with the fact that I never proof-read.... :)

Oops!

Don
Awe, come on Don, I thought that was what you hired that hot blonde for.

:hide

James.

[Mac Write]

While your at it upgrade to vbulletin 3.0.7 (or be daring and 3.5 Beta). Why not just do a simple browser check? then you can support IE5 (What will OS 9 users use then) and still be bleeding edge. Oh bleeding edge that will be so cool.

[onethumb]

While your at it upgrade to vbulletin 3.0.7 (or be daring and 3.5 Beta). Why not just do a simple browser check? then you can support IE5 (What will OS 9 users use then) and still be bleeding edge. Oh bleeding edge that will be so cool.

We have a limited amount of development time. (Everyone does, from Microsoft to smugmug).

There are really neat features that 96.5% of my users would use and love.

The other 4.5% (mostly) have free alternatives to join the other 96.5%.

Finally, building a complete 2nd copy of the entire website, using a browser check, to support that 4.5% would take up more than 50% of the aforementioned precious time time (because IE5 is broken, and thus, requires more effort and time).

So I think we're gonna skip the browser check and get right to the really neat features :)

Don

[Mac Write]

BTW can't you do the check on parts of the code only :D.

What are the new features? I would love full page control and CSS control like Pbase :D:D:D:D:D

[David_S85]

Don,

What about IE5.5?

[onethumb]

BTW can't you do the check on parts of the code only :D.

What are the new features? I would love full page control and CSS control like Pbase :D:D:D:D:D

Every single part of smugmug will be IE5.x incompatible in the future, so "parts of the code" really means "the entire codebase". Anyone who's developed for IE5 can regale you with stories of the hacks needed to get it to behave. We're all excited we don't have to waste time doing them anymore.

Wait, we don't offer full page control and CSS control? We've had this forever. What am I missing?

Don

[onethumb]

Don,

What about IE5.5?

Bullet to the head. Had to put her down.

Don

[Mike Lane]

Every single part of smugmug will be IE5.x incompatible in the future, so "parts of the code" really means "the entire codebase". Anyone who's developed for IE5 can regale you with stories of the hacks needed to get it to behave. We're all excited we don't have to waste time doing them anymore.

Wait, we don't offer full page control and CSS control? We've had this forever. What am I missing?

Don
You're missing complete control. I feel for you when you say you have to hack your code to get ie to behave because that's what I have to do to get my site to behave. I've been able to control about 95% of what I wanted to control (and it wasn't all that easy by the way) but that other 5% is beyond my reach either because the thing I want to change is associated with a class that something else that I don't want to change has (e.g. .headmd) or the thing I want to control is not associated with a class and is therefore out of my reach with the current cobranding setup (e.g. in the journal view the horizontal line between the pictures blends in with my background, I'd really like to make it 3px thick and color #202020 to fit in with my design). Also, I for one wouldn't use tables if I didn't have to (I'd use layers instead).

Yeah, I've gotten pretty far and I do like what I've been able to do with my site (have a look http://www.mikelanephotography.com) but it shouldn't require so many round about "hacks" to make it work.

[{JT}]

Complete control is coming with 0% tables.

You're missing complete control. I feel for you when you say you have to hack your code to get ie to behave because that's what I have to do to get my site to behave. I've been able to control about 95% of what I wanted to control (and it wasn't all that easy by the way) but that other 5% is beyond my reach either because the thing I want to change is associated with a class that something else that I don't want to change has (e.g. .headmd) or the thing I want to control is not associated with a class and is therefore out of my reach with the current cobranding setup (e.g. in the journal view the horizontal line between the pictures blends in with my background, I'd really like to make it 3px thick and color #202020 to fit in with my design). Also, I for one wouldn't use tables if I didn't have to (I'd use layers instead).

Yeah, I've gotten pretty far and I do like what I've been able to do with my site (have a look http://www.mikelanephotography.com) but it shouldn't require so many round about "hacks" to make it work.

[Mike Lane]

Complete control is coming with 0% tables.
Don't tease me...:clap

[wxwax]

Aha! Improperly calibrated monitor! ;)

Don
:wxwax

:evil No choice at work. Me and tens of thousands of others, I'm sure.

[onethumb]

:wxwax

:evil No choice at work. Me and tens of thousands of others, I'm sure.

Blame JT! I always do!

Don

[Mac Write]

Complete control is coming with 0% tables.
When. I can't wait to see you dump IE support, but am just concerned about that 5% (as Mac users are 5%). All my sites I work on now will say "Best Viewed With FireFox or Safari." No other browsers will be tested on :D:D:D:D:D.

[Baldy]

Blame JT! I always do!

DonGood idea. My monitor is calibrated and the blue nearly vanishes when I hover. And it's darker than the smugmug blue when you don't hover. We converted the smugmug blue to a lighter shade because of the feedback about being hard to read.

[onethumb]

When. I can't wait to see you dump IE support, but am just concerned about that 5% (as Mac users are 5%). All my sites I work on now will say "Best Viewed With FireFox or Safari." No other browsers will be tested on :D:D:D:D:D.

We love Safari, and show more than 5% of the people browsing smugmug using it. I imagine a decent percentage of Mac OS X users are also using Firefox, so the Mac OS X installed base is probably even larger.

We hate IE5, though. Since Safari and Firefox are both free and excellent for Mac OS X users, I think we're covered there.

We show a maximum of 1% of the browsers at smugmug using Mac OS 9 or lower, and I'm afraid they'll be left out in the cold. But we can't devote tons of time and energy to something that 1% or less of our users use.

Don

[muddyknees]

Every single part of smugmug will be IE5.x incompatible in the future, so "parts of the code" really means "the entire codebase". Anyone who's developed for IE5 can regale you with stories of the hacks needed to get it to behave. We're all excited we don't have to waste time doing them anymore.
Don
So even basic account browsing will break for IE5? :uhoh

Hmm... I am involved in a group that I take a lot of photo's for that I post on smugmug. Someone in the group also happens to be revamping the group's website and running into some compatibility problems with IE5, so, I referred them to this thread as a reason to just not worry about IE5, but promptly learned that there are "quite a few" mac users in the group that are still running OS 9 and are thus stuck with IE5 as their "best choice" browser.

So, If indeed my site will no longer work properly for those users, I may need to design my own "front end" ASAP to serve the photo's on smug from my other site. True, I've got a prototype with some features (map-based browsing) beyond what smug offers that I've been meaning to use to present photo's on smug, but in the near term I've got other priorities that I can't afford to rearrange.

Gary

Gary

[muddyknees]

Every single part of smugmug will be IE5.x incompatible in the future, so "parts of the code" really means "the entire codebase". Anyone who's developed for IE5 can regale you with stories of the hacks needed to get it to behave. We're all excited we don't have to waste time doing them anymore.
Don
What are you going to do about smugmug account holders who are on OS 9?

I know one member that I turned on to smugmug who I know is a mac user and may be still OS 9 - I've got a message to her to find out.

Gary

[Bodley]

Since IE6 is free what is the big deal to upgrade. The 1% - 5% of IE5 users can upgrade.

Sorta like "Tuff-Love". It's for their own good. :D

[muddyknees]

Since IE6 is free what is the big deal to upgrade. The 1% - 5% of IE5 users can upgrade.

Sorta like "Tuff-Love". It's for their own good. :D
They will first have to buy a new computer to upgrade their operating system. Mac OS 9 cannot run IE6 or Firefox or Safari.

Gary

[{JT}]

The benefits of upgrading from OS9 reach far beyond simply running a new browser, so it should be very easy to justify new hardware if they need it.

They will first have to buy a new computer to upgrade their operating system. Mac OS 9 cannot run IE6 or Firefox or Safari.

Gary

[Mac Write]

Not everyone can afford new hardware. They have donated computers as they can't afford the basics.

[Mike Lane]

Perhaps the local public library would be a better place for those people to do their Smugmugging? That way they wouldn't have to even pay for the internet connection.

[muddyknees]

The benefits of upgrading from OS9 reach far beyond simply running a new browser, so it should be very easy to justify new hardware if they need it.
The perception of "need" will depend on what else their limited money, and/or time-to shop and upgrade/move all their apps&data and learn new apps (eg, migrate away from Quark for example, which I understand isn't supported on OS10) -what all that time and money is really needed for in their lives - likely they'll just decide to skip the pleasure of looking at someone's photo's on smugmug for now.

It may also be an older mac they use at work - hard to justify to the boss to upgrade them so they can view some pictures.

Sure they might also go find another computer if they're really that motivated to view some photo's.

Gary

In my experience I never even learn that someone has forgotten my URL.

Gary

[Ben]

It was over 3 years ago that Apple officially pronounced OS 9 dead, halting all development and upgrading for that system. We hate to cut off people, but the 1% is holding back what we can do for the other 99%. We have done our best to support an operating system that Apple no longer even supports, but if we are to move forward we have to officially drop it.

[Khaos]

I think it's a good thing.

A small %, a very small %, shouldn't hold back forward progress for the majority. If that was the case, we'd all still be using rotary phones, and 2800 baud modems.

I personally will put in my cobranding: "This page requires either Internet Explorer 6.0 or higher, Firefox, or Safari to be viewed properly."

This is a business, and they aren't going to harm themselves by eliminating potential customers. They've done the math and it works for them. I'm happy we're moving forward.:thumb

[onethumb]

What are you going to do about smugmug account holders who are on OS 9?

I know one member that I turned on to smugmug who I know is a mac user and may be still OS 9 - I've got a message to her to find out.

Gary

Much of smugmug will probably still continue to function with IE5, you just won't have as nice of a display or all the neat new tools.

Officially, it'll be unsupported, but we're not going to lock people out of the site if they dont' have the right browser.

Don

[onethumb]

Much of smugmug will probably still continue to function with IE5, you just won't have as nice of a display or all the neat new tools.

Officially, it'll be unsupported, but we're not going to lock people out of the site if they dont' have the right browser.

Don

And it's not like it should come as a shock ... lots of pages on the net right now are ugly, or broken, or both on IE5. They're used to it, I'm afraid.

Don

[{JT}]

I smell a PC user :)

Quark is on it's third release for OSX and has been out for two years.

And all of the old Apps that they may have for OS9 can be installed in OSX and run in classic mode, some with virtually no performance hit.

The perception of "need" will depend on what else their limited money, and/or time-to shop and upgrade/move all their apps&data and learn new apps (eg, migrate away from Quark for example, which I understand isn't supported on OS10) -what all that time and money is really needed for in their lives - likely they'll just decide to skip the pleasure of looking at someone's photo's on smugmug for now.

It may also be an older mac they use at work - hard to justify to the boss to upgrade them so they can view some pictures.

Sure they might also go find another computer if they're really that motivated to view some photo's.

Gary

In my experience I never even learn that someone has forgotten my URL.

Gary

[{JT}]

Beyond that, IE 5 for Mac was itself pronounced dead almost two years ago. MS saw that Safari was a far superior browser and decided their course of action - no more IE 5 releases ... ever.

It was over 3 years ago that Apple officially pronounced OS 9 dead, halting all development and upgrading for that system. We hate to cut off people, but the 1% is holding back what we can do for the other 99%. We have done our best to support an operating system that Apple no longer even supports, but if we are to move forward we have to officially drop it.

[muddyknees]

I smell a PC user :)

Quark is on it's third release for OSX and has been out for two years.

And all of the old Apps that they may have for OS9 can be installed in OSX and run in classic mode, some with virtually no performance hit.
snif snif - I dont smell nothin':dunno

Yep, I've been a bit of a macophobe - but seem to find myself among a disproportionate number of mac users right now and am trying to learn.

I guess my web research (for my group's coincidental web site revamp problem) must have pulled up some old message before an OSX release of Quark was out. (shoulda checked my sources!)

It turns out that the mac person I mentioned earlier with the smugmug account is OSX, and of the two other OS9 users I talked to today, one hates having to use that old machine at work and hopes to be upgraded soon but also has a newer PC available, and the other is probably going to buy a PC tomorrow (coincidentally).

All of this helped us decide to not worry about IE5 compatibility for _our_ web site. So, I supose I could say thanks for leading the way and helping us justify our decision.

Gary

[muddyknees]

And it's not like it should come as a shock ... lots of pages on the net right now are ugly, or broken, or both on IE5. They're used to it, I'm afraid.

Don
Yeah, true enough. Seems mac users have to tolerate alot. Wait longer for sysadmins to figure out how to integrate them into the network, get backups working, printers visible, etc etc.

Gary