Help with posing a large group...

[Mongrel]

Hello Gang,

Well I was contacted by the parents of my daughter's friend to see if I'd be interested in shooting a family portrait for them.

"My son says you have, like, a really good camera?"

ahh....yea...I have a decent setup....

"Would you be interested in shooting our family portrait?"

ahhh...yea...sure....how many people?

"Well, there's mom and dad, and four brothers, their four wives, and they each have two children."

soo.....ahhhh....that's like 18 people right?

"Yes, including mom and dad, it's their 50th wedding anniversary. And the only time the family has been in one place for many years."

When are your parents arriving?

"They'll be here *next* Saturday afternoon."

*gulp* (I'm talking to my self-SELF you can *do this*), yea, sure I'll do it.

OK-now that I've bored you to death with the scenario, here's my question:

How in the world do you pose 18 people? Can someone please direct me to a good book or website on posing groups? I know it *sounds* much easier than I think it really is.

Shooting conditions:

2pm, outdoors (unless it rains), small yard, log cabin home-nice stone chimney, lots of great landscaping and vegetation. However the ground is fairly uneven to go for a straight 'stand 'em all up in a row' type of shot.

Equipment wise, I'm believe I'm ok....

1D
20D
Digital Rebel
580EX
420EX
Lightsphere II
Stofen omni-bounce
(2) tripods to mount slaves (if needed)
Assortment of lenses from 17mm and up....

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Mongrel

[ziggy53]

Mongrel,


What I would do:

Go to the site and actually talk to the people who contracted the photo and/or the owners of the property. It sounds like they are proud of their property and buildings. You want to find out if there is a particular view of the property they want in the photo. If so, the property, building(s) and such become part of your challenge.

If you can, visit the property around the same time of day as the intended shoot. Note the way the shadows play against the property and structures. Look especially for any reflected light that might "color" the scene. If possible, even stage a couple of people so you can see how the available light works on the faces. It can be a real eye-opener. Take some photos with just available light, so you can study it later.

You are also going to discover where you must be positioned. If you're downhill from the group, you may have to forego a tripod in favor of a taller stepladder, just to gain the height required.

Once you see how the available light is working, you can plan your fill-lighting approach. Again, try to use actual subjects, even if it's just yourself in a self-exposure. Don't get too fancy with a large group. You probably just want basic fill from close to the camera/lens axis. You probably don't want a lot of new shadows induced from lights to the sides.

Ask questions about the mobility of the people in the shot. Better you should know these things before-hand to discuss and plan around.

Most of the multi-family portraits I've seen come from organizing the families into "clusters" within the whole, it's just easier when trying to explain the relationships within the photo. Sometimes it's a completely different structure, but there's almost always a structure or plan to the posing positions. Think about the eldest as the principal individuals, with everyone else organized around. A lot of the time it's cute having the grandkids/great grandkids closer to the eldest folks to give a sense of age contrasts. Anything goes, as long as it's what the families want. In case they can't agree, it's usually better to shoot more and sort it out later.

Getting 18 people to cooperate for even a moment in unison is a considerable challenge itself. I would plan on a partner to help shoulder some of that responsibility, as well as point out posing issues you might miss.

I'm probably missing stuff, so hopefully others will join in the discussion.

You didn't mention what will happen if the weather closes in.

Best,

ziggy53

[mercphoto]

How in the world do you pose 18 people? Can someone please direct me to a good book or website on posing groups? I know it *sounds* much easier than I think it really is.

Shooting conditions:

2pm, outdoors (unless it rains), small yard, log cabin home-nice stone chimney, lots of great landscaping and vegetation. However the ground is fairly uneven to go for a straight 'stand 'em all up in a row' type of shot.


Nice equipment list! The 2pm part is what worries me the most. Over-head sun, nasty shadows on people's faces. I know that will be a problem. I'm thinking a solution might be a pair of slave flashes at low power in front of the group: one to your left, one to your right. I could be very wrong about the technique, but I think you will find you need a way to deal with the direct over-head sun.

One idea is to get them in a shaded area. Under a huge tree, under a porch, etc.

As per posing, I like the suggestion of putting people into groups. You mentioned it was someone birthday I think? Put that person prominent in the pose. Then maybe nearest relatives, and work your way out the family tree.

I would also suggest mulitple shots of that pose. People will have eyes closed, looking wrong place, etc.

Then, I'd start doing smaller groups. No reason to go through all this trouble and only get a big group shot. Just my thoughts. Hope it helps.

[Mongrel]

thanks so much for the replies, I know how valuable time is, and I appreciate the time you took to give such thoughtful answers :thumb

Yes, the 2pm sun is worrisome. We walked around the yard to discuss possible locations, and two of the three offer very little in the way of overhead cover. The third offers almost a full canopy of trees, *but* my back will be to a lakebed (unfortunately it's drained at the moment), and the ground slopes upwards at a pretty steep angle back towards the cabin.

Great suggestions on groupings within the group. The centerpiece will be the parents (50th anniversary), I was thinking of having them seated and working out from there. I'm considering some type of ground cover for the children to kneel or sit on, but it would have to be very discreet.

Another great suggestion-scout and pre-shoot the location at the same time of day. I am planning on going out there tomorrow or Wed. with my two daughters as guinea pigs :D As you suggested, it will give me a feel for what I'm up against-lighting and otherwise.

One fear I have is that I won't be able to get far enough back and will have to resort to using a wide angle lens, which from past experience doesn't exactly render people in a very complimentary way :uhoh

I have a book on posing large groups, but it's from the mid sixties and obviously *very* dated :rofl

If I can I'll post some of my preliminary shots in this thread to give a feel for what I'm dealing with.

Re: Inclement weather-

Move indoors :rolleyes and shoot in the cabins 'great room'. I'll have to move all the furniture out onto the porch though :rofl

thanks again guys-great advice and answers :thumb

[Ann McRae]

Hehehe

My only experience with a group of 18+ is with team photos!!!! 2 rows, goalie in the center, coaches at the ends or behind!!!

Okay, enough joking, I would be trying to find shade for the group. If you can't I remember some advice Shay gave regarding a large group shot in mid day sun at the beach - he suggested shooting into the sun which seems to be counterintuitive, but you can meter for it better than they can control the urge to squint.

Do you know the ages of the grandkids? Are you able to use any kind of props like garden benches, kid sized lawn chairs or stools or old tree stumps for seating?

As well, try to influence what they are wearing if you can - color coordinate dark solid colors or all white or all denim - some theme that eliminates Aunt Martha's puprle flower dress from taking over the photo.

I've never actually done this before, but think those are things you could think about.

ann

[ian408]

Some great advice here.

As others have said, go into it with a plan and take charge--not forecfully but
explain what you're trying to do and why you're doing it. You can do this
as you're getting people set up.

Maybe Auntie so-and-so will want a picture too. As a favor, you might collect
all the cameras in advance and once you're done, shoot for them as well.
Knowing of course that other than yours, the flash may not fire.

Might I suggest some reflectors as way to even things out a bit.

Best of luck and looking forward to seeing the result!

Ian

[Mongrel]

Thanks so much for stopping by :D , some great advice you gave me. I hadn't heard about Shay's recommendation on shooting *into* the sun. Makes a lot of sense, I'll check it out when I scout the place tomorrow.

As far as coordinating clothing-she (the lady who contacted me) mentioned white shirts (oh no-the blown highlights!!!), and the fact that they were going out to dinner right after the session. I know that white shirts are popular now for portraits (at least in the studios around here), and khaki seems to be the predominant pants color. Hopefully, since everyone except the parents are in their late 30's early 40's, PURPLE will not be a factor (I just shot a wedding where the altar background was a solid deep purple-:rolleyes ).

thanks again for the tips-especially the Shay Stephen's Banzai Sun tip!

[Mongrel]

Great idea on the cameras. I believe the only people on-site will be those actually in the pic. Of course, when they break up into family groups for the other shots, I may need to grab the cameras from them.

I don't have any reflectors, and I don't know if I could make one large enough to cover the group, but perhaps I can use one for the small portraits? I've heard of all sorts of stuff being used for reflectors-styrofoam boards, poster paper, automobile sunshades-so maybe I should bring something along.

Thanks again for stopping by to help me out, I'll definately keep you guys posted.

[Mongrel]

Now I'm all turned around in my head :scratch The area I thought would give the best lighting turned out awful funky (at least using my Tamron 17-35). The area that kinda looks the *ugliest* actually had the most even lighting. The place I didn't even consider, well, may be my best bet.

Here's a few of my options....

#1 The back yard (this was actually where the customer preferred)

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781461-M.jpg

#2 Backyard again-

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781444-M.jpg

Honestly, the lighting didn't look that harsh when I took the shot :dunno

Another option-the 'side-yard'

#3

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781429-M.jpg

The *other* side yard-

#4

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781430-M.jpg


The side of the cabin showing the chimney-

#5

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781431-M.jpg

The least likely candidate may be the *best* option, the front *yard*-

#6

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781426-M.jpg

Last but not least, I was thinking individual family shots against this background-

#7

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781474-M.jpg

Sorry to bombard ya with all these pics, but I wanted to show what I was up against and get your feedback. Tomorrow (Wed.) I'm going back with my wife and two daughters to shoot some fill-flash stuff and work on positioning. I have a 5/ x 9' oriental (style) rug that I'm planning on bringing for people to kneel on or for kids to sit on. I'm still not sure whether to shoot from the waist up, knees up, or full body :dunno

Again, I appreciate any feedback you can give me on the above.

Thanks,

Mongrel

[Bodwick]

I'd try climbing out the upstairs window onto the low roof and take a look at the view down from there.

This high view will work well with the large number of people. You can shoot groups of 30-40+ from upstairs windows allowing all parties to be in view..



Bod....

[Ann McRae]

Hi Mongrel
Is there a way to use the retaining wall or the steps as a seating device? Can you get the family to spread themselves along the stair case and get a good angle on them? If you position yourself about where the table is, you may be able to make it work.

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781461-M.jpg

Another option-the 'side-yard'

I like this one, too.

#3

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781429-M.jpg

And I really like this one. Put the chairs into the center (lined up with the corner of the fence, but more toward the fron of the shade), get rid of the bbq.Get the parents into those red adirondak chairs, maybe with the chiminea in the middle (not sure it will work), and pose the family in a semi circle around the parents - some kids in front on the paving stones. I think it would work really well.
#4

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781430-M.jpg


The side of the cabin showing the chimney-

Lots of character in that chimney - individual familes?

#5

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781431-M.jpg

The least likely candidate may be the *best* option, the front *yard*-

I do not see it - the background is too busy.

#6

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781426-M.jpg

Last but not least, I was thinking individual family shots against this background-

I like this one, too.

#7

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/25781474-M.jpg


ann

[mercphoto]

After looking at your location pictures, next I would start worrying about depth of field. You need at least enough depth of field to get all the people in focus (strangely, I saw a youth baseball team photo by a "professional" that had only 1 of 4 rows of people in focus). After that we usually want the background to drop out of focus. However, in these locations that might be hard to do, as the background isn't very far away. I'd be inclined because of that, you might want to aim for excessive depth of field instead of shallow. If the background is just barely past the DOF things tend to look out of focus rather than pleasantly blurred.

I'd be tempted to shoot f/8 to f/11 if lighting conditions allow. I'd be interested if anyone disagrees and why.

[erich6]

You may want to see if you can move back away from the house more than you did for these pictures. I would worry about these backgrounds being too strong and overpowering your subject. Backing away would change the perspective and make the group standout more relative to the objects in the background. With that, I think the backyard, front, or the chimney side shots would work best.

Erich

[Higgmeister]

I don't do portraits, but here is an idea. This is taken from old time studio and family shots.

The grandparents should be seated together (maybe holding hands turned slightly towards eachother), the other adults standing to their sides. Here is where grouping would work well. Their eldest children (or favorites) can stand next to them, slightly behind, with maybe a hand on their shoulders. The grandkids then can be put next to the grandparents in front of their own parents. The grandparents should have a place of honor and stand out since it is their special day.

Seems like you are getting plenty of advice on where to shoot, so I though I'd put this suggestion in. Maybe it'll give you some ideas.

Good Luck,
Chris

[pathfinder]

Mongrel - After looking at your images of where you plan to shoot - one thing stands out strongly to me - and that is that the light and shadows are mottled from passing through the leaves in the trees. Be very careful in this kind of lighting or you will get mottled lighting on your subjects faces and it is almost impossible to do anything about it. I speak from experience here.

Either use flash for your light source, or make sure your subjects are in even shaded lighting, not the mottled lighting I see in many of your shots. The advantage of flash will be that it may illuminate the backgrounds darker than the subjects. I would keep the subjects 8-10 feet in front of any background you chose also. And have fun shooting also. :thumb

[Mongrel]

I did get to shoot some experimental shots using my wife and daughter. I put them in different positions to see what aperture I needed to keep them both in focus.

You are right that it is better to shoot with more DOF in this case than less. Especially because of the large group and the tight backgrounds.

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it :thumb


After looking at your location pictures, next I would start worrying about depth of field. You need at least enough depth of field to get all the people in focus (strangely, I saw a youth baseball team photo by a "professional" that had only 1 of 4 rows of people in focus). After that we usually want the background to drop out of focus. However, in these locations that might be hard to do, as the background isn't very far away. I'd be inclined because of that, you might want to aim for excessive depth of field instead of shallow. If the background is just barely past the DOF things tend to look out of focus rather than pleasantly blurred.

I'd be tempted to shoot f/8 to f/11 if lighting conditions allow. I'd be interested if anyone disagrees and why.

[Mongrel]

As I replied to Bill above, I did get a chance to shoot some people in these settings. The area that seemed to work best was one of the settings in the side yard (with the pavers\stones).

I plan to shoot fairly tight-but not *too* tight (to allow for framing and print sizing), so hopefully there won't be too much background that actually shows in the shot.

Thanks for your help, I appreciate it :thumb



You may want to see if you can move back away from the house more than you did for these pictures. I would worry about these backgrounds being too strong and overpowering your subject. Backing away would change the perspective and make the group standout more relative to the objects in the background. With that, I think the backyard, front, or the chimney side shots would work best.

Erich

[Mongrel]

Your suggestion is great, and will work very well for one of the setups I have in mind! I want to try and shoot *down* from a ladder with the parents as the focal point-seated-and the other family members 'spilling out' behind them.

Thanks again for stopping by to comment :thumb

Take care,

Mongrel

I don't do portraits, but here is an idea. This is taken from old time studio and family shots.

The grandparents should be seated together (maybe holding hands turned slightly towards eachother), the other adults standing to their sides. Here is where grouping would work well. Their eldest children (or favorites) can stand next to them, slightly behind, with maybe a hand on their shoulders. The grandkids then can be put next to the grandparents in front of their own parents. The grandparents should have a place of honor and stand out since it is their special day.

Seems like you are getting plenty of advice on where to shoot, so I though I'd put this suggestion in. Maybe it'll give you some ideas.

Good Luck,
Chris

[Andy]

agree with the suggestions given. lighting will be tough, mongrel!

another one:

get up high, and arrange them like a flower

http://williams.smugmug.com/photos/144649460-L.jpg

[Mongrel]

You make a VERY good point about the mottled lighting. In fact, yesterday my wife and I stopped by for some test shots, and that is EXACTLY what I found to be a problem!

I am definately using a flash, and I experimented using my 580EX with my Lightsphere II. This is the first time I used the LSII outdoors and it proved to be somewhat frustrating. Using the ETTL setting and compensation set at -0- I was blowing out most of the shots. I never had this problem with my Sigma 500DG Super and my Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer on a bracket.

The best results using the 20D and 580EX were without the LSII and flash compensation set between -2/3 stop and -1 stop. I'll probably go without the LSII at this point.

As far as 8-10 feet from the background, this may prove a little difficult, but I will try to get them as from the background as possible. The pics above were all shot at 17mm on a 20D just to give an idea of what I had to work with. I *really* don't want to shoot people that wide because of the effect-short and fat :uhoh . I made that mistake at a wedding and it looks pretty poor. I have the best luck at around 28mm on a 1.6 crop camera.

Thank you *so much* for your input on this, I really appreciate that you took the time :thumb

Oh, I will *try* to have fun :D , but they are forecasting temps around 96:huh .
My plan is too be setup well in advance and to shoot fassssttt :D

Take care,

Mongrel


Mongrel - After looking at your images of where you plan to shoot - one thing stands out strongly to me - and that is that the light and shadows are mottled from passing through the leaves in the trees. Be very careful in this kind of lighting or you will get mottled lighting on your subjects faces and it is almost impossible to do anything about it. I speak from experience here.

Either use flash for your light source, or make sure your subjects are in even shaded lighting, not the mottled lighting I see in many of your shots. The advantage of flash will be that it may illuminate the backgrounds darker than the subjects. I would keep the subjects 8-10 feet in front of any background you chose also. And have fun shooting also. :thumb

[pathfinder]

agree with the suggestions given. lighting will be tough, mongrel!

another one:

get up high, and arrange them like a flower

http://williams.smugmug.com/photos/14508287-M.jpg

Gosh, that picture was extracted very nicely Andy!!
:D :D :D :D

[Mongrel]

I just saw that you posted that pic recently (not sure if it was here or FM :scratch ), and as soon as I saw it I thought-hey that might just be the ticket!!!!

Thanks so much for stopping by to share that example, I really appreciate it.

Yea, the lighting is the main concern. Not enough tree canopy to block it out effectively, as shown in the example shots above. Hopefully the 580EX will cover the group without blowing them out. I was informed that "white shirts" would be the uniform of the day :uhoh . Now I'm thinking of shooting it with my 1D instead of the 20D. The 1D is known for handling highlights very well. I expect that they may want prints larger than 8X10 from this shoot, so I better learn how to up-rez the 4MP RAW I guess.

That's another thing I wanted to mention-I WILL be shooting RAW...

Thanks again Andy for your help and input on this. I appreciate that you took time to stop by :thumb

Take care,

Mongrel

[Mongrel]

that I took so long to respond to your wonderful reply. I am so thankful for your input on this-your ideas and suggestion were great :thumb

I especially like your suggestions on the patio area. That's the way I'm leaning right now. I think it provides the best balance of area, background and lighting.

Thanks again so much for taking the time to so thoughtfully reply-you're the best:thumb

Take care,

Mongrel

[Andy]

Gosh, that picture was extracted very nicely Andy!!
:D :D :D :D

it sure was :wink thanks for that help back there pf :thumb

[ziggy53]

Mongrel,


Is the shoot this Saturday (7-2-2005)?

If so, good luck and let us know how it went.

ziggy53

[Angelo]

Mongrel,


Is the shoot this Saturday (7-2-2005)?

If so, good luck and let us know how it went.

ziggy53

:agree

[Mongrel]

Well guys 'n gals, the shoot was Sat. June 25 and I've just gotten the post work etc. done. I'll give you my feelings on it and a few *samples* :rolleyes

The pics suck. When all is said and done, I could have done much better, and I *have* done much better before. All the prelim work, test shots, etc. and I basically choked. I had what looked like the perfect balance between fill flash and ambient light (at least the test shots I took of my DW had the look I was going for), using my 580EX and no diffuser. Well, the idiot that I am, I put my LSII on the flash for ALL the rest of the pics. I wasn't happy with the LSII in *any* test shot as I felt I could'nt get the right balance with it. Don't ask me why I had to put the *toy* on a the last minute but I did. In the words of the immortal Grinch-"I'm an Idiot!!!".

I'm embarrassed to even show these to the family, but I will and I must. I'll probably offer to re-shoot at least some of them on principal.

Anyway on to the dark and lifeless 'Mongrel's First Family Portrait Crash and Burn 2005" sample gallery.....:rolleyes

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26850469-L.jpg


http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26818717-L.jpg

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26850473-L.jpg

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26850486-L.jpg


http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26850518-L.jpg


http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26852187-L.jpg


http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26852233-L.jpg


http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26818750-L.jpg


Probably one of the 'better' ones...

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26819039-L.jpg



Obviously, I'm pretty unhappy with the above (actually that's a rank understatement). Believe it or not ALL of the above *were* shot with flash!

Below are three 'test snaps' to show the difference with the 580EX WITHOUT the LSII. This is much closer to what I had in mind as far as how I wanted the lighting...

http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26856911-L.jpg


http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26856915-L.jpg


http://mongrel.smugmug.com/photos/26856913-L.jpg

The last one I especially like. Note also that the last three shots I have only applied a tiny bit of USM, while all of the former shots were shot in RAW and required exposure compensation, levels, color tweaking, and sharpening. This is a great lesson about getting the shot right 'out of the camera'.

I have to run and pickup my daughter, but I be back to give a short lecture on how to avoid this AND also dealing with a large group of people.

Thanks,

Mongrel-the rank snapshooter :rolleyes

[Angelo]

Mongrel: I don't see anything all that terrible about your first post, although not ideal.

But I can't help but grab a handy 2x4 and hit you over the head... you let them all wear WHITE!!!!?????

The least flattering, most diffcult, most problematic color possible is the one you allowed them to wear - YIKES!!!!!!! you're a brave man.

I'm sorry you're not happy with the project.

[Mongrel]

thanks for the reply, I really do appreciate it.

Yea, I know-WHITE :rolleyes :wxwax

The 2X4 would be too merciful.

Actually, the white was the customer's idea. From what I've seen in the two pro studios near me, white is *very* popular. In fact, every window in the one studio has a large family portrait with all the family members in the white\khaki color combo. I did watch the histogram and checked for blow outs on every shot. I figured I would bump up the exposure in RAW until it was right.

What kills me is the flash situation though. Without the fill flash they just look dead to me. Post processing is my weakest skill (after poor flash technique I guess...), and I just don't know any fancy stuff to recover these.

The advice on positioning, and depth of field was all right-on. I got everyone in the shot and in focus. Sadly, I didn't adjust the DOF for the smaller group shots and wound up without properly blurred backgrounds.

In the end, I am learning.

Thanks again for your reply and concern,

Mongrel

[ziggy53]

Mongrel,


You are waaay toooo hard on yourself. An "idiot" would try to justify what they had done as "art" or something.

I agree that you would have been better off with the flash alone, or possibly with a reflector card. The LSII just has too much light loss for much use outdoors (too much dispersion and scatter.) While the LSII does pretty well indoors, it's mostly a catchlight outdoors.

I don't see any eye-sockets that are true black, so it looks like you could still create another exposure, from RAW, to use as a layer to provide some additional brightness for the shadows. You could probably gain another half-stop without any problem. It'll take some work, but reveal the layer slowly with circular and arc motion, and you should be OK.

ziggy53

[Andy]

i agree with the others... you're pretty hard on yourself, mongrel... you did well under the circumstances, and you realized your mistake and won't make it again :lol3 ... i think that these can be improved still... if you linky the originals i betcha we could work on 'em together :deal

[Mongrel]

Ziggy and Andy for taking the time to respond and to be so encouraging. I'm truly thankful for the Dgrin 'family' and your willlingness to help me out with this (and many other things as well!) :thumb

I'm short on time today, as many of us are, but I'll throw some original RAWs up on my smug page and link to them here.

I already boosted the exposure up to two stops in RAW to get them to where they are. I basically know NOTHING about using layers :rolleyes , so be patient with me there :uhoh .

I did find out something interesting when I re-installed my Phase One C1 LE RAW converter. I really think that LE did a superior job on these shots compared to Raw Shooter and Canon's DPP 1.6. I plan on trying to do them all over again using C1 LE. C1 seems to render the color and sharpness much better and more accurately. I can't stand the mottled look I'm seeing.

Also, as far as post processing advice, I should let you know that I'm using (or have available) the following programs:

Paint Shop Pro 9
Elements 3.0 (with Hidden Elements)
Raw Shooter
Canon DPP 1.6
Phase One C1 LE

So, if something comes to mind using any of the above I'd appreciate it much.

Again, I really want to emphasize how much it means to me to get your input on this and the time it takes to do so. Normally I find it difficult to seek advice, but your gratiousness is making it easier to admit I need it :D

Well, I'm off to do the 'picnic' thing in a few moments. I'll be back later today.

Thanks again to all,

Mongrel

[erich6]

Mongrel,

I'm sure the wizards of Dgrin here will be able to help out. I think there's still some room for improvement using your existing shots. I tried a bit of soft focus and shadow/highlight treatment in Photoshop to get the following.

http://hbphoto.smugmug.com/photos/27309052-L.jpg (http://hbphoto.smugmug.com/)

This was quick and dirty so I didn't spend much time trying to get the color cast just right. You can also use a bit of dodging here and there to lighten up shadows on the subjects.

Erich

[photocat]

I like 3 and five... Five looks interesting because you can put them in a circle from the balcony to the house. or half a circle I should say. The little porch might give some nice light, of course I have no idea wether 18 people would fit in that porch...
Still, I think that the backdrop of the porch onto the house is a nice one, especially if they want the house in...

3 looks like a nice outside spot with enough shade... I would trust shade more then strong 2 AM light... Again I have no clue about 18 people fitting in that area. I don't like the side part on the other side unless you could hide the neigbours with people in your group.

I am reading this thread with a lot of intrest cause I will have groupshot on a 50 anniversary in october, with probably even more then 18 people...

I had no clue about the planning up front, but now I see how that one can make a huge difference and the fact that the shoot will be succesful or not.

Thanks Mongrel for asking the question, and thanks to the others for the answers. I am reading and reading... give us more!!!

[photocat]

I like 3 and five... Five looks interesting because you can put them in a circle from the balcony to the house. or half a circle I should say. The little porch might give some nice light, of course I have no idea wether 18 people would fit in that porch...
Still, I think that the backdrop of the porch onto the house is a nice one, especially if they want the house in...

3 looks like a nice outside spot with enough shade... I would trust shade more then strong 2 AM light... Again I have no clue about 18 people fitting in that area. I don't like the side part on the other side unless you could hide the neigbours with people in your group.

I am reading this thread with a lot of intrest cause I will have groupshot on a 50 anniversary in october, with probably even more then 18 people...

I had no clue about the planning up front, but now I see how that one can make a huge difference and the fact that the shoot will be succesful or not.

Thanks Mongrel for asking the question, and thanks to the others for the answers. I am reading and reading... give us more!!!
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Bugger bugger, I am way too late here. I had no idea that this thread was going further then I thought, so I missed the actual shoot and more suggestions. This must have been a tremendous job and I must say that I like your setup... Everyone is sharp, no silly faces, no strange poses.
I think you handled it rather well Mongrel. The two red chairs bring in some extra color and add a pleasant touch.

With all the tips going on here, I wonder if I am equipped enough because I have no external flashes. I have my nikon D70, different lenses but that is about it...
My question is as of this moment: Is it possible to do group shots outside without flash or is this an illusion?

Thanks again Mongrel for having started this thread, learning curve is fast and furious here on my side...
Thanks also to all the contributing (I believe they call it) people with their advize.

What happens if after reading a thread like this you sigh and say to self that this is NOT going to work... stick to your earlier promises to self to not do important shots for other people and keep in mind that self is not a pro????

When can you be confident enough to think that you will not ruin it? Guess I will never get there...

[Mongrel]

sheesshhh! What a week :rolleyes

Just stopping back to say 'thanks' again. :thumb

I decided to just let the pics fly 'as-is'. I spent about two days (in between a ramped up work schedule and visiting family from Norway that I haven't seen in four years) re-working the pics. Man, my head and eyes hurt.

Well, I WILL be back to answer Photcat's questions and to give a synopsis of what I learned and all that bru-ha-ha.

TO ALL:

Please don't underestimate the value of the Dgrin Community! Protect it, nurture it, and cherish it.

Thanks,

Mongrel

[pathfinder]

I agree with Angelo and Ziggy. I think that you are too hard on yourself. You have some very nice group posing here. :thumb

The LSII did NOT provide enough light outside to over power the existing light when shooting at these distances leaving you with some shadows remaining. You might get by with the LSII for a portrait at 3 or 4 feet in late afternoon sunlight. That is why the shots of your wife were better - without the LSII your strobe had more pop ( less difusion though) and did not have the mottled look of the existing lighting.

I have learned of the terrors of mottled lighting several times, so don't feel bad. If you had shot without any flash at all it would have been a lot worse. And the white shirts made it even harder unless you set your exposure with some +EC. Overall for your first outdoor group shot in the chosen setting, I think you did a very credible job. Much better than a snapshot to my eye. And you learned something and will do even better in the future.

For a group that large out of doors, I might have tried to use two strobes - one on camera as the master but less powerful light and one off camera up higher on a light stand that is the stronger than the on camera flash. Some reflectors held low might be usefull also.

I think this has been a very interesting thread and should be considered for a hall of fame shot about out door lighting. I am sure many other readers can profit from this thread also.

I have been dragooned to shoot my niece's wedding in a few weeks - so you all will get a chance to see if I am just all talk about this, or if I can walk the walk also :lol3 :lol3 That is why I have been reviewing this thead :thumb

Any suggestions about group posing in weddings will be gratefully accepted. My plan is to pick my backgrounds and set my lighting up before I bring in the victims. Will this work? :D