Open letter to those "PayPal Fees Extra" people [Sitemap]

Photog4Christ

Jul-09-2009, 05:59 AM

RogersDA

Jul-09-2009, 07:29 AM

To people that sell stuff on here and then say "PayPal Fees Extra":

PayPal fees are just a part of doing business. This is something you should be absorbing as a business person. If you sell a print to a client, do you tell them that it will be extra for PayPal?

How about pricing with the fee in mind? Charge $x for the lens you are selling here on DGrin instead of $y.

I don't know about PayPal's TOS, but credit card companies (VISA, MC, AMEX, Discover) do not allow merchants to pass along any kind of fee to the consumer. If you have a PayPal business account (not a personal account) I'm sure it's the same case.

Just something to think about. Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. :)

-NealWell, some people pay in-person. Some people pay with check. And some people pay in cash. This is the way that sellers can offer a price for those that pay alternative ways, and recoup the costs of using Paypal/Google Checkout. So if you lived near a seller, and you met-up and paid in cash for an expensive lens/body you wouldn't want to pay the seller's mark-up for accounting for Paypal/Google Checkout fees. Ther same goes for shipping charges.

Art Scott

Jul-09-2009, 07:42 AM

To people that sell stuff on here and then say "PayPal Fees Extra":

I don't know about PayPal's TOS, but credit card companies (VISA, MC, AMEX, Discover) do not allow merchants to pass along any kind of fee to the consumer. If you have a PayPal business account (not a personal account) I'm sure it's the same case.

Just something to think about. Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. :)

-Neal

Actually the only thing a merchant can no longer do is post a sign or advertise that by paying with CC there will be a surcharge of xxxx% to cover cost of card processing......however Iknow several merchants that post signs due to increase in CC processing fees we now have a minimun amount that can be charged on CC....any order under the minimum will be charged the minimum amount of $XX.XX........

CC processing fees are one the "HIDDEN" charges in yor cost of buying with a CC........

Iknow several merchants that when the amount of bad checks got overwhelming they put in CC machines and then raised all the prices in their stores to reflect this increase in doing business.....just like 99.9% of the merchants raised prices when Petro made huge jumps....but the same merchants do not lower prices when Petro prices drop.......

So yes they do charge us for the privialge of using plastic to make a purchase.....I don't mind because i do not have to ever carry cash anymore................

ChatKat

Jul-09-2009, 07:47 AM

It's in your merchant agreement fine print You are not allowed to add fees to the bill when you accept Visa, Mastercard or Amex. They can take your merchant account away for doing that.

You can however, discount if people pay you in cash!

Photog4Christ

Jul-09-2009, 07:47 AM

Actually the only thing a merchant can no longer do is post a sign or advertise that by paying with CC there will be a surcharge of xxxx% to cover cost of card processing......however Iknow several merchants that post signs due to increase in CC processing fees we now have a minimun amount that can be charged on CC....any order under the minimum will be charged the minimum amount of $XX.XX........

Actually, that's against your merchant agreement too.

But let's face it. As a photographer, I certainly hope you are not selling anything below the "$20 minimum charge" that I see some retailers post. :)

DoctorIt

Jul-09-2009, 11:34 AM

...I don't know about PayPal's TOS...I can't find the thread right now, but this has definitely come up in this forum in the past. I believe the answer was, yes, indeed, sellers can't mark up for paypal fees.

That being said, this is a peer-peer marketplace, not a storefront. Things here are done, hopefully, on a more personal and individual basis. On most days I agree with you, it is annoying to read through an ad (and lets face it, I read lots of them :lol3), see the price, think the price is good, only to see the "fine print". But of course, on other days, as mentioned above, in non-store, individual transaction, you can't really expect the price to be same for cross-country and next-door deals.

But anyway, interesting to see some discussion, for a change, in this forum.

Toshido

Jul-09-2009, 12:21 PM

It's all semantics when it comes down to it.

Would you be just as upset if people offered a 3% discount for alternative payment methods?

Cygnus Studios

Jul-09-2009, 01:07 PM

It's all semantics when it comes down to it.

Would you be just as upset if people offered a 3% discount for alternative payment methods?

Totally agree. Offer a cash-check-money order discount and you have no worries about whether you are adding fees to cover the C.C. payments.

Photog4Christ

Jul-09-2009, 01:55 PM

Totally agree. Offer a cash-check-money order discount and you have no worries about whether you are adding fees to cover the C.C. payments.

Silly question, but wouldn't that be a disguised credit card surcharge?

Toshido

Jul-09-2009, 07:46 PM

Then again I don't really see the big deal. We are only talking 3%. Unless it is a huge monetary value just deal with it.
Me myself, I would rather just absorb the cost on anything less than a $1000, just not worth the hassles and penny pinching.

Vanquiz

Jul-09-2009, 07:53 PM

Silly question, but wouldn't that be a disguised credit card surcharge?
That's quite true actually, let's just see it some people say half empty, some say half full ...

1. Lens for sale, $1000, please add 3% if pay with paypal
2. Lens for sale, $1030, if pay with cash/money order, get $30 discount

But, let's just say, if I want to sell the lens for $1030 shipped and paypal included, and if the buyer paying with money order for whatever reason, wouldnt they be a little happier they get some discount ?

Photog4Christ

Jul-09-2009, 09:41 PM

Everyone has valid points, but my point is that you agreed to the fine print (whether you read it or not) when you set up your PayPal/Merchant account.

PayPal says:

4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any
other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a
handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long
as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher
than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

Vanquiz

Jul-09-2009, 10:17 PM

Everyone has valid points, but my point is that you agreed to the fine print (whether you read it or not) when you set up your PayPal/Merchant account.

PayPal says:

That's true ..

That's why everytime I sell something, usually I put one price shipped and paypalled ...

I only give discount for local pickup, because I dont have to bother with the packaging and shipping ...

But if I buy something, and if the seller add 3% or whatever to cover paypal fee, even though technically that's violating paypal terms, it doesnt really bother me as well, since I do understand from their point of view, especially for stuff over $1000, the fee could means something, plus, as buyer, we can always make an offer for lower price ...

Pupator

Jul-10-2009, 04:12 AM

It is a violation of your Paypal user agreement (https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/UserAgreement/ua/USUA-outside) to impose a surcharge for accepting payments with Paypal.

4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

EDIT: Sorry Neal - missed where you had posted this two spots up!
That's true ..

That's why everytime I sell something, usually I put one price shipped and paypalled ...

I think that's the best way to do it anyway - people like to see their total "out the door" price. It gives them less time to change their mind too!

Moogle Pepper

Jul-10-2009, 07:09 AM

I'm a paypalled and shipped kinda guy. But if there is a nearby buyer, I do discount that from the price of the item I am selling. I don't like added fees either, so I leave it as a flat price that includes the "paypal fee" and shipping.

photobug

Jul-10-2009, 07:54 AM

PayPal fees are just a part of doing business. This is something you should be absorbing as a business person. I think right there is where you are going off-track. DGrin is predominantly peer-to-peer, individual photographers doing a little horse-trading. The fallacy in your opening statement is that folks advertise in the Horse Trading (I mean "Flea Market") forum as a business. In general, I do not believe that's the case -- we'll all just fellow photographers swapping some excess gear.

I've bought and sold quite a bit of equipment through DGrin over the years. Usually when I've sold, I've posted the same price regardless of payment method. Occasionally, for more expensive items, I've asked extra for PayPal or offered "will split PayPal fees". If you say that it's not fair for the buyer to pay all the PayPal charges, then is it any more fair for the seller to absorb them all (when it's an individual, not a business)?

When I sell something, of course I want to get fair value for the item I'm selling -- but I want the buyer to feel like s/he is getting good value, too, and don't want to charge a penny more than necessary -- hence, can offer a better deal for the buyer if PayPal isn't used.

All that said, in my experience PayPal ends up being the payment method of choice about 90% of the time.

...On clarification is needed here -- PayPal does not automatically mean "3% fees". That assumption isn't quite accurate. There are TWO kinds of PayPal accounts -- one in which all transactions are free (but credit cards aren't accepted) and one in which PayPal charges approx 3% on all transactions (and credit cards are accepted). The confusing thing is that PayPal charges NOT based on whether a credit card is used or not, but based on which account type is used! So I keep *two* PayPal accounts, one which accepts credit cards (but charges ~3%) and another which accepts all other forms of payment with zero service charges. That way if I sell something, the customer can pay by non-credit-card means through PayPal and there are no fees involved for anyone (but I have to give a different PayPal email address, depending on payment method).

...credit card companies (VISA, MC, AMEX, Discover) do not allow merchants to pass along any kind of fee to the consumer. If you have a PayPal business account (not a personal account) I'm sure it's the same case. Apparently PayPal does have this requirement, although I was not previously aware of it. So I'll never ask extra for PayPal again (but might discount for non-credit-card payments ;-)).

In the end, probably the most practical suggestion is to either have a single asking price regardless of payment method, or for more expensive items to post a PayPal price and offer a discount for cash.

p.s. you could raise all the same questions about whether a seller includes shipping charges in the asking price, or not. It would be the same conversation all over again.

Don Kondra

Jul-10-2009, 10:54 AM

For me, I find the nickel and dimes thingee annoying. Just give me a total please :wink

Of course I'm in Canada and my only option is paypal and shipped, selling or buying.

With a little experience and/or research, it becomes obvious what the shipping costs are, a lens is $10-15, a camera is ~$25, etc.

Perhaps what it boils down to is making the item for sale as attractive as possible and the buying experience as easy as possible.

For me, that is seeing a total selling price.

Cheers, Don

Pupator

Jul-11-2009, 05:48 AM

p.s. you could raise all the same questions about whether a seller includes shipping charges in the asking price, or not. It would be the same conversation all over again.

Not quite the same conversation since adding shipping charges aren't a violation of any user agreements. :deal

dcabarle

Jul-17-2009, 06:11 AM

Many gas stations in NJ have a CC price and Gas price. This is usually a 10 cent per gallon difference.

photobug

Jul-17-2009, 01:04 PM

Many gas stations in NJ have a CC price and Gas price. This is usually a 10 cent per gallon difference.It is quite common in California, also. They must get away with it by saying that it's a "discount for cash payment", rather than a surcharge for credit-card payment.

Art Scott

Jul-17-2009, 02:05 PM

Photog4Christ

Jul-17-2009, 05:05 PM

Just left a lapidary store that has a large sign posted.....NO CC ACCEPTED FOR UNDER $20 ..........owner said that withthe rising cost of doing business with a CC company she just afford to allow charges of small amounts less than..........it is becoming common to see CC limits now in this region................

I completely understand where she is coming from and why she might have that posted, but she signed her merchant agreement and her merchant agreement says she can't do that.

Years ago, I went to a guitar shop to buy a guitar. I put a guitar on layaway. I made partial payments on the guitar, but still didn't pay the guitar off enough to get it out of layaway. I later discovered that a friend of mine worked at another guitar store, so I wanted to buy from him. So, I went back to "Store A" and asked for my money back and that I was not going to purchase the guitar. The owner of the store pointed to the sign that said "NO REFUNDS".

Long story short.... The state has a layaway law. I called the Office of Consumer Affairs and complained.... I ended up getting my money back. So, just because someone has a sign that says something ("NO REFUNDS", "NO CREDIT CARDS FOR PURCHASES UNDER $20", "YOU BREAK IT YOU BUY IT", etc....) doesn't really mean that's the case.

Seymore

Jul-20-2009, 01:21 AM

Pupator

Jul-22-2009, 06:48 AM

Neal... It's called a "free market economy" because people are FREE to ask what they want any way they want. Now, doesn't mean you HAVE to agree, but this is the sellers prerogative to ask what they want. If you don't like someone price, you don't have to buy from them.

If there were LAWS banning this, you might have a foot to stand on with this... but IMPO, you don't and PP would really have a hard time enforcing ALL their rules on everyone who "violated" them.

Yep. We're (whoever "we" are) free not to buy from sellers that violate their Paypal User Agreement and even (if we wanted to) to report them to Paypal. Paypal would then be free to close their account.

This part isn't directed at Seymore - this is just a general observation.

We live in an interesting age when people don't feel obligated to honor their agreements unless their actions would be otherwise illegal. Remember the days when a man's word was enough to know that he'd keep his agreement? Now even 10 page legal documents called User Agreements aren't enough to convince people they should act how they agreed to act when they signed up for the service.

(Marriage too, right? "...for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do us part." Since a divorce isn't illegal people really don't feel the need to stand by those words.)

Ric Grupe

Jul-22-2009, 07:52 AM

Remember the days when a man's word was enough to know that he'd keep his agreement?

Yeah.....it sure was a lot easier to cheat and beat back in those days. Seems like you just can't get away with anything anymore.:rofl

Spoken like an honest man, a dying breed methinks.:cry

Photog4Christ

Jul-22-2009, 08:19 AM

If you have a driver's license, you agree to abide by the motor vehicle code. Of course, you don't have to abide by it and if you don't on a regular basis, you'll eventually be caught and penalized. Same thing with merchant accounts. You don't have to abide by the agreement that you agreed to follow when you signed up for an account, but eventually you'll end up getting caught and penalized.

I guess the choice is up to you.

Ditto to everything Pupator said.

davev

Jul-22-2009, 09:09 AM

Pupator

Jul-22-2009, 09:23 AM

Getting back on topic, I'd rather see a total price, if you're paying in a different way other than paypal,
use PM's to haggle that part of the deal.

Quick, what's the paypal charge on something that's $675.00?

For those who aren't familiar with it - Paypal also offers the ability to send an e-check. It takes 3 days to clear (usually) instead of the instant transfer, but the maximum fee on e-checks is, I think, $3.50. I frequently use them to reduce fees.

DoctorIt

Apr-29-2010, 05:26 AM

This has come up again, so I just added a short blurb to the guidelines (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=70336#post70336).

Tom Abbott

Apr-29-2010, 06:09 AM

FWIW: I quote a price that will be net to me. If expense is incurred for shipping, payment method, customs, etc. the buyer is on notice that I would not be paying those amounts.

Art Scott

Apr-29-2010, 06:50 AM

FWIW: I quote a price that will be net to me. If expense is incurred for shipping, payment method, customs, etc. the buyer is on notice that I would not be paying those amounts.

As a buyer I could care less of the net amount the seller wants....as a buyer I want to know TOTAL cost to get item to my door.......so when a seller posts and says the price does not include PP fees, shipping etc etc.....I will send one email asking for total costs and if the seller jacks up shipping costs and other fees....we don't do business.........I also follow my own rules when selling.....price shown is total and since I use UsPS mostly then that price will get item to any US City even in Hi and Ak......outside US will cost more and I have that amount in 24 hrours for int't buyers....

Remember if using PayPal it is against their rules to say "you need to add so many % for PayPal fees to cost" .....also it is against PayPal rules to ask to be paid as a gift for ANY ITEM being SOLD. PayPal gifting is for just that Gift Money like: Birthdays, Valentines day, Buddhas Birthday, Chinese New Year, Moms Day, Dads day, etc etc.............

Pupator

May-06-2010, 10:39 AM

I agree 100% with Art. Why would I care what "net to the seller" is? When you do that, you're opening yourself up to hassle about how much you're charging for shipping and Paypal fees. Just do the math yourself. Priority Mail boxes are very helpful for determining shipping costs. The only extra I ever offer is if someone wants insurance. Delivery confirmation (included in the price) protects me - insurance protects them, so if they want it I say up front that it's $xx extra.

PhotoLasVegas

May-20-2010, 01:45 PM

Please see:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=1390439#post1390439

This is a $1300+ transaction that the seller is requesting payment via PayPal Gift, which circumvents the Seller/Buyer Protection policy of PayPal - in other words, the seller is asking the buyer to "Gift" money to him - and if he doesn't ship the item, there's NO RECOURSE WHATSOEVER. After all, the money was a GIFT, right?

Again I hope I'm not beating a dead horse, but if dGrin continues to allow sellers to add PayPal fees or, as in the case of this sales thread, allow only PayPal Gift as payment, I can almost guarantee there will be liability issues down the road.

DoctorIt

May-21-2010, 06:10 AM

Please see:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=1390439#post1390439
I have moved this post from "requests to mods" thread as this is a point of discussion, not a true dgrin issue.

As has been stated, in this thread, and in our policies, Dgrin does not/will not police how people exchange their money. It is not our business.

We appreciate your efforts to protect people, and welcome your discussion.

PhotoLasVegas

May-21-2010, 12:37 PM

Really? Because in your PM to me you asked me to "tone down" trying to protect people.

Truly I couldn't care less - at this point I'm just sitting back waiting for someone to be scammed and then attempt to sue the moderators for their inaction. It's great entertainment.

Myself, I'm smart enough to not get scammed. But I find it funny that you guys claim to have researched "multiple times" and determined you won't need to even slightly police your classifieds.. your research must be much different than mine, because EVERY other forum I'm active on - from car forums to computer forums to photo forums - have basic rules set up that are designed to provide even a slight amount of protection to their users. Heck MOST of the forums I'm a member of require a VERIFICATION process to even make a for sale post.. yet your stance is that anyone can post anything at any time, even if it clearly is a dangerous transaction and even if it blatantly allows the TOS of other sites (ie. PayPal) to be violated.

Even if "legally" you have no requirement to offer even the slightest bit of protection - then obviously this stance shows your moral disregard for your members.

I mean, really... how hard would it be to have a rule for posting in the classifieds which simply states that all sales threads must not violate the TOS of any money transfer services?

Hell, the post a couple posts before my request (on the "request to moderators" thread) asked you guys to CORRECT A TYPO... that was done instantly... no problem, glad to help.. yet the members are at risk of being scammed for $1300 and you tell me to "tone down" my efforts to "protect everyone"?

Interesting priorities, huh?

holzphoto

May-21-2010, 12:53 PM

it is against paypal's user terms to charge the extra fees.

as far as gift option, it is against paypal's terms to accept the gift option for goods. they are cracking down on this as well starting on june 4th and will cancel accounts if you are caught doing this.

paypal gift option puts the seller at risk anyhow.

gecko0

May-21-2010, 02:13 PM

I can completely understand the desire to have dgrin "protect its members" from scammers, but not concerned myself. Buyer beware is good enough. I don't see how a free, public, open forum should be expected to police itself when an adult wants to buy something online. Use your own common sense, same as you would for any other online purchase. Seller too new? Don't buy from them. Seller offering "too good" of a deal? Don't buy from them. Seller wants to transfer via PP Gift? Don't buy from them. Transfer via Nigeria first, then to a Zurich account, then Western Union? lol....you get the idea.

Art Scott

May-21-2010, 02:22 PM

GadgetRick

May-23-2010, 01:37 PM

Although I agree people shouldn't be, "charging extra for pp fees," I don't get in an uproar about it.

More importantly, I'm on LOTS of boards where LOTS of stuff gets sold. Not one board has any kind of policing about something like pp fees or gift payments. I don't think it's up to Dgrin--or any other board for that matter--to do this. It's up to pp (in this case) to police their own customers. I don't see any liability issues the way they (Dgrin) do business now. In fact, my guess is any kind of mention of this sort of thing would open Dgrin to more problems as they would imply they have facilities/procedures in place to police this sort of thing.

I think this whole thread is making a big deal out of nothing.

DoctorIt

May-24-2010, 08:06 AM

Truly I couldn't care less - at this point I'm just sitting back waiting for someone to be scammed and then attempt to sue the moderators for their inaction. It's great entertainment.Clearly you do care, however, I am not the only one that has asked you, politely, to leave it alone. Our terms our clear, and this has been in the guidelines since April 29, when this discussion first re-appeared:
Please be aware: It is a violation of your PayPal user agreement (https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US#4.%20Receiving%20Money.) to impose a surcharge (Section 4.5). Price your items accordingly, offer options if desired. That is all DGrin has to say on the matter.

angevin1

May-31-2010, 05:36 AM

Really?.................................... "tone down" trying to protect people.

at this point I'm just sitting back waiting for someone to be scammed and then attempt to sue the moderators for their inaction. It's great entertainment.

Myself, I'm smart enough to not get scammed.

Even if "legally" you have no requirement to offer even the slightest bit of protection - then obviously this stance shows your moral disregard for your members.

yet the members are at risk of being scammed for $1300 and you tell me to "tone down" my efforts to "protect everyone"?

Interesting priorities, huh?

Protect People? You cannot protect us from our mis-judgments. Case in point? Last week I worked a trade with someone and sent my piece as agreed and he was supposed to send his to me. I sent mine, he got it said it didn't work, then supposedly did as I suggested and went to a Store to try my piece on another compatible product, still he said it didn't work. He shipped it back to me and of course, it still works just fine! He never sent me the trade piece, so in essence he saved me having to pay to send it back, but overall He and I both know he lied, and was dishonest on his end. Also everyone ought to agree I was darned lucky to get my piece back! Whew! Close one. And it was a poor judgment call on my part...So no! You cannot protect me from my own poor judgment!

So if I hadn't gotten my piece back, what then? I can assure you I'd let the Mods know. But I wouldn't at all expect anyone to be responsible for my own poor judgment.

I disagree with your Statement regarding DGRIN's Moral-disregard for members here. I just don't see evidence for it. In fact I see an atmosphere that sends a Moral message to "do the right thing!" Morals are all about ethics. And basically, when a person is a regular on THIS forum, he/she leaves a trail of text from which you can then pull from to make a judgment call about their overall Moral character. At least that's what I do if I become ambivalent about joining a discourse on a touchy subject, or if I am considering buying from them.

In my case above I took a Moral leap of faith, which was cheap $$ in cost and Deep in value!

If I had lost that lens______ Who knows what recourse I'd have attempted. I do know I would never have held anyone other than ME & the other party responsible. And On a personal front I don't want the Mods or Dgrin or whoever to be responsible somehow.....You just cannot legislate ethics.

As for the Simple argument presented about PP fees and Shipping extra/Net to me, etc: A simple PM offer of " Will you take $$$ for it Shipped and PP with Insurance to me?" will typically get you where you want: a total!

Or like it says in the Sticky..."Don't like the deal, Move on!" ( para-phrasing).