Choosing a Canon mount dSLR

[cmr164]

So it is time to think about replacing my dSLR. Since I still have 3 'L' lenses and since I will continue to use my DCS520 as a 2nd body, a Canon mount is definite.

The choices:

6MP Digital Rebel (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=297501&is=REG)

6MP Canon 10D (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=277768&is=REG)

8MP EOS-1D Mark II (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=316692&is=REG)

14MP DCS Pro SLR/c (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=326234&is=REG)

You will note that I am capping at $5k so the $8k 11MP EOS-1Ds (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=266188&is=REG) is not in the running.

Money does matter!! So I am looking for feedback from owners as well as opinions about the value of various features. Is a 10D with a 300mm f2.8L IS a better buy than a EOS-1D Mark II?

Lenses that I have: 17-35 f2.8L , 50 f1.8 , 85 f1.2L , 100-400 f4-5.6 L IS

Lenses I would like: 24-70 f2.8L , 70-200 f2.8L IS , 300 f2.8L IS (note)

tough decisions and choices....

#note: I would probably sell the 100-400 if I got the 70-200 or the 300

[bham]

I have the 10D and am very happy with it. I think the main question is weather you shoot sports? The fps rate and burst rate of the 1D Mark II is hard to beat but is it worth the extra $3k, when you could spend that on lenses, cards, etc. This is a question that only you can answer. The 2MP difference isn't that big to me. I know some pro photographers that are still total film or only have one DSLR and it is only 4MP. Another one borrows a 10D here and there. Just my two cents worth.

Hopes this helps.

[wxwax]

To me, the 1DmkII is the standard for general use. Great pictures, great speed, great build. The 10D has autofocus issues in low light, I believe, and a slow burst rate.

Since it makes no sense for someone with my experience and skills to spend $4500 on a body, I'm going for a used 1D. I hope to eventually graduate to the mkII or its successor.

I see no harm in buying used, BTW.

Lenses (all bought used):
*16-35 2.8L
*24-70 2.8L
*50 1.4
*70-200 2.8L IS
*300 4.0L IS (a mistake, I think, but we'll see.)

[Shakey]

I am seriously contemplating a Digital rebel , A 10D would be nice as well.
Why? Well I have a Canon Rebel SLR with 35-105 EF lens. So there is a major plus for a me to stay in the Canon family.
My question is... Do you think prices are going to plummet on these?

By next spring will a D rebel and the 10D be hundreds less? I think it will.

What do you all think?


My reasoning is that any "tech" device always does drop to more reasonable levels after a short buying craze.

Or am I the one who is crazed here?


Tim

[tmshots]

I am seriously contemplating a Digital rebel , A 10D would be nice as well.
Why? Well I have a Canon Rebel SLR with 35-105 EF lens. So there is a major plus for a me to stay in the Canon family.
My question is... Do you think prices are going to plummet on these?

By next spring will a D rebel and the 10D be hundreds less? I think it will.

What do you all think?


My reasoning is that any "tech" device always does drop to more reasonable levels after a short buying craze.

Or am I the one who is crazed here?


TimThe differences in the Rebel vs the 10D are the body and its style of gripping. If you plan on taking it out more ruggedly then I would go with the 10d but if you just plan on shooting under care and ease then the rebel is fine. The differences in the two are body and $500 bucks. As for price, everything always drops in this game. I bought an RCA 1.5mp in 98 for 600 and we all know how fast that dropped. (Darn me!) I prefer the feel of the 10d and so held out for that. But that is as they would compare owning a gun, it has to fit you.

[wxwax]

Tim, I suspect the price of a used 10D and drebel will plummet (they already have.) But I also suspect that camera makers are establishing price niches which will hold for a while longer. If that's so, then the drebel or 10D replacement will cost about the same, and the current models will simply vanish from the product line. :dunno

[DoctorIt]

To me, the 1DmkII is the standard for general use. Great pictures, great speed, great build. The 10D has autofocus issues in low light, I believe, and a slow burst rate.

Since it makes no sense for someone with my experience and skills to spend $4500 on a body, I'm going for a used 1D. I hope to eventually graduate to the mkII or its successor.

I see no harm in buying used, BTW.

Lenses (all bought used):

*16-35 2.8L
*24-70 2.8L
*50 1.4
*70-200 2.8L IS
*300 4.0L IS (a mistake, I think, but we'll see.)
So you wanna send over that 300mm?... since its gonna be a big mistake, oh yeah... not to mention you don't even have a body to mount it on yet... temporarily... of course

:wink

I'm beginning to really dislike you mr. waxy. You have the best monitor in the business, and without an SLR body you already have better glass than me. I'm gonna go pout in a corner now if you don't mind. Either that or go find a real job...

[DoctorIt]

Oh right, the thread...

I love my Drebel, it takes great shots, but I already wish I had the extra bit more control over AF and metering that the 10D would give me. But of course, at the time, it was $500 more and NO lens to even get started with. If I had a little more "extra" money right now, I could still sell the Drebel for decent coin and upgrade to a used 10d.

CMR - I think you can clearly cross the Drebel off your list, I think your skills are already above it.

I vote for the Kodak - Nikon quality body and innards and a cannon mount. Sweeeeet! How could you go wrong? :D

[cmr164]

Oh right, the thread...

CMR - I think you can clearly cross the Drebel off your list, I think your skills are already above it.

I vote for the Kodak - Nikon quality body and innards and a cannon mount. Sweeeeet! How could you go wrong? :D
Well the Kodak is certainly looking like a contender. Aside from the fact that Kodak does the s/w and firmware side better than Canon/Nikon/etc, it does seem as if the SLR/c is a very fine camera. (based on the Sigma SD10 not the Nikon) Outback review (http://www.outbackphoto.com/reviews/equipment/kodak_SLRc/Kodak_SLRc.html) That is not to say that everything is perfect. For example with that high an MP count, the burst rate is not that good.

[Bryan]

Oh right, the thread...

I love my Drebel, it takes great shots, but I already wish I had the extra bit more control over AF and metering that the 10D would give me. But of course, at the time, it was $500 more and NO lens to even get started with. If I had a little more "extra" money right now, I could still sell the Drebel for decent coin and upgrade to a used 10d.

CMR - I think you can clearly cross the Drebel off your list, I think your skills are already above it.

I vote for the Kodak - Nikon quality body and innards and a cannon mount. Sweeeeet! How could you go wrong? :D
the thing that kind of bugs me about the rebel as well is mirror lock. From what I read, the movement in the Rebel's mirror can cause issues with long exposures. IF I had the skills and money I would want the 10d.

[mercphoto]

the thing that kind of bugs me about the rebel as well is mirror lock. From what I read, the movement in the Rebel's mirror can cause issues with long exposures. IF I had the skills and money I would want the 10d.
How long is long? I took San Antonio River Walk photos on Sunday, on a tri-pod, with remote shutter release, and 4-5 second exposures. The quality of the water surface is neat at long exposures, and my image looks very sharp. Digital Rebel, using the EFS lens from the kit.

[DoctorIt]

the thing that kind of bugs me about the rebel as well is mirror lock. From what I read, the movement in the Rebel's mirror can cause issues with long exposures. IF I had the skills and money I would want the 10d.Bah, that should be the least of your worries with the Drebel, really. I've taken 30 minute star trails with it:

http://doctorit.smugmug.com/photos/3328700-M.jpg

And how often do you really do that anyway? Much more annoying is the lack of ability to set your metering to spot, or even matrix as you please. You are stuck with whatever your set mode gives you.

[tmlphoto]

I've been very happy with my 10D. I don't think I would pony up the extra dough for the Mark II unless I was really shooting alot of action shots. I don't really think that the extra 2 megapixels would make that much difference. I think that the extra $500 dollars for the 10D v. the Rebel is worth it just for the ruggedness of the body. The rebel just does't feel like it would endure much abuse over time.

[cmr164]

10D vs 1DMII

multiplier ........ 1.6 ...vs... 1.3
pixels ............ 8.2m ...vs... 6.3m
Connect ........ USB ...vs... firewire/usb/video out
White Balance - 1DMII more flexible
Viewfinder ...... 95% ...vs... 100%
Focus Screen ... fixed ...vs... 9 interchangeable types
Mirror cutoff .... 600 ...vs... 1200mm lens
DoF Preview .... no? ...vs... button ( a useful composition aid)
Eyepiece shutter no? ...vs... builtin ( prevents eyepiece light from effecting long exposures)
AF ev range .... .5-18 ...vs... 0-18 (AF works in darker shots with 1DMII)
AF points ........ 7 ...vs... 45
Meter zones .... 45 ...vs... 21 (10d has more zones)
Meter modes ... centerweight ...vs... spot and some very complex multi spot modes that are very cool. (other modes shared by both)
Meter ev range . 1-20 ...vs... 0-20 (1DMII meters darker shots)
AEB range ...... +/-2 stops ...vs... +/-3 stops
Bracketing (1DMII) methods shutter, aperture, or ISO
Shutter speeds . 1/4000-30 ...vs... 1/8000-30
Self-timer ....... 10s ...vs... 10s or 2s
Flash (only 10D has a builtin flash)
Drive system (both have single & self-timer & continuous, 1DMII has 2 continuous speeds.
FPS ............... 3 fps ...vs... 3 or 8.5 fps
Max burst ...... 9 ...vs... 40 (or 20 in raw)
LCD size ........ 1.8" ...vs... 2.0"
LCD pixels ...... 118k ...vs... 230k
Languages ...... 12 (both same)
Voice annotation on 1DMII
Custom Funct... 17 ...vs... 21 plus 27 personal functions
Battery shots .. 650 ...vs... 1200
Weight (body) .. 790g ...vs... 1290g


The above is just from the specs, there are other diffs like the speed of AF and the shutter response time. And of course there are personal impressions. I would particularly like to here folks impressions from handling the cameras.

[wxwax]

So you wanna send over that 300mm?... since its gonna be a big mistake, oh yeah... not to mention you don't even have a body to mount it on yet... temporarily... of course

:wink

I'm beginning to really dislike you mr. waxy. You have the best monitor in the business, and without an SLR body you already have better glass than me. I'm gonna go pout in a corner now if you don't mind. Either that or go find a real job...

:rofl I'm willing to go the used route, otherwise all that glass would be too expensive.

[wxwax]

10D vs 1DMII


Weight (body) .. 790g ...vs... 1290g


The above is just from the specs, there are other diffs like the speed of AF and the shutter response time. And of course there are personal impressions. I would particularly like to here folks impressions from handling the cameras.


Nice list of stats, Charles. Re: handling, one that jumps out is the weight. To accept the mkII I suspect that one must consciously decide that one is willing to tote a much heavier camera. Other than that, the only barrier is the price. In pretty much every way, it's the more desirable camera, I should have thought.

[bham]

10D vs 1DMII

multiplier ........ 1.6 ...vs... 1.3
pixels ............ 8.2m ...vs... 6.3m
Connect ........ USB ...vs... firewire/usb/video out
White Balance - 1DMII more flexible
Viewfinder ...... 95% ...vs... 100%
Focus Screen ... fixed ...vs... 9 interchangeable types
Mirror cutoff .... 600 ...vs... 1200mm lens
DoF Preview .... no? ...vs... button ( a useful composition aid)
Eyepiece shutter no? ...vs... builtin ( prevents eyepiece light from effecting long exposures)
AF ev range .... .5-18 ...vs... 0-18 (AF works in darker shots with 1DMII)
AF points ........ 7 ...vs... 45
Meter zones .... 45 ...vs... 21 (10d has more zones)
Meter modes ... centerweight ...vs... spot and some very complex multi spot modes that are very cool. (other modes shared by both)
Meter ev range . 1-20 ...vs... 0-20 (1DMII meters darker shots)
AEB range ...... +/-2 stops ...vs... +/-3 stops
Bracketing (1DMII) methods shutter, aperture, or ISO
Shutter speeds . 1/4000-30 ...vs... 1/8000-30
Self-timer ....... 10s ...vs... 10s or 2s
Flash (only 10D has a builtin flash)
Drive system (both have single & self-timer & continuous, 1DMII has 2 continuous speeds.
FPS ............... 3 fps ...vs... 3 or 8.5 fps
Max burst ...... 9 ...vs... 40 (or 20 in raw)
LCD size ........ 1.8" ...vs... 2.0"
LCD pixels ...... 118k ...vs... 230k
Languages ...... 12 (both same)
Voice annotation on 1DMII
Custom Funct... 17 ...vs... 21 plus 27 personal functions
Battery shots .. 650 ...vs... 1200
Weight (body) .. 790g ...vs... 1290g


The above is just from the specs, there are other diffs like the speed of AF and the shutter response time. And of course there are personal impressions. I would particularly like to here folks impressions from handling the cameras.
A couple of corrections, the 10D has video out and has DoF Preview button. I done use the camera USB out since using a reader is faster. Not sure about the Mark II but I assume you could find a faster reader. When doing 200-300 pics at a time regularly the few seconds adds up. I haven't used the video out since I put the pics to my computer to view/edit.

If you do go with the 10D, get the battery grip and an extra battery. I haven't run out on the first but always nice to have two, which the grip takes. Also great for veritcal shots (shutter release and dial)

No doubt there are some nice advantages to the Mark II, but will you need/use them?

After getting the grip for my last camera and won't have one that is either built in or has a accessory grip. It is a feature you come to love and expect. The weight doesn't really bother me.

I haven't had the pleasure to try out a Mark II yet. If you have any specific questions about the 10D ask. I am not trying to sell it just help with some info.

[cmr164]

A couple of corrections, the 10D has video out and has DoF Preview button. I done use the camera USB out since using a reader is faster. Not sure about the Mark II but I assume you could find a faster reader. When doing 200-300 pics at a time regularly the few seconds adds up. I haven't used the video out since I put the pics to my computer to view/edit.
Thanks for the info, the DoF preview is important to me.
You are right about USB, I also would probably not use USB.


If you do go with the 10D, get the battery grip and an extra battery. I haven't run out on the first but always nice to have two, which the grip takes. Also great for veritcal shots (shutter release and dial)
Good point. I am accustomed to a heavy camera with a grip and a 2nd shutter. I would miss those features. One of the nice workflow features of the DCS Pro SLR/c is that it detects vertical/horizontal framing and rotates the image in-camera so you do not have to do the rotations on the computer,


No doubt there are some nice advantages to the Mark II, but will you need/use them?
I probably will use them.


After getting the grip for my last camera and won't have one that is either built in or has a accessory grip. It is a feature you come to love and expect. The weight doesn't really bother me.
I carry a heavy camera and I do not mind the weight.


I haven't had the pleasure to try out a Mark II yet. If you have any specific questions about the 10D ask. I am not trying to sell it just help with some info.
I very much appreciate that.

[pathfinder]

So it is time to think about replacing my dSLR. Since I still have 3 'L' lenses and since I will continue to use my DCS520 as a 2nd body, a Canon mount is definite.

The choices:

6MP Digital Rebel (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=297501&is=REG)

6MP Canon 10D (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=277768&is=REG)

8MP EOS-1D Mark II (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=316692&is=REG)

14MP DCS Pro SLR/c (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=326234&is=REG)

You will note that I am capping at $5k so the $8k 11MP EOS-1Ds (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=266188&is=REG) is not in the running.

Money does matter!! So I am looking for feedback from owners as well as opinions about the value of various features. Is a 10D with a 300mm f2.8L IS a better buy than a EOS-1D Mark II?

Lenses that I have: 17-35 f2.8L , 50 f1.8 , 85 f1.2L , 100-400 f4-5.6 L IS

Lenses I would like: 24-70 f2.8L , 70-200 f2.8L IS , 300 f2.8L IS (note)

tough decisions and choices....

#note: I would probably sell the 100-400 if I got the 70-200 or the 300Charles - I own a 10D and my wife uses a 300D. I had the opportunity this weekend to look through the viewfinder of a 1Ds - The 1ds viewfinder gives a significantly larger and brighter image than the 10D. And the 10D has focus difficulties in dim light that the 1d series will not.
Don't get me wrong - I have loved my 10D, But after seeing the quality available with the 1series Canon DSLRs - I will be ordering a 1DMkii shortly. The improvement in the viewfinder and focusing speed and accuracy are the main reasons altho I am sure the pixels will be cleaner also. Just my two cents.

Also I would not sell the 100-400 unless you neeed the funds - it is too usefull a lens for me - from wide tele to long tele The 70-200 is not nearly as long as the 100-400 and neither is the 300 either. With a 100-400, I would skip the 300 and go for the 400 prime myself.

And an image from Arizona for Andy

http://pathfinder.smugmug.com/photos/4358285-L.jpg

I think the most useful of your desired lenses will be the 24-70f2.8 L That is just such a useful and fast enough lens to be on your camera most of the day. My 70-200L does not get anywhere near the use of my 28-75. If you are going to shoot a lot of athletics this might be reversed of course.

The 300 prime and longer are very specialized tools that also require specialized tripods and Wimberly SideKicks or head to most effectively use them. They are not walk around lenses at all.

[csnudelman]

The differences in the Rebel vs the 10D are the body and its style of gripping. If you plan on taking it out more ruggedly then I would go with the 10d but if you just plan on shooting under care and ease then the rebel is fine. The differences in the two are body and $500 bucks. As for price, everything always drops in this game. I bought an RCA 1.5mp in 98 for 600 and we all know how fast that dropped. (Darn me!) I prefer the feel of the 10d and so held out for that. But that is as they would compare owning a gun, it has to fit you.


It may be important to some that the 10D viewfinder is larger and brighter than the Rebel. It is to me.

[pathfinder]

It may be important to some that the 10D viewfinder is larger and brighter than the Rebel. It is to me.
And the viewfinder in the 10D can't hold a candle to the viewfinder in a 1 Series Canon DSLR. Nor will the 10D focus in dim light like them either. Lots of choices - that's a good thing, right!?

[Porter]

Yikes! Don't know if you've made up your mind yet about which dSLR was right for you but I finally decided on markII and the transition from minolta 35mm cost me $6000! Memory, glass, etc.

So after it arrives in about three weeks, I'll let you know my opinion. Of course, that might not be fast enough for you. I hated my first digital compact but have high hopes for the markII.

[wxwax]

Big jump, Porter. In talking to Patch, and playing with the 1D mkI, I'd say that speed of performance is the same as an SLR. But exposure latitude is minimal - highlights are easily blown out. Patch likens it to shooting slide film.

[patch29]

Big jump, Porter. In talking to Patch, and playing with the 1D mkI, I'd say that speed of performance is the same as an SLR. But exposure latitude is minimal - highlights are easily blown out. Patch likens it to shooting slide film.

You can increase your latitude some if you shoot RAW, but it is easier to get it right the first time.

[jimf]

The differences in the Rebel vs the 10D are the body and its style of gripping.

That's one difference, it's not even close to the only difference. And in my mind it's the least important.

A more important difference is the relative lack of metering modes and the total lack of metering mode selectability in the Rebel. The latter in particular bugs me; the Rebel actually does worse in this respect than my old Olympus C2500L. I didn't think I'd care as much as I do. But it's not necessarily a critical limitation depending on how you shoot. In a studio setting, for instance, I use a hand-held meter and full manual mode. In that case the Rebel and the 10D are essentially indistinguishable (with a couple of caveats I'll get to in a minute).

There are a number of other configuration settings that are available on the 10D and not on the Rebel. Some you can get back with a hacked firmware, some you can't, none seemed that critical to me (eg mirror lock-up). I'm kind of holding out for the possibility of an official improved firmware from Canon to allow them to compete more effectively with the D70, but I suppose it's more likely they'll release a "Rebel mkII" instead.

Having played with 10D and Rebel a bit at this point one other difference that struck me is that the 10D has noticably faster image review. It's not even close. It appears that this may be related to a higher performance CF interface. Running really fast CF cards on a Rebel is pointless, it tops out at or before 22x based on the fact that I saw no performance improvement when moving between those chips. This can be a bother; in rapid shoot situations I'll pop off 4 frames then the camera is locked for 6 seconds (in RAW mode, much less with JPG). In studio situations I find this terribly annoying, since once I get a shot set up I like to burst shoot. It's less bothersome in random shot situations.

Another irritation if you're shooting in a studio situation is the lack of a PC connector on the Rebel. I use a hotshoe adapter but it's not as good, sometimes it slips.

I've had my Rebel since late January and have shot about 3k frames in that time and lugged it around a lot. The case has loosened up a bit in that time; not enough to be a problem, but it creaks on the non-handle side. That's plastic for you. If I'd known just how much I was going to use the Rebel I would have gone for a 10D just to get the metal case.