And so it begins... I have a commission!

[divamum]

So somebody who was at the Don Giovanni shoot-in-the-dark performance (another singer) liked my shots, asked to see the headshots I've been doing and.... wants to book me for both her AND her husband. Holy moly this is all snowballing waayyyyy beyond anything I expected! I'm not complaining, mind you (thrilled, in fact) just a little... overwhelmed by such a positive response - I still feel like I'm in photographic kindergarten and people are offering to pay me?!! :huh

I'm sure I will have a TON of questions for you all but for now I just wanted to share. I'm really excited (of course) but.... completely stunned. Ummm... wow?:jawdrop

:ivar:barb:hide

PS. No. Weddings. Ever. :rofl

[sweet caroline]

Wonderful news!

Make sure you check out your state's sales tax law and find out if you need a tax id number. I was able to apply for mine online and I even pay the tax online.

Caroline

[Hackbone]

Make very sure of what is expected of you and what you are expected to do. Are you working for hire......meaning you work for one salary and they get everything!!!! Or do you own the rights and they purchase what they want......big difference. Especially if you are not clear.

[divamum]

Wonderful news!

Make sure you check out your state's sales tax law and find out if you need a tax id number. I was able to apply for mine online and I even pay the tax online.

Caroline

Lordy, I hadn't even thought of that. If I declare it as "hobby income" (since it will be WELL below the $600 threshold), do I still need to register for a tax number? :scratch The bulk of my income as a singer is 1099 Schedule C and I don't have one for that (it's simply my SS#)

Thankfully, I have an accountant.... so I guess I'd better check with him!

[LivingLarge]

Congrats :clap :clap :clap

Shout High and Loud :barb :barb :barb

[ShepsMom]

What a great and exciting news!! I can feel how you feel!! Good luck, and of course, show us what you've got after all is done!! :barb

[divamum]

Make very sure of what is expected of you and what you are expected to do. Are you working for hire......meaning you work for one salary and they get everything!!!! Or do you own the rights and they purchase what they want......big difference. Especially if you are not clear.

Yeah have been thinking about that. Rights will rest with me and them (standard protocol for performer shots, IME on the subject side of the camera); I have no problem with that - the usual agreement is flat fee for the shoot + X number of ready-to-reproduce shots/prints with full reproduction rights (since performers need zillions of copies a year, and have them repro'd in bulk cheaply, often lithos). I do have to figure out how to price it though - I need to make this worth my while and, in the event that this might actually become true fee-paying work in time, not undervalue/undercut myself or anybody else. HOWEVER... I also know that I'm still a novice (however enthusiastic a one) and will be gaining experience on their time, thus have to take that into account. As a first paid gig, I think I need to treat it as more of an honorarium rather than a full fee.

Lots to think about. :huh:scratch

[sweet caroline]

What I mean is that some states require you to charge sales tax on photography. So I use my SS# on my income taxes, but I have a sales tax permit with a tax id number for paying the sales tax.

Caroline

[divamum]

What I mean is that some states require you to charge sales tax on photography. So I use my SS# on my income taxes, but I have a sales tax permit with a tax id number for paying the sales tax.

Caroline

Ah, gotcha... shows how ignorant I am about this side of things. :huh Maybe I should jsut get them to buy me an Adorama gift certificate (since any fee will be going straight back into gear, I suspect...!) :D

And THANKS!!!

[Agnieszka]

CONGRATS!!! So happy for you! :clap :barb

[Nikolai]

Congrats! WTG! :thumb

[Zarathustra]

Congratulations! :clap It feels a wee bit surreal your first time, huh? I've not yet had my first paid portrait shoot but a few architectural ones here and there. It is a rush. You have no need to feel like a photography n00b, though. I've seen a lot of your work on here and you have got some pretty serious chops! Knock 'em dead!

[Art Scott]

WaY TO gO!!!!!!!!!



Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
get paid in cash and big brother will never know:D:D...............
unless the other parties want a receipt for tax deductions:D

[VayCayMom]

woooooooo hooooooooo congrats, just remember THEY have NO IDEA you feel like a kindergartner, they like what you do and they could never do it themselves !

Congrats.:ivar

[D'Buggs]

I know that I haven't been around much (very new to this forum) but feel that I need to say something here;


In a business relationship, if someone likes your wares,,, you *SELL IT* for all its worth!

IMO and experience, if you under sell your goods, you set precedence and this will show in the expectations of future customers. The goal in business is to make $$$, not create a plethora of people wanting upside-down 'deals'.

If people are coming to YOU, you have something they want... Now it is possible that they're Professional Bargain Hunters and do this all the time, but they know what it should cost - I'd make them a reasonable offer and then see where their intentions lie. If they're wanting something for next to nothing, I'd kick them to the curb like last weeks trash.

If they truly like your work and an understanding of mutual benefit can be reached, good! But grossly under selling never does any good, to yourself or others in the same field/industry.... The ones that try, never last very long; sooner or later they realize that they have to raise their prices and when they do, they find that they no longer have a customer base because they've programmed them into thinking that the old rates were fair. That, or they simply look for another shmuck to lure in, leaving you to die.

Business is bitter sweet. It takes as much talent to prosper as it does to be 'good' at what ya do. It in itself, is an art.

FWIW, I've seen some of your stuff that's been posted and believe it to be pretty nice (quite admirable from where I sit). -----> IMHO you should expect a fair return in this endeavour. Good luck with it. :D

[Scott_Quier]

Congratulations!! Way to go!! :clap :barb :ivar

As for feeling like you are in photography kindergarten - just remember, most of them haven't even started school yet. Oh, and BTW, I think you've at least started High School :D - your work sure demonstrates your ability.

As for the whole tax thing - NOW is the time to find and retain a good small business accountant/CPA. Get the straight poop, tailored to your circumstances. Any advice you might get here, even from ChatKat (and she's an accountant!), will be too generic for real usefulness. The money you spend on good, professional advice is nothing compared to the savings you will realize when you follow that good advice!

Now than ... How to charge? Here's my take on it...

It is my firm belief that the old-school way of doing it, cheap session fee, sky-high print prices is not the way to go any more
Charge for the session - get all you need to be happy for the time you invest, working under the assumption that you will get nothing from the sale of prints and/or digital images. It could happen.
Charge for prints as usual.
Charge for each individual digital image. Don't provide the entire shoot on a disk. Give them only those they actually purchase. Charge enough to cover the cost of prints that you might have gotten had you not made the digital available.


P.S. - you have PM

[NeilL]

Nice, dm. :clap:thumb:clap

So, who will be your Leporello now the count of your 'conquests' has begun?:D:D:D

Neil

[Ed911]

Congrats...you can do it.

[jeffreaux2]

Hey....kindergarten is for kids!


...but really...


...aside from the "business" issues, remember to...

-Keep it simple-

Theres nothing wrong with a well focused, technically proficient portrait. Get a few of these on the momory card before you reach for your inner artist and you will have $ in the bank whether or not fancy ideas work...or not.

-Be organized-
Arrive with batteries charged, CF cards formatted, methodically cheching your pack list the night before.

-Be methodical-
Pose them.....back up....check hands, feet, hair, jewelry.....get it all in order.....taking time with each shot will help you not to "miss" something that cannot be fixed in post.

-Have fun-
Do I need to explain this?:dunno

You will do fine. Keep it simple.

[Hackbone]

Before you volunteer price you might begin the conversation in an innoncent way and ask "What is your budget for this project". Then you can start silently to think which way to go without tipping your hand first.

[divamum]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! You have no idea how much I love this place. Kidding aside, this kind of thing wouldn't be happening if I HADN'T found this place, which initially fed my interest enough to start giving it all a try... and then taught me how to do it properly. You guys are the best. :lust

Forgive my not responding to each of your kind comments individually, but take it as read that I truly appreciate every word of advice, encouragement and support.

Let me respond specifically to a few points, however:


I have an accountant, so no worries checking out the official position on all of this. Thank you SO much for the tipoff on sales tax etc - I had no idea that a service activity like photography is taxable.

A few thoughts on pricing, and some musings to explain my current thinking - responses and comments definitely welcomed!! (and thank you, Scott, for your PM). Forgive me for thinking out loud (and at such length!), but it really helps me get my own thoughts in order. And I KNOW you all will hammer some sense into me if I'm completely crazy in my thinking!! :D


[LIST]
These are not complete strangers, but singer colleagues who are aware that I'm starting out in this. This of course does not preclude establishing a quality professional relationship/situation, but it's something to be factored in.

Headshot sessions in the two big headshot markets (ie NY and LA) are typically priced as a total package which includes the shoot itself (nowt hat most have gone digital, unlimited numbers, usually with a minimum of 200) and a set number - usually 2, 3 or 5 - of finished, edited, retouched, ready-to-reproduce prints (either as hard copies, or ready-to-print digital files or, these days, both). There's usually a per-photo charge for any final images the client would like above and beyond the number specified in the package. Multiple prints are the responsibility of the client - the sheer numbers most performers need (~500-1000 a year) makes it uttterly impractical for the photographer to take that on, thus the "ready to reproduce", single prints.

D'buggs, no worries, welcome to Dgrin :wave and thanks for your thoughts! I totally get the concept of underpricing - it's something we face in Singerland, too (although these days the "take it or leave it" fee is becoming the norm, but that's another story for another thread.... :rolleyes) I'm only too aware of what happens when we undervalue ourselves. It's slightly perplexing consumer psychology that we automatically perceive "less costly" as "less valuable", but you are 100% right that's how it works. (Does anybody remember that episode of Madmen where they decide that the way to save a failing department store is to send it MORE upmarket rather than providing greater value for money? Fictionalised, of course, but a neat example of the very real marketing principle laid out in all its bald glory)

That said, I absolutely cannot at this point justify the mid-range NY headshot-session pricing of ~$500+ per person per session (and locally, $~300+) - it would be absurd hubris on my part, particularly as I may not have studio access at the college through the summer and will have to revert to my more ghetto setup at home (although if that's the case I WILL be buying a second speedlight and some seamless, and moving it all into the much larger living room!)

I've been asking myself for a while now how I would approach a paid shoot so I already had some ideas in mind. Taking all of the above into consideration, I was thinking of asking for a much less-than-$500 session fee including 1 finished print chosen from an online proof gallery of unretouched, reduced-rez shots, and then charging appropriately for any additional shots which they'd like to have processed and finished. If I take this further - which I certainly hope I will - I figure that format can be used as a marketing approach too: rather than paying a lot of money up front for shots you may not want (sooooo many singers have been burned by sessions which returned shots they HATED, but were already paid for so they wound up stuck with images they loathed, or having to pay for a reshoot elsewhere), it means that I can use the structure to emphasise value for money.... but still get paid what I need to make it worthwhile AND without undercutting anybody else.


What say ye, wise forum?

Again, my sincere thanks to you all. It's so neat to talk about this with folks who understand!!

[Scott_Quier]

My thoughts on your thoughts (gee, this is fun!)

Headshot session pricing - hadn't even considered it that way. I'm going to have to rethink the way I do it. There's a (very) small theater culture in this area and I get pinged once in a great while to do headshots. Hmmmm......
hubris - Seriously, I don't think so. Regardless of where you shoot or what equipment you use, it's the product that comes out the other end that really counts. So what if you might be working with a pair of 50W tunsten light bulbs in a a couple of Home Depot shoplight fixtures. Are you getting the color, texture, light (and shadows) that you want and that your client expects? If so, done deal. Here's my point, Charge for the product, not for how you get there!
As for your approach to maximizing the chances that your clients will love the photos they get .... how about supplying feedback during the photo session. If you are shooting in a studio, it's not much effort to tether the camera to a laptop positioned where the client can see the images and have the laptop display the photos as they are written to the card. It also provides an immediate backup of the photos - you have one copy on the card and one on the laptop.

And there you have it - my thoughts on your thoughts - FWIW :D

[jeffreaux2]

Scott made some fine points on your remarks.....I agree.


I know its hard to charge up when you are ...well....less than 100% confident in your abilities. I am STILL working my pricing up to where it ought to be. I can promise you though...that asking less, really, than what is fair can really be a let down for you. The absolute worst feeling is to produce a great shoot, impress the client, and have yourself some sour grapes because you feel as though you were taken advantage of. Just dont cut yourself short.

The headshot pricing bundled like that is very ....well...really exactly .....pretty much(:rofl ) how I price out senior sessions. I have a single senior package at a price that is non-negotiable....take it or leave it and you can add on anything you like....for a price! I put a LOT of work, effort, and forethought into the shoots. No reason not to charge accordingly.

[D'Buggs]

[quote]hubris - Seriously, I don't think so. Regardless of where you shoot or what equipment you use, it's the product that comes out the other end that really counts. So what if you might be working with a pair of 50W tunsten light bulbs in a a couple of Home Depot shoplight fixtures. Are you getting the color, texture, light (and shadows) that you want and that your client expects? If so, done deal. Here's my point, Charge for the product, not for how you get there!

I couldn't agree more w/ the above statement.... When you get your car tuned-up, we don't care how its done, we just want the final result (good running vehicle) @ a fair price. This is no different.



As for your approach to maximizing the chances that your clients will love the photos they get .... how about supplying feedback during the photo session. If you are shooting in a studio, it's not much effort to tether the camera to a laptop positioned where the client can see the images and have the laptop display the photos as they are written to the card. It also provides an immediate backup of the photos - you have one copy on the card and one on the laptop.
And there you have it - my thoughts on your thoughts - FWIW :D


I not so sold on this conception. I think it *could* lead to confusion with clients getting overly fixated on it (time burner).... Maybe a preview of some different samples early on in the gig to see where their tastes go, instead of the constant scrutiny of each and every shot - I really don't know as I haven't "been there, done that".

I just see a lot of breaks in the session, and time = $$$...


divamum, you come across as a pretty smart cookie (:wink) and thanks for the welcome mat. I sincerely hope this works out for you. :ivar

[Scott_Quier]

I not so sold on this conception. I think it *could* lead to confusion with clients getting overly fixated on it (time burner).... Maybe a preview of some different samples early on in the gig to see where their tastes go, instead of the constant scrutiny of each and every shot - I really don't know as I haven't "been there, done that".

I just see a lot of breaks in the session, and time = $$$...


divamum, you come across as a pretty smart cookie (:wink) and thanks for the welcome mat. I sincerely hope this works out for you. :ivar
Yes, it could if not managed properly ... or maybe I've just been lucky. Anyway, the times I done this it worked very well. I keep the model's attention and didn't let it drift until I was ready.

[divamum]

Thanks again, everybody. I came up with a pricing structure that I think will work for now and that I think can serve as a reasonable business model to grow if that should happen, so we'll see what they say! (For the record, I gave them a choice between a higher flat-fee package which includes 4 ready-to-reproduce shots, or a lower fee that includes 1 RTR shot and charges for any extra shots beyond that). If they want a pro makeup artist, they can book and pay for that separately (happily, I know a couple they can contact :D).

The shoot will include proofs in an online gallery (low res, of course, to minimise purloining, although I don't thikn that will be an issue in this case), and the final prints/shots will come with a letter releasing reproduction rights, although copyright will rest with me. They can have a ready-to-print digital copy and/or a print as needed.

Now, about tethering - is there a thread about this anywhere? I love the idea of having them already burned to HDD! Is it just a case of using a long USB cable, or...?

PS Jeff, these days I'm pretty confident I can GET the shot.... but my methods can be be... er... shall we say.... "unorthodox"?! :rofl(Hmmm... maybe I should use that as a quirky marketing ploy at some point :D). That said, I emptied out the piggy bank and just bought myself a refurbed 430ex as a 2nd flash - regardless of how this all plays out, at least I will finally have TWO strobes of my own, one of which will (at last!) be manual. So it's all good :D

[lisap]

Wow! I 'disappear' for a bit because of quarter end at my 'day job' and then I'm sick in bed for over a week and it takes me almost as long to catch up on what's been going on with you!! :D

I didn't comment on the other posts because I'm sooooo far behind, but this one's not too old! haha It's inspiring to see when things work out for people after working so hard. I'm so happy for you! :clap

[Mitchell]

Congrats!! That's how things begin.

You have a great product, an in with the clientele, and an inside understanding of what is needed. Who wouldn't hire you?:clap

[divamum]

Thanks Lisa and Mitchell - I appreciate the support so much!

[D'Buggs]

Curious Minds NEED to know....... hows this panning out?


(fingers crossed)

[Flyinggina]

I can't believe I missed this thread. I was out of town all of April, but I did check in to dGrin regularly.

Congratulations, Diva!! :clap:clap:clapHow exciting.

And yes, do you have an update? :ear

Virginia

[divamum]

Curious Minds NEED to know....... hows this panning out?


(fingers crossed)

I can't believe I missed this thread. I was out of town all of April, but I did check in to dGrin regularly.

Congratulations, Diva!! :clap:clap:clapHow exciting.

And yes, do you have an update? :ear

Virginia

Ha! How funny y'all would resurrect this exactly now - the (first) shoot is actually on Saturday.

Of course, I was out of town being a singer all last week (Verdi's Otello - blissssss!) and came home with a really bad cold so I'm feeling rather off my game this week, but hopefully by the weekend I'lll be chirpier. :sick It should be fun, and we've already agreed that we'll run into two or more sessions as necessary (especially if the weather acts up). Looking forward to it, and you can be SURE I'll be posting stuff once we get rolling.... :D

[D'Buggs]

(fingers crossed)



Ha! How funny y'all would resurrect this exactly now - the (first) shoot is actually on Saturday.


WOOHOOOOOO!!! :clap :ivar :barb

Knockem' D E A D!

[Scott_Quier]

Just remember the basics and you'll knock 'em dead!:bow