Product Photography -- what should I charge?

[kdog]

I've got a chance to do some photography for some local artisan/builders who do custom interior work. The work is difficult because it involves getting the lighting perfect for a whole wall, floor to ceiling. The shots will be used as promotional materials targeted at their customers which are generally high-end architects. So the distribution is high-end, but very limited.

The clients have extremely high standards, and have booted out every other photographer that's attempted it so far. However, being the optimist that I am, I believe I can solve the technical challenges.

In order to do this, I'm looking at building a custom lighting system that will cost me about a grand. I'm willing to make that investment, because I believe I can pull this gig off. My thoughts are to build the lighting system on my own dime and refine the shots until I get results that they want to buy.

Once I'm able to get the shots, the question is how much should I charge for them? I think they have around six scenes that they want to capture initially, and more to come in the future. The owners are casual acquaintances, and I'm not looking at making a killing here. It would be nice to be able to at least pay off the lighting system. So that would be somewhere in the vicinity of $200 per scene. Is that too low or too high?

All comments are welcome.

Thanks!
-joel

[Blaker]

I've got a chance to do some photography for some local artisan/builders who do custom interior work. The work is difficult because it involves getting the lighting perfect for a whole wall, floor to ceiling. The shots will be used as promotional materials targeted at their customers which are generally high-end architects. So the distribution is high-end, but very limited.

The clients have extremely high standards, and have booted out every other photographer that's attempted it so far. However, being the optimist that I am, I believe I can solve the technical challenges.

In order to do this, I'm looking at building a custom lighting system that will cost me about a grand. I'm willing to make that investment, because I believe I can pull this gig off. My thoughts are to build the lighting system on my own dime and refine the shots until I get results that they want to buy.

Once I'm able to get the shots, the question is how much should I charge for them? I think they have around six scenes that they want to capture initially, and more to come in the future. The owners are casual acquaintances, and I'm not looking at making a killing here. It would be nice to be able to at least pay off the lighting system. So that would be somewhere in the vicinity of $200 per scene. Is that too low or too high?

All comments are welcome.

Thanks!
-joel


Sounds way too low to me.
If $200 a scene pays off the lighting, then that means you are basically working for free. What about the time to set up the scene? The time to shoot it? The time involved in post-processing?
What kind of a budget do they have for this? What kind of money were they talking with the previous photogs?
What kind of income will these promotional photos bring in to them?
Don't undervalue yourself.

[kdog]

Blaker, thanks for taking the time to comment.
Sounds way too low to me.
If $200 a scene pays off the lighting, then that means you are basically working for free. What about the time to set up the scene? The time to shoot it? The time involved in post-processing? Those are legitimate points. Although, nobody says all the capital equipment that I have to buy for the job needs to be paid off by the first few shoots. I'm hoping to build a relationship with these guys and get tons of follow-up work.
What kind of a budget do they have for this? What kind of money were they talking with the previous photogs? What kind of income will these promotional photos bring in to them? All unknowns. However, these guys are positioning themselves in a very specialized and potentially lucrative niche. They're not small time rollers. They've built a small factory and have patents on some processes used to build specialized surface materials out of precious metals and gemstones that sell for hundreds of dollars a square foot. They have customers in Hong Kong and Dubai already. Having good photographic collateral will be key for them. However, they're just now getting off the ground. Don't undervalue yourself. Photography is currently my hobby, although some day I hope to change that and start making money at it. My plan is to keep iterating on the scenes they want until I achieve the quality we'd both like to see. Then when I have those images in hand, I can set a price. But I have to be realistic. Ok, $200 is too low. But $1,000 a scene is probably too high. I dunno, what would a pro get to do this? I guess I could keep track of my time, and use an hourly rate.

Thanks again and regards,
-joel

[catspaw]

Photography is currently my hobby, although some day I hope to change that and start making money at it.

It might be your 'hobby' but if you are charging money, it IS a business and you need to treat it as such. It can be a hobby-business, but the value you put on your work is exactly what it is. Show respect to your OWN work by charging a fair price. By devaluing the price, you belittle your own effort and skills.

$0.02

[kdog]

It might be your 'hobby' but if you are charging money, it IS a business and you need to treat it as such. It can be a hobby-business, but the value you put on your work is exactly what it is. Show respect to your OWN work by charging a fair price. By devaluing the price, you belittle your own effort and skills.

$0.02
Thanks for the condescending, but content-free lecture. :bluduh

[catspaw]

Thanks for the condescending, but content-free lecture. :bluduh

Apologies. It was ment as a thought making consideration of how you value your own photography. You are obviously talented, but charging so little shows you don't value it yourself. If that's no true, then charge accordingly.

If this is still all content-free to you, then there's nothing I can do to change your pov. :dunno

[kdog]

You are obviously talented, but charging so little shows you don't value it yourself.
By what criteria are you judging it's too little? Obviously you have such a criteria, because you seem to be applying it here. If you (or anyone else) can explain what that criteria is, then that would be helpful. But having people sitting in the bleachers saying "eh, too little" and giving me lectures about devaluing myself isn't helping. I need to set a price and I was hoping to get some guidelines from folks who've actually done commercial product photography. THAT would be useful content to me, rather than platitudes about my self-worth.

I'm not trying to pick on you, Leah and appreciate your interest in the matter.

-joel

[catspaw]

Pricing is definitely an art into itself. I'm not sure who around here does or has done Product photography, but I *do* hope they chime in if they have.

I based the $200 off of the fact that I've seen that as the 1 hour posing rate for horse portraits. Which is *no*where nearly as technical or useful as what you are aiming for here. If you get it 'right', you've got a very very specificed niche market that you can dominate.

Now if you want to get technical about it, traditional pricing schemes have you calculate your overhead + skill + artistic input (or technical/creative problem solving if you will) + time and other factors. I just see a LOT of very unique aspects to what you are doing and those alone should drive the price up.

[Blaker]

By what criteria are you judging it's too little? Obviously you have such a criteria, because you seem to be applying it here. If you (or anyone else) can explain what that criteria is, then that would be helpful. But having people sitting in the bleachers saying "eh, too little" and giving me lectures about devaluing myself isn't helping. I need to set a price and I was hoping to get some guidelines from folks who've actually done commercial product photography. THAT would be useful content to me, rather than platitudes about my self-worth.

I'm not trying to pick on you, Leah and appreciate your interest in the matter.

-joel


Cat actually gave you very good advice. If you give away your product for pennies, they will think that's what the product is worth, and then when you out of the blue want to charge $$$$$$$, they will find someone else who will give away the product for pennies.
So don't undervalue yourself and don't undercut other photogs by giving it away for essentially nothing.

You have to know your cost of doing business, you have to put a value on your time, and you have to put a value on your product. How valuable are these photos to your client? How much money are YOUR photos going to make for THEM?
If you have something that makes your photos unique, ( for example , because of your unique lighting system) then that makes your photos more valuable to them than any other photographers', and they should be willing to pay for that kind of expertise.

THere is a lot more involved in selling photographs than showing up and pressing the button.

Do your homework, find out the answers to the questions we've asked, do a google search of other architectural photogs websites and see what they are charging.
Also, do you have liability insurance? What if your lighting rig falls and damages their product, or injures one of their employees?

Here is a little something to get you started, but this is your business and you have to put in the groundwork so that you know what you are doing.

http://www.asmp.org/commerce/business.php

[Cygnus Studios]

Product photography is quite different than most other types of photography, simply because the clients use your image to sell products on a limitless basis. Therefor you need to keep that in mind.

As far as fees go, I can only base this on the limited information that you have provided.

I would figure my time at $100 per hour.
I would figure the finished shots at $200 to $250 each.
I would equally split the materials over the jobs. If all six shots are seperate, you will break even. Now you can easily lose on this if you get one shot.
However, if this equipment can be used for future assignments after the initial costs are recouped it is just a money maker.

As an example if you provide 6 finished photos at $1200, four hours of shooting / editing $400, and charged $200 for materials (based on four more shoots) your total would be $1800.00

Products shots will often mean purchasing equipment based on hope of getting the work, just keep in mind to add a percentage to each shoot until is paid for.
I would bid this job prior to spending a dime. This way the client has a rough idea of their costs. It doesn't have to be finalized until the contract being signed, but should be a very close estimate.

Do not have a fear of charging too much. They already have tried other photographers. Even if you are 3 or 4 times more expensive than the others doesn't matter. They did not get what they wanted.
Your photos will lead to sales. This is how they make their money. Whether they make a dollar or a million dollars is irrelevent to your fees.
Keep in mind that you are trying to accomplish what the others could not. If they ask for another quote, you can have them quote their budget.
Having others fail in front of me would make me as happy as I could be. It only means that my services become much more valuable when I pull it off.

[kdog]

Pricing is definitely an art into itself. I'm not sure who around here does or has done Product photography, but I *do* hope they chime in if they have.

I based the $200 off of the fact that I've seen that as the 1 hour posing rate for horse portraits. Which is *no*where nearly as technical or useful as what you are aiming for here. If you get it 'right', you've got a very very specificed niche market that you can dominate.

Now if you want to get technical about it, traditional pricing schemes have you calculate your overhead + skill + artistic input (or technical/creative problem solving if you will) + time and other factors. I just see a LOT of very unique aspects to what you are doing and those alone should drive the price up.

Thanks, Leah. The $200/hr figure is a good datapoint to know. I appreciate and agree with the comments about being sure to factor in time, equipment, unique skills, etc.

Thanks again for your input.
-joel

[kdog]

Product photography is quite different than most other types of photography, simply because the clients use your image to sell products on a limitless basis. Therefor you need to keep that in mind.

As far as fees go, I can only base this on the limited information that you have provided.

I would figure my time at $100 per hour.
I would figure the finished shots at $200 to $250 each.
I would equally split the materials over the jobs. If all six shots are seperate, you will break even. Now you can easily lose on this if you get one shot.
However, if this equipment can be used for future assignments after the initial costs are recouped it is just a money maker.

As an example if you provide 6 finished photos at $1200, four hours of shooting / editing $400, and charged $200 for materials (based on four more shoots) your total would be $1800.00

Products shots will often mean purchasing equipment based on hope of getting the work, just keep in mind to add a percentage to each shoot until is paid for.
I would bid this job prior to spending a dime. This way the client has a rough idea of their costs. It doesn't have to be finalized until the contract being signed, but should be a very close estimate.

Do not have a fear of charging too much. They already have tried other photographers. Even if you are 3 or 4 times more expensive than the others doesn't matter. They did not get what they wanted.
Your photos will lead to sales. This is how they make their money. Whether they make a dollar or a million dollars is irrelevent to your fees.
Keep in mind that you are trying to accomplish what the others could not. If they ask for another quote, you can have them quote their budget.
Having others fail in front of me would make me as happy as I could be. It only means that my services become much more valuable when I pull it off.
Steve, this post is so incredibly relevant and useful to my situation, I almost don't know what to say. Not only did you give me a formula for pricing this gig, but you even suggested rates and then walked me through the calculations for the job.

Equally useful are your words around not worrying about bidding too high. You're spot-on that since others have failed before me, I'm in a particularly unique situation. I can see that it would be better to start high and negotiate down if they cry poverty then it would be for me to start low then try to increase my prices later.

It's funny you mentioned adding a portion of the lighting costs to the shots until the equipment costs are covered. My wife who negotiates big contracts for a living suggested the same thing. Basically, I can tell the customer that the price of the shots will go down after the equipment costs are covered. This of course is incentive for the customer to give me more work. Oddly enough, they're already coming up with more things to shoot, even though I've delivered nothing yet.

Anyway, thanks every so much for taking the time to so understand my situation so thoroughly, and for the concrete set of recommendations. Whether I can pull the gig off or not is up to me now. But either way, I am indebted to your help with this. :bow

-joel

[Tim Kamppinen]

Not knowing exactly what sort of lighting setup you are trying to assemble, my first thought is whether or not you could rent all or most of the equipment for the first shoot. That way if they decide not to go with you in the future you are stuck with a bunch of expensive gear that you won't need again, but if it turns into a recurring gig you can decide whether to purchase the stuff for yourself.

[Blaker]

It's funny you mentioned adding a portion of the lighting costs to the shots until the equipment costs are covered. My wife who negotiates big contracts for a living suggested the same thing. Basically, I can tell the customer that the price of the shots will go down after the equipment costs are covered. This of course is incentive for the customer to give me more work.

Actually, this isn't something you would share with your client- you are basically telling him that he is paying for your equipment.
Your equipment purchases and maintenance is always part of your cost of doing business, and should always be factored into your final price as part of your overhead. But it's not something you would disclose to your client or itemize on their bill.

Good luck on making this work- maybe you could post some of the photos when you finish your assignment?

[kdog]

Not knowing exactly what sort of lighting setup you are trying to assemble, my first thought is whether or not you could rent all or most of the equipment for the first shoot. That way if they decide not to go with you in the future you are stuck with a bunch of expensive gear that you won't need again, but if it turns into a recurring gig you can decide whether to purchase the stuff for yourself.
Thanks, Tim. It's a fluorescent lighting system, 5,000 Kelvin, electronic ballasts, 32 bulbs total, arranged in 4 8' tall columns (8 bulbs per column). Basically want I wanted was a wall of perfectly even lighting. I'm planning on constructing a big diffuser to go between the lights and the scenes as well. If the gig falls through, I'm going to sell the lights to neighbors for garage lighting, with free installation! :wink

Ideally what I would have wanted would have been multiple 8' tall softboxes. Maybe I could have rented those in Las Vegas, which is 100 miles away, or maybe not. Even if I could, the amount of travel time and expense would have been prohibitive I feel. Every time I needed to do another shot, I'd have to spend two half-days driving to Vegas and back. Ain't happenin'.

The lighting system is done. I just have to make the diffusers now.
http://www.jacara.com/cpg144/albums/tile_gig/IMG_7158.jpg

[kdog]

Actually, this isn't something you would share with your client- you are basically telling him that he is paying for your equipment.
Your equipment purchases and maintenance is always part of your cost of doing business, and should always be factored into your final price as part of your overhead. But it's not something you would disclose to your client or itemize on their bill.

Good luck on making this work- maybe you could post some of the photos when you finish your assignment?

I hear you, but I don't necessarily agree. It's kind of like an initial setup charge. Lots of business are run like this. After you pay off the setup charge, the price drops. Or it's spread out over the entire job if the exact quantity is known ahead of time, which doesn't apply in this case. As you can see from the picture above, this is not something that I'm likely to use elsewhere.

Yeah, I'll post the results.

Thanks,
-joel

[Blaker]

I hear you, but I don't necessarily agree. It's kind of like an initial setup charge. Lots of business are run like this. After you pay off the setup charge, the price drops. Or it's spread out over the entire job if the exact quantity is known ahead of time, which doesn't apply in this case. As you can see from the picture above, this is not something that I'm likely to use elsewhere.

Yeah, I'll post the results.

Thanks,
-joel


So then you would include that in a separate 'shooting fee', or in your hourly rate, and not as part of the finished photos? Because if they don't buy the photos, you're out all of the time and money you put into the lighting you constructed.

[kdog]

So then you would include that in a separate 'shooting fee', or in your hourly rate, and not as part of the finished photos? Because if they don't buy the photos, you're out all of the time and money you put into the lighting you constructed.
Yes, and yes. I'd itemize it in the breakdown as a separate fee I guess.

And you're right, I'm going out on a limb here. But it's quid pro quo, because I'm learning on the job as well. They'll let me experiment and reshoot as much as I want on site while I'm figuring all this out.

Doing catalog quality interior shots will be a useful skill to have. As I improve and get a portfolio under my belt, I'll be in a far greater position next time to whip out a bid and a contract and do things more professionally.

[Blaker]

Yes, and yes. I'd itemize it in the breakdown as a separate fee I guess.

And you're right, I'm going out on a limb here. But it's quid pro quo, because I'm learning on the job as well. They'll let me experiment and reshoot as much as I want on site while I'm figuring all this out.

Doing catalog quality interior shots will be a useful skill to have. As I improve and get a portfolio under my belt, I'll be in a far greater position next time to whip out a bid and a contract and do things more professionally.

Sounds like it will be a great learning experience!
90% of great photos is knowing how to use light.
You're way ahead of the game if you are able to build your own!

[kdog]

Sounds like it will be a great learning experience!
90% of great photos is knowing how to use light.
You're way ahead of the game if you are able to build your own!

Thanks! I'm pretty stoked about it.

[Cygnus Studios]

Actually, this isn't something you would share with your client- you are basically telling him that he is paying for your equipment.
Your equipment purchases and maintenance is always part of your cost of doing business, and should always be factored into your final price as part of your overhead. But it's not something you would disclose to your client or itemize on their bill.

Normal equipment would not be shared with the client as this is expected tools necessary to do the job. On special jobs where the tools are not common to the photographer most clients will understand if explained properly.
If the client is briefed on the scale and the possible drop in rates with future work it also can be a benefit.
Normally this is done with established clients, but the logic is still sound. Of course if the photographer doesn't hold up his end, the client is at no loss. So it can make sense for both parties.

With the client in question, a very detailed explanation of what is desired is going to make or break this deal. Kdog needs to pull this idea out of their head in order to get this on paper.
Some clients have an idea that isn't possible, and it then becomes our job to get them to understand and then get the image that works best for their needs. Now I am not saying that this is the case, but their past decisions indicate a very specific idea, and that is all they are looking for.

I like the lighting concept that you have come up with. Doesn't look too easy to transport though.
I am looking forward to seeing some test shots with this setup.

[kdog]

With the client in question, a very detailed explanation of what is desired is going to make or break this deal. Kdog needs to pull this idea out of their head in order to get this on paper.
Some clients have an idea that isn't possible, and it then becomes our job to get them to understand and then get the image that works best for their needs. Now I am not saying that this is the case, but their past decisions indicate a very specific idea, and that is all they are looking for.

Yes! The client did pull out some glossy brochures from a much larger vendor in a related market. Lighting was perfect of course and looked like it had been shot in a studio. So that's the benchmark that has been given. Even lighting, no glare, and no shadows. It has been pointed out to me that with no shadows, the scene might look flat and possibly fake. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. But my attitude is that if I have to add-in controlled shadows, that will cost extra. :deal

I like the lighting concept that you have come up with. Doesn't look too easy to transport though.
I am looking forward to seeing some test shots with this setup.

Thanks! Getting some independent verification of my idea is comforting.

Thanks again for your input, Steve!
-joel

[kdog]

So here's one of my reject shots done with two strobes and diffusers (in other words, not done with the new lights I built). Basically this is indicative of what the other photographers have done. Specific complaints are glare, uneven lighting, and shadows. I hope to eliminate all those problems with my new lighting design.
http://www.jacara.com/cpg144/albums/tile_gig/IMG_7123.jpg

BTW, that is a solid turquoise basin, sandstone vanity, and mirror made from sandstone, turquoise and some other mineral.

They do pretty cool stuff, eh?

-joel

[Cygnus Studios]

What about shooting everything seperately and putting it together with photoshop?
Guaranteed no shadows. Not sure if that is possible, but more of the large setups similar to this are being shot that way.

Looks like a great job though.

[kdog]

What about shooting everything seperately and putting it together with photoshop?
Guaranteed no shadows. Not sure if that is possible, but more of the large setups similar to this are being shot that way.

Interesting! My photocomposition skills aren't that hot. I could develop them, I suppose. But there are a few other challenges as well. Like most of the other scenes have floor-to-ceiling tile/mosaic walls from their gemstone tiles. I can just see me photographing hundreds of tiles individually and recreating the wall in Photoshop. :rofl

Cheers,
-joel

[Cygnus Studios]

Shoot the walls
Shoot the sink
Shoot the table
Shoot the mirror
Shoot the lights
Shoot the faucet
Shoot the towel rack
Shoot the towels
Shoot that little holder on the sink

Anything that can be shot seperately should be. Shoot on white backgrounds so that you can pull the subject out easily and place on any wall background that they need.
You could easily box in the sink and faucet with posterboard and light them from every angle. The wall would be your only challenge, but with nothing blocking the wall, it should be easier.

[kdog]

Shoot the walls
Shoot the sink
Shoot the table
Shoot the mirror
Shoot the lights
Shoot the faucet
Shoot the towel rack
Shoot the towels
Shoot that little holder on the sink

Anything that can be shot seperately should be. Shoot on white backgrounds so that you can pull the subject out easily and place on any wall background that they need.
You could easily box in the sink and faucet with posterboard and light them from every angle. The wall would be your only challenge, but with nothing blocking the wall, it should be easier.

Um, sure. :huh Doing anything tonight? :rofl

Let's back up. My idea is basically to construct a light-tent around the whole scene to do the best I can. Remember the other scenes I mentioned? Some of them are working kitchens and baths in the owners homes. They probably won't take too kindly to me coming in with a wrecking bar. :wink

Seriously, given my lack of skills in photocomposition like this, combined with the fact most of the scenes can't be dismantled, I'm really going to have to do the best I can with things as they are. Not that I don't like your ideas though. I certainly appreciate hearing how the pros do it, and it sounds like a great skill to have. :nod

Cheers,
-joel

[Blaker]

Or you could just remove the shadows and glare with photoshop...

[kdog]

Or you could just remove the shadows and glare with photoshop...

Yeah, after I get the lighting as good as I can, I'll deal with any other artifacts in Photoshop. I actually did take a run at removing the shadows in the above shot. Didn't come out too bad, but it is a laborious operation. The larger problem is getting the lighting perfectly even. That's much harder to fix in Photoshop. And glare is even worse. I guess I tend to live by the mantra that it's always best to get it as close as possible in the camera first.

[Tim Kamppinen]

One thing that you should seriously consider compositing is the mirror. Won't your wall of light end up being reflected? Even if it's not, you'll have to worry about lighting all the things that ARE being reflected, at the same time as you light the main scene. If you just leave the camera in place on the tripod, shoot the scene with your wall of light, then rework the lighting for just the stuff in the mirror, and take another shot, compositing the two images should be almost trivial, even with limited post-compositing skills. You would only have to create a layer mask over everything but the glass of the mirror.

Or maybe you have a way to light it all at once worked out already? But I'm having trouble seeing how you could do that, maintain the evenness of the light, and not have the lights reflected in the mirror.

[kdog]

One thing that you should seriously consider compositing is the mirror...
Thanks, Tim. Indeed I've been throwing fits trying to figure out what to do about the mirror. Ideally I want to shoot the scene directly from the front, but then I get a nice reflection of myself (I have some of those already.) A friend suggested I "cheat" or angle the mirror slightly away from the wall on one side so that it's reflecting on an angle rather than head on. That combined with your idea of lighting the main scene and target reflection separately and combining them in layers might work well. Another idea is to take the shot through a hole in a black curtain. Or maybe shoot through a hole cut in sheet of foam core. Then I can easily clone out the hole and lens. However, then the mirror will be all black or white, which might not look right. Heck at that point, I may as well just fill the mirror with some color in photoshop. It's something I'm going to have to play with to get right.

Good thought though. Thanks for bringing it up.

-joel

[138photog]

I would love to know how this project goes. Please keep me posted, thanks.

[kdog]

I would love to know how this project goes. Please keep me posted, thanks.
Thanks for your interest. Things may have gotten a little strange. The partner who runs the gem tile business had me do an interim shoot for them. I shot 28 12" square tile sheets in a light tent for them to put on a couple of websites. I did great job on these. I spent 4 hours on the shoot, two of which was doing a meticulous setup and checking and rechecking exposures. Then we ran all the tiles through.

After shooting, but before processing, I reviewed the shots with the client who liked them. At that point I said we probably should discuss a fee. I asked what the last photographer had charged them who did this sort of work, and he said that they were never billed for it. I asked him if he was expecting me to work for free as well and he said no. I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total) delivered in three sizes on CDs (two copies, since they are sending one out to an affiliate). The client said he thought that was reasonable. Now I can almost hear the boos and hisses that I did this job so cheap, and it's true. Really, I just wanted to do a good job so that I'd get the much larger follow-on work.

Having agreed on the price, I spent another couple of hours processing, cropping, and sizing the shots into three different sizes (thumbs, websize, and full size). I delivered the CD's and presented them with an invoice. I also asked about scheduling the larger scene work with the lights I built and they said they'd get back to me on that. It's been over a week, but I haven't heard a peep. Previous to my invoice, they'd been hot to trot to get these scenes shot. I'm out of town on vacation this week, but next week I'll ping them again and ask them what's up.

My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth. I did mention to the client that the full-size scenes for which I built the custom lighting system were going to be priced significantly higher than the tiles sheets since I've already got considerable time and expense into the job. Honestly I wasn't hearing any reassuring words there. Perhaps I called their bluff by invoicing them on the "28 tiles" job and they realize now that the full-scene work is going to cost real money. That would be especially annoying because they mentioned they are making a LOT of money from these tiles. He mentioned some recent orders, and they are way into the 5 figures territory. So it's not like they're on a shoestring budget. Good pictures are vital to their business model and they know this.

So at this point, who knows. I'm going to take previously given advice above, and try to nail them down to a contract next week. If that doesn't fly, I'll pull the lights apart and try to return the pieces to recoup my costs. Lesson learned I guess, although I probably wouldn't do anything differently next time. I'm learning that business is often done in small towns like this with a hand shake. And people flaking out on deals is par for the course. C'est la vie.

Cheers,
-joel

[Cygnus Studios]

I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total)

My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth.

These two comments are a direct result of each other.
I understand looking at the long term and structuring the pay to reflect that, but it is always easier to lower prices than to raise them.

Their profit margins have nothing to do with you. You cannot base your prices on what they may or may not profit from selling their products. That is out of your control. Therefor it should be out of your mind.

Whether you believe it, like it, or even intend it, once you agree to take photos for money, you are now a business. Your time has a certain value to it.
Your time value doesn't change if you are taking photos of a matchbox car for Ebay, or a ten million dollar home.
You really need to determine what your time value is. Now you may only be worth $20 an hour, or you may be worth $200 per hour, but that has to be your decision. Never allow the client to dictate what your time is worth.

You should control when and to whom discounts are given. I suggest that you give them to long term clients with proven accounts, but that is only my opinion.
Unless you also plan on being the clients business partner, their profits should never enter into your mind.
They could have the greatest product in the world, with fabulous photos, but that doesn't guarantee success. It certainly isn't your job to worry about it.

Good pictures are vital to their business model and they know this.

If they truly understand this, then you have two jobs.

1. Distinquish the difference in value between good photos and okay photos.
2. Deliver good photos.

[Blaker]

Thanks for your interest. Things may have gotten a little strange. The partner who runs the gem tile business had me do an interim shoot for them. I shot 28 12" square tile sheets in a light tent for them to put on a couple of websites. I did great job on these. I spent 4 hours on the shoot, two of which was doing a meticulous setup and checking and rechecking exposures. Then we ran all the tiles through.

After shooting, but before processing, I reviewed the shots with the client who liked them. At that point I said we probably should discuss a fee. I asked what the last photographer had charged them who did this sort of work, and he said that they were never billed for it. I asked him if he was expecting me to work for free as well and he said no. I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total) delivered in three sizes on CDs (two copies, since they are sending one out to an affiliate). The client said he thought that was reasonable. Now I can almost hear the boos and hisses that I did this job so cheap, and it's true. Really, I just wanted to do a good job so that I'd get the much larger follow-on work.

Having agreed on the price, I spent another couple of hours processing, cropping, and sizing the shots into three different sizes (thumbs, websize, and full size). I delivered the CD's and presented them with an invoice. I also asked about scheduling the larger scene work with the lights I built and they said they'd get back to me on that. It's been over a week, but I haven't heard a peep. Previous to my invoice, they'd been hot to trot to get these scenes shot. I'm out of town on vacation this week, but next week I'll ping them again and ask them what's up.

My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth. I did mention to the client that the full-size scenes for which I built the custom lighting system were going to be priced significantly higher than the tiles sheets since I've already got considerable time and expense into the job. Honestly I wasn't hearing any reassuring words there. Perhaps I called their bluff by invoicing them on the "28 tiles" job and they realize now that the full-scene work is going to cost real money. That would be especially annoying because they mentioned they are making a LOT of money from these tiles. He mentioned some recent orders, and they are way into the 5 figures territory. So it's not like they're on a shoestring budget. Good pictures are vital to their business model and they know this.

So at this point, who knows. I'm going to take previously given advice above, and try to nail them down to a contract next week. If that doesn't fly, I'll pull the lights apart and try to return the pieces to recoup my costs. Lesson learned I guess, although I probably wouldn't do anything differently next time. I'm learning that business is often done in small towns like this with a hand shake. And people flaking out on deals is par for the course. C'est la vie.

Cheers,
-joel


I'm not really surprised by this- you're are just another in a series of photographers that have given them photos for free- so why should they have any appreciation for the value and skills of a photographer?
I said in one of my earlier posts to you ,

"If you give away your product for pennies, they will think that's what the product is worth, and then when you out of the blue want to charge $$$$$$$, they will find someone else who will give away the product for pennies.
So don't undervalue yourself and don't undercut other photogs by giving it away for essentially nothing."

So they got a bunch of photos of tiles essentially for free from you- that is, IF they pay you. So you will now walk away, and they will string along the next photographer until they get their next set of photos for free, and on and on.
It's self perpetuating, and it is one of the reasons that photographers ARE so undervalued.
You present yourself as a photographer, you take on a job, you should have a contract in place before you make one click of the shutter.

[kdog]

Well, I knew that was coming. :wxwax

Hey, at least I billed them. Evidently nobody has done that before. So that's a start. Billing is one thing, but collecting is another. Let's see if they pay my invoice and schedule the larger follow-on shoot. That's where the larger money will be.

Thanks again guys. I appreciate the input.
-joel

[dlplumer]

Well, I knew that was coming. :wxwax

Hey, at least I billed them. Evidently nobody has done that before. So that's a start. Billing is one thing, but collecting is another. Let's see if they pay my invoice and schedule the larger follow-on shoot. That's where the larger money will be.

Thanks again guys. I appreciate the input.
-joel

Hi Joel. This thread is very intersting, and has inspired me to give you my $500 (:rofl ) I clearly am not an expert on photo pricing, but I am an organizational effectiveness expert, and the one thing I can advise you on, which I imagine you have already learned, is to get a firm contract/agreement in place before you do any work or invest any money.

You obviously put a lot of work into what you did do, and I know that your talent, brains, and work ethic are worth way more than you think. As a person who makes a living apart from photography, you do not need to be tentative about asking more than you think is fair, and to be willing to walk away if they don't agree. I would also consider getting half up front, and half on delivery.:D :D :deal

Best wishes,

Dan

[Cygnus Studios]

You obviously put a lot of work into what you did do, and I know that your talent, brains, and work ethic are worth way more than you think. As a person who makes a living apart from photography, you do not need to be tentative about asking more than you think is fair, and to be willing to walk away if they don't agree. I would also consider getting half up front, and half on delivery.

:agree

[AaronNelson]

Thanks for your interest. Things may have gotten a little strange. The partner who runs the gem tile business had me do an interim shoot for them. I shot 28 12" square tile sheets in a light tent for them to put on a couple of websites. I did great job on these. I spent 4 hours on the shoot, two of which was doing a meticulous setup and checking and rechecking exposures. Then we ran all the tiles through.

After shooting, but before processing, I reviewed the shots with the client who liked them. At that point I said we probably should discuss a fee. I asked what the last photographer had charged them who did this sort of work, and he said that they were never billed for it. I asked him if he was expecting me to work for free as well and he said no. I told him that I'd give him a good price since I wanted an ongoing relationship with them, and quoted $7.50 a shot ($210 total) delivered in three sizes on CDs (two copies, since they are sending one out to an affiliate). The client said he thought that was reasonable. Now I can almost hear the boos and hisses that I did this job so cheap, and it's true. Really, I just wanted to do a good job so that I'd get the much larger follow-on work.

Having agreed on the price, I spent another couple of hours processing, cropping, and sizing the shots into three different sizes (thumbs, websize, and full size). I delivered the CD's and presented them with an invoice. I also asked about scheduling the larger scene work with the lights I built and they said they'd get back to me on that. It's been over a week, but I haven't heard a peep. Previous to my invoice, they'd been hot to trot to get these scenes shot. I'm out of town on vacation this week, but next week I'll ping them again and ask them what's up.

My fear is that they have no appreciation what a photographer's time and skills are worth. I did mention to the client that the full-size scenes for which I built the custom lighting system were going to be priced significantly higher than the tiles sheets since I've already got considerable time and expense into the job. Honestly I wasn't hearing any reassuring words there. Perhaps I called their bluff by invoicing them on the "28 tiles" job and they realize now that the full-scene work is going to cost real money. That would be especially annoying because they mentioned they are making a LOT of money from these tiles. He mentioned some recent orders, and they are way into the 5 figures territory. So it's not like they're on a shoestring budget. Good pictures are vital to their business model and they know this.

So at this point, who knows. I'm going to take previously given advice above, and try to nail them down to a contract next week. If that doesn't fly, I'll pull the lights apart and try to return the pieces to recoup my costs. Lesson learned I guess, although I probably wouldn't do anything differently next time. I'm learning that business is often done in small towns like this with a hand shake. And people flaking out on deals is par for the course. C'est la vie.

Cheers,
-joel

Joel, when you get back be sure to provide them a sample shot from your location lighting setup...that way they can reference it to whatever they are comparing it too... maybe the shots that the managers daughters boyfriend said he would do for free...err, i mean for the price to allow him to date his daughter...ya know what i mean...

[wildviper]

This thread is very interesting. I recently did a free commercial shoot and then was asked to quote for more. I quoted above what I normally would and to my surprise, I got the job (and few others after).

So, the underlying theme here is what interested me...quote what you think and before you tell it to them...add a bit more to it.

What is the status on this Joel? Did you get paid? Did you get the bigger job?

By the way, could you have done this with HDR/Enfuse??

[kdog]

This thread is very interesting. I recently did a free commercial shoot and then was asked to quote for more. I quoted above what I normally would and to my surprise, I got the job (and few others after).

So, the underlying theme here is what interested me...quote what you think and before you tell it to them...add a bit more to it.

What is the status on this Joel? Did you get paid? Did you get the bigger job?

By the way, could you have done this with HDR/Enfuse??
Hi there, thanks for the bump and thinking of me. Ok, time for a status report.

Things are actually progressing with this job, albeit slowly.

First, I did get paid for the 28-tile-shoot. It took a while, but evidently I had submitted the invoice to the wrong partner. I know better now. The upshot is that I feel we now have a working financial relationship.

Status on the big interior shots is a little more complicated. I took a run at using the huge light setup I built on location at the owner's house to photograph his kitchen which is done up in his custom tile. Turns out he has a coffered ceiling, and I could only fit 2 out of my 4 llights in the center of the kitchen. So of course the lighting was uneven, which of course was the problem everyone else has. I'll need to construct a different configuration for my lights to make this work.

I processed my best sample shots by balancing the light as best I could in Photoshop. I also produced an HDR version which helped a lot and looked pretty good. Still, I don't think it's my best work. I sent the shots and a list of three things that needed improvement to my client. I also told him that I would try again in a few weeks after I rebuild the light setup. He answered, and said my "failure" was the best shot he's seen of the kitchen yet. He's psyched to see my followon work.

A day later, he sends me an email saying that he talked it over with his partner (the artistic director among other things) who says he can work with these shots as is! So I emailed him back and told him I'd still have to charge for the photo, even though I acknowledge it's not my best work. I told him the price would be $350 (yes, I can already hear the boos and hisses.) He replied and reiterated that he'll be anxious to see what I do on my next attempt. (In other words, he balked). So....

Lesson learned is that perhaps I shouldn't have volunteered all the flaws in my first attempt and perhaps he would have paid for it. My strategy is to rebuild the light setup when I get a chance, and go back for a reshoot. If I do nail the shot, I think the price will have to go up though. Thoughts?

Thanks and I appreciate all the thoughts and comments to date!
-joel

[Cygnus Studios]

Lesson learned is that perhaps I shouldn't have volunteered all the flaws in my first attempt and perhaps he would have paid for it. My strategy is to rebuild the light setup when I get a chance, and go back for a reshoot. If I do nail the shot, I think the price will have to go up though. Thoughts?

It sounds as if you are on the right track. There will certainly be more lessons to be learned as you progress.
Keep in mind that the photographer and the client will often see the image in a different frame of mind. We tend to see angles, light, composition and processing. The client sees things that they like or don't like. Simple as that.
If you interrupt that process it will only cause you headaches. Just accept that they like it and move on.

[kdog]

Thanks, Steve. I hear what you're saying and it sounds like sage advice.

-joel

[Sam]

Kdog,

I can't wait no longer.................................What's the latest word?

Oh, and before I would dimantal your light set up I would test it out. If say it really works well you would have a unique service to offer.

Sam

[kdog]

Kdog,

I can't wait no longer.................................What's the latest word?

Oh, and before I would dimantal your light set up I would test it out. If say it really works well you would have a unique service to offer.

Sam

Sam, I just posted an update yesterday. Look up a couple of posts. :deal

Or just click here: http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1131097&postcount=41

Cheers, and thanks for thinking of me.
-joel

[Sam]

Joel,

I done missed that post. :huh

I would love to see the shot you did take.

I think you, (all of us) need to be very careful about voicing our thoughts and concerns that we could do better.

I know I could type this post up better tomorrow, should I delay posting?

The client said you gave him the best shot he has received from any of the other photographers. While you think you can do better, and I believe you, I think he would have been satisfied if your price would have been what was originally agreed on. One problem as I see it is you seem to have given him a price after the fact that may have been more that he expected, and then you let him off the hook, (so to speak) by telling him that your shot which he thought was the best he had was a failure and you would do better next time.

Heck, if I were your client I would let you try again. I have nothing to loose.

I think if your giving the client good usable product you should get compensated for it.

Sam

[kdog]

Sam, yeah, I kind of blew it for sure. Although, the chronology isn't quite as you stated (not sure it makes a big difference though.) What actually happened was this. After the shoot, I emailed him two sample shots and it was in that email that I explained several items that I wasn't completely satisfied with. He then came back and said the bit about them being the best they've seen. Then the next day, he emailed and made it sound like they wanted to use these shots. Then I gave his the price, and he balked.

But you're right. Unless he's in a big rush to use a shot, he'd be crazy not to wait for my next attempt. Although if I nail the hell out of it, I feel like I should raise the price. I've got to totally rebuild the light system to fit in his funky kitchen. And just that effort alone is worth more than $350. Way more.

Ok, you want pictures? So you want to see my failures? Fine, see if I care. :D

Here's a typical shot.
http://www.jacara.com/cpg144/albums/tile_gig/IMG_1110.jpg

I used the shadow/highlights tool to balance out the lighting. Even so, you can still see the glare from the two lights I used which were so close together in the center of the kitchen, that I shoot right between them with very little room. I had almost no light towards the sides of the kitchen. Before I processed it, it really, really looked like crap. It's still crap honestly. What I said in my original email was that I saw three problems. The uneven lighting and glare, a green color cast (those cabs should be white), and some perspective (barrell?) distortion. (I'm actually pretty good at eliminating lens distortion, but this is an odd one. Would a tilt-shift help here?)

Here's a crop from that same shot.
http://www.jacara.com/cpg144/albums/tile_gig/normal_IMG_1110_crop.jpg
This is one reason I bought the 5DMII. Amazing resolution, I feel.

The tiles are pieces of gemstones infused in copper and other metals in a patented process. This tile probably runs a few hundred bucks a square foot.

The following shot is an HDR version of the same scene to see if that would help balance the light. Honestly, I think it's an improvement, and so did the client. It's also a little tighter crop, so it's hard to compare.
http://www.jacara.com/cpg144/albums/tile_gig/IMG_1109_10_11.jpg

See how nice the colors are to the sides without the light? I want to get those colors all the way across the kitchen. Not washed out, which is what I currently have in the center of the scene. So more lights, but I need to diffuse them more as well.

Cheers,
-joel

[Sam]

Joel,

OK I can see some of the issues. I have a few thoughts (very few but every once in awhile :D ) I think the main issue is even light not the amount. can you say cover the windows with a while sheet (diffuser) to get a more even light? It doesn't matter if the room is dim, the subject is stationary so longer shutter speeds is fine.

As to the price, you need to determine this but my philosophy on this is simple, If I quote a price I will do my best to do the job for the price quoted. If I think I need to build a lighting set up, include the cost into my pricing and don't get it right the first time it's not the clients fault, it's mine. If the parameters of the project change or there are issues the client didn't tell me about that would be a different story.

I also played with your image a little. here is my result.

Sam

[kdog]

Thanks, Sam. Good point on sticking to the quoted figure, although I did give him a range.

Your thoughts on the lighting echo mine. The reason to add more lights is to even out the lighting, not to make it brighter. I diffused the lights with panels made from white rip-stop nylon, but that didn't diffuse them enough. I'm going to try the white sheet trick next. No window lighting, BTW. It's all from my daylight corrected fluorescents, so there's no clashing of light sources.

You did a good job on further reducing the glare in my image. You gonna tell me how you did it, or do I need to bribe you? :wink

Really appreciate your input!
-joel

[Sam]

Kdog,

Basically I adjusted the perspective and white balance. masked off the highlighted tile with a low opacity brush and adjusted the levels. Then I dodged the darker areas on the hood to produce less contrast between the reflection and the dark areas.

Sam

[kdog]

Kdog,

Basically I adjusted the perspective and white balance. masked off the highlighted tile with a low opacity brush and adjusted the levels. Then I dodged the darker areas on the hood to produce less contrast between the reflection and the dark areas.

Sam

Wow, I've got a lot to learn. :huh