tfp and negotiating with a musician

[Oakley]

Hi dgrin.

I'll try to make this quick as it's my bed time. Point form should work...

- A musician has offered a tfp deal (TFP The term means: “time for prints.” A model works for a photographer without a cash payment. Instead, the model is given a pre-arranged number of prints and/or enlargements as payment for her work.)
- hmmm....I asked for details.
- The musician wants photos for "promo shots. used for web promo, a tour poster & potentially some print to go w ads for shows & interviews".
- My response is.....rather long.....


I have to be honest. I am struggling with how to come up with a solution for appropriate compensation for my services. One of my primary goals with offering my photography services in the Kootenay's is to maintain a high standard for professional photography services for ALL photographers in the area. This means making sure that prices offered for services are such that someone who does this work as their full time job can live and feed their family. I could go on and on about this, but the honest truth is that I feel it is my ethical duty to charge what is fair for the good of the whole. I'm sure you understand where I am coming from with this...

So what is fair? That really does depend on the details. Obviously I am licensing my photos for Dom's use - but we need to get clear on the how many photos, where the photos will be used, how big they will be, for how long, how many times and for what purpose. Your info above is a good start, but I need to know more.

I really do want this to work. I am excited about the opportunity to shoot Dom - but I want to get this right. So please be patient with me. I will bring my camera to Oso on Sunday - but let's talk first and get the details sorted out before we take the next step.

If I am going to be a professional photographer I have to start as I intend to go. I want to give you amazing photos of Dom so that he can sell himself and his music. And I want to be compensated for that work and approach this relationship with professionalism.

And I also need information about the image the Dom is trying to achieve. I took a look at his myspace page and didn't find too much info. The video of his live music was awesome. We most certaintly need to shoot outdoors. I was thinking down by the tracks....but we can get to those details when we're ready.

I will call you tomorrow . Thanks for your patience with this.

Cheers,

Ryan
Her response is:

ryan

am glad you said this & i absolutely agree. i want to feel we are supporting each other in this arrangement as well as maintaining professional integrity, not that we are solely benefiting. dom & i both have a great respect for art & a deep commitment towards supporting a community where one can make a living with their talents. it is the whole reason dom left sydney & moved here to pursue his music, it is possible here.
lets just plan to meet for coffee... & chat about the rest! dom will be the one with the particulars on what he's looking for so best to involve him of course. i'm sure we can sort something out that feels good.

thanks for being honest, give me a ring tomorrow!


Cool. We're on the same page. I'm stoked. But I'm also new and a bit scared. So I would imagine we'll talk details. But then I have to provide a quote. And I really have no clue. Is it $50 or is $1000? All I really know is that it's not free.

Any help?

PS...I do own "Pricing Photography" and that has at least got me to where I am now....but I don't want to blow it.

So I turn to you, dgrin, as I often do in tough times....:D

[Matt S]

Well it's like you said, you need more information. Without knowing the intended use and the scope of that use it is very hard to produce a quote.

[blackshadow]

I deal with musicians all the time - for this type of shoot I would be charging somewhere in the order of $250-$500 for a shoot up to a couple of hours long. I post process and supply them with a disk of hires and web size (800px longest side) images. Usually between 5 and 30 images depending on the shoot.

I license my images to them for promotional use only - that covers web, editorial, tour posters, CD artwork (with credit), tour ads etc but not for merchandising (tee shirts, posters for sale etc - that is a separate license and fees are dependent on the number of merch items printed - eg for each run of 1,000 tee shirts $100).

Good luck with it.



Hi dgrin.

I'll try to make this quick as it's my bed time. Point form should work...

- A musician has offered a tfp deal (TFP The term means: “time for prints.” A model works for a photographer without a cash payment. Instead, the model is given a pre-arranged number of prints and/or enlargements as payment for her work.)
- hmmm....I asked for details.
- The musician wants photos for "promo shots. used for web promo, a tour poster & potentially some print to go w ads for shows & interviews".
- My response is.....rather long.....


Her response is:


Cool. We're on the same page. I'm stoked. But I'm also new and a bit scared. So I would imagine we'll talk details. But then I have to provide a quote. And I really have no clue. Is it $50 or is $1000? All I really know is that it's not free.

Any help?

PS...I do own "Pricing Photography" and that has at least got me to where I am now....but I don't want to blow it.

So I turn to you, dgrin, as I often do in tough times....:D

[Oakley]

Thanks for the advice blackshadow. This afternoon I met with the musician and we talk about what he wanted. Here is the email I have drafted to him. I would love any comments before I hit the send button. And I would also like to ask if I need to include a Model Release for this work. My thought is yes - but man those things would scare me off if I was the client.

Hey Dom,

Great to meet you today. If you didn't have to go to work I feel we could have ordered a couple more coffees and sat there for a long time chatting. I'm listening to your CD as I'm writing this. I think your music is great. It's my style...

The following is my best best attempt at writing up a quote/contract:

You, Dominique Fraissard, are the 'client' and will sometimes be referred to as 'you'. I, Ryan Oakley, am the 'photographer' and will sometimes be referred to as 'me'. Together we'll be referred to as 'we'. (:

What you, the client, will receive:
- Shoots at 2 or 3 locations. I will assume about 2 hours worth of shooting.
- Approx. 20 edited high resolution jpeg photos will be uploaded into a password protected gallery on my website for you to choose the photos that will be of use to you for your promotion. These photos will be uploaded within 48 hours of the shoot.
- You will choose 3 of those photos which will be licensed to you for the following uses - promotion posters (max size of printed photo will be 11x17) and website. No services will be provided for the creation of the poster. I'm just providing you with the photos.
- A link to your website (myspace?) will be added to your gallery in my website and on my facebook page.
- I provide you a guarantee that if you are not completely satisfied with the photos, you'll get your money returned in full.

What I, the photographer, will receive:
- $150 - received up front. (OR ---- If you are willing to trade services, I would like to know more about framing. If you could teach me, then let's do it. But it sounded from our conversation that you were not prepared to offer that at this time. Hence the $150.)
- Photo credit on all mediums where a photo of mine is being used (Photography by Ryan Oakley - www.thepupil.ca (http://www.thepupil.ca/))
- A kickass Dominique Fraissard "Tabula Rasa" CD (received - thank you!)
- A written testimony for my use on my website - www.thepupil.ca (http://www.thepupil.ca/)

Notes:
- The photographer retains all rights to the photographs.
- Photos will only be used for the purposes outlined above. Any other use (such as CD covers/art, merchandise, ect.) must be negotiated for compensation.


We'll plan the shoot for Friday Jan 23rd (depending on the snow, of course) or sometime next weekend that works. I understand you need these photos soon. We'll start shooting at "the room" and go from there. Where is this room, by the way? Is there a way for me to check it out before Friday?

Please reply to this email stating that you accept the above OR provide me with information on any revisions you would like to see. I am confident we can find a solution that meets both our needs.

You can always reach me on my cell - 505-8028. Again, it was great meeting you today and I am excited at the thought of working with you.

Cheers,

Ryan

[xris]

Yer makin' yer way OK...!

One hint... ...- Photo credit on all mediums where a photo of mine ...The plural of 'medium' is 'media.' "on all media..."
:thumb

[Toshido]

- Shoots at 2 or 3 locations. I will assume about 2 hours worth of shooting.
- Approx. 20 edited high resolution jpeg photos will be uploaded into a password protected gallery on my website for you to choose the photos that will be of use to you for your promotion. These photos will be uploaded within 48 hours of the shoot.

Personally I would try to avoid being vague about these things. If you said two locations with 1 hour at each location. Then on the day if you and he were willing you could offer a third location and some more time for free. Then you are still doing what you are saying here but being very clear about the time and number of locations. Anything above what you are putting in the contract is a free bonus and adds to perceived value received.
I would avoid saying approximately. Again same as above I would say something like 15 and then add more for free. Or perhaps state a minimum number to be added. This is just to avoid the vague and interpretable use of approximately. Approximately might mean 19-21 to you while it means 20-50 to him. yes exaggeration but you get the point.

Last comment is the timing. 2-3 location about 2 hours worth of shooting. Is that total or per location? With you including "worth of shooting" I assume travel is free then. You may want to specify a travel time limit. Also you might consider specifying if the shooting time includes set up, if you have lights reflectors etc. to set up.

Finally, congrats and best of luck.

[ian408]

I'm with the others on specifics. It's better to be more specific so there is no disagreement later.

So "shooting: 2 locations for a total of 2 hours including travel time" or "shooting: 2 locations for 2 hours each plus travel time" are very different terms but equally clear.

Don't forget to watermark your images when you up load them.

[Oakley]

Great points everyone. In the future I will certainly be more specific (even if my intention is to go above and beyond if needed).

To finish this thread off --- here is the musician's response to my quote and my final response back to him....

He wrote:

pardon me for not getting back to you sooner. a truly difficult week for my partner and i. now i'm sick. boring. anyway, i appreciate the effort you've gone to to quote (a reasonable quote) for me and write up an arrangement. i suppose for me right now i need to be honest with myself that i'm in a 'beg, borrow and steal' period in my music career. i guess i can add 'trade'. in australia i record whole albums from preproduction to mastering and manufacture, all in the black. however, my circumstances here dictate that spending up on pictures when i need music hardware for live work, is not the way to go. i'm committed to keeping it local so, as artists working to exist wholy in our work, i expect we mat cross paths to mutually benefit each other in the future. thanks again,

To which I responded:

Great to hear back from you. --- I'm sorry you guys are having such a rough go.

I completely understand the tough decisions that must be made on how we spend our limited funds to build our dream. Please keep me in mind when the time is right for you to get some shots. Honestly, if you have access to the photo that is in your current CD cover, I think that's really all you need right now for promo material.

I am sure we'll cross paths again real soon. No hard feelings.

Peace,

Ryan