Sharp Shooters Forensics - What do you think?

[Greensquared]

OK all, I've had another idea to push the Challenges even further and eventually build the tutorial archives of Dgrin.

I'd really like to post an "after the fact" tutorial. I'll pick one subject, typically very basic stuff, and use your shots from the previous round as good and not-so-good examples of each. Things covered would be along the lines of:

Rule of thirds
Contrast
Focal Point
Bokeh
Fill flash
Natural light

I have a full list of topics, but would select something after viewing the images of each round that I feel would be particularly appropriate. I would PM you first to get permission to use your image for this purpose, but you would have to have a tough skin and desire to help others learn if I choose one of your images as the "not-so-good" example.

These tutorials would be hopefully be rewritten in a more generic format (not Challenge specific) and would be placed in the Dgrin Tutorials for the benefit of all.

Unlike like Nikolai's Weekly Assignments (http://www.dgrin.com/forumdisplay.php?f=42), (which I highly recommend, especially if you are intimidated by other areas of Dgrin), these would be a dissection of a few images after the fact, and may very well have nothing to do with the theme that was set.

What do you all think? :ear

[Nikolai]

Emily,
I think it's a great idea, my only concern is your time...:scratch Do you, like, sleep at all? :rolleyes :wink

[Art Scott]

Emily,
I think it's a great idea, my only concern is your time...:scratch Do you, like, sleep at all? :rolleyes :wink

She is probably buying ROCKSTAR by the car load and Ma Huang by the ton :rofl :rofl :rofl

Emily... great idea:thumb:thumb:thumb:bow:bow:bow:thumb:thumb:bow :bow

[Greensquared]

She is probably buying ROCKSTAR by the car load and Ma Huang by the ton :rofl :rofl :rofl

Emily... great idea:thumb:thumb:thumb:bow:bow:bow:thumb:thumb:bow :bow

I know not what these are...please tell me more!!!!:rofl

[richtersl]

LOL...Ma Huang is also known as Ephedra. It's an herb that's used to give you more energy. OK, it's a stimulant. :rofl

[Nikolai]

I know not what these are...please tell me more!!!!:rofl
Yeahright...:rofl

[richtersl]

I'd really like to post an "after the fact" tutorial. I'll pick one subject, typically very basic stuff, and use your shots from the previous round as good and not-so-good examples of each...

How do you plan on presenting the "not-so-good" examples? :scratch That could get tricky and cause some bad feelings.

[Nikolai]

How do you plan on presenting the "not-so-good" examples? :scratch That could get tricky and cause some bad feelings.
That's easy. Take any of mine and go have a ball...:lol3

[fashiznitsngrins]

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly would not have a problem with you using any of mine for examples as I am sure you would be tackful about your comments and not just rip an image apart for the sake of it. I think this is the best way to learn as it helps us get into the minds of *what were the judges thinking* and *why didn't that one make the cut* and will help us compose images better before we even start shooting. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Greensquared]

How do you plan on presenting the "not-so-good" examples? :scratch That could get tricky and cause some bad feelings.
I can only speak for myself, but I certainly would not have a problem with you using any of mine for examples as I am sure you would be tackful about your comments and not just rip an image apart for the sake of it. I think this is the best way to learn as it helps us get into the minds of *what were the judges thinking* and *why didn't that one make the cut* and will help us compose images better before we even start shooting. Just my 2 cents worth.

Yes, I would certainly do my best to be tactful and pointed. And, what I would really like is if those particular photogs might be able to reshoot/rework the image and post the improved version. This is not meant to embarass anyone, but to help everyone to grow. And since I would be PMing them first, it would not be without their permission.

[Greensquared]

Emily,
I think it's a great idea, my only concern is your time...:scratch Do you, like, sleep at all? :rolleyes :wink

Hmmm, well, yes, I do sleep. At the moment, the biggest time drain is the full feedback, but I want to keep doing that. It just may be several days before I get it posted. Also, I should have my system for doing stuff streamlined soon. I was planning on just writing some basic tutorials and trying to take example images myself, but I thought this would be a much more fun way to do it (and less work for me).

I am very blessed to now be a stay-at-home mom who is homeschooling and have a few side jobs. I do have an extremely full life, but this is a passion of mine. And I need adult interaction time. For as long as I have the energy for it, I plan to give to this community as much as I can, as I feel it has brought me so far. In October I have another project coming up which will take more of my time (nursery supervisor for our church). This is another reason why I can't do the Sunday midnight thread close thing. Really, can you imagine running a nursery full of crying babies and hyper toddlers, come home and do a full family dinner (which is my Sunday tradition), and then stay up until midnight for this...then to have to be up raring to go for my kids on Monday? I think not.

Okay, well that was probably way more personal information than anyone is interested in, but you asked a personal question that caused me to seriously contemplate my commitments. :giggle

[davev]

I think this would be better set in the techniques or finishing school areas.

Plus, I think you could be swaying people into processing to your tastes, to merely get to the voting round, rather than what they really wanted to do.
I can see the thread in my mind, "I processed this shot just like you said, why didn't it make the final list???"

I think if folks want opinions, they start a thread with their shot in it, and ask, "What do you think?"
Or start a thread after, asking "What did I do wrong?"

Sorry, but I just see a can of worms getting opened up.

[richtersl]

:dunno I don't have a problem with my pictures being picked apart, either.

I just don't want to see Emily get into a tussle like Shay did with someone who got all bent out of shape as to why her photo didn't make the cut in a challenge. He explained very nicely and she got really defensive about it. (OK, she got just a tad nasty.) She never showed up again in the challenges, either. So here we had someone whose ego got bruised for not making the cut. I'd hate to think how she'd have behaved had her photo been ripped apart as a not-so-good example, even tactfully. YIKES :eek1

[KevXman]

If someone can learn from my mistakes I would not have a problem as long as you extended a hand to help me back up after knocking me down and stomping on my dreams.
Just keep the laughing down to a minimum. :haha:cry

— Kevin :thumb

[Greensquared]

I think this would be better set in the techniques or finishing school areas.

Plus, I think you could be swaying people into processing to your tastes, to merely get to the voting round, rather than what they really wanted to do.
I can see the thread in my mind, "I processed this shot just like you said, why didn't it make the final list???"

I think if folks want opinions, they start a thread with their shot in it, and ask, "What do you think?"
Or start a thread after asking "What did I do wrong?"

Sorry, but I just see a can of worms getting opened up.

Good point, but I'm really talking the basics here, not tastes. Known and respected composition rules, light, exposure, etc. Stuff you can really find in any basic photography book or basic photography class, except with your own work as examples. Just because an image follows the rule of thirds or not, does not mean the image will be a success or failure in these Challenges.

However, if a number of you agree with Dave here, then I can certainly just write the tutorials in my own time and shoot my own decent vs. crappy images for Dgrin.:dunno

[KevXman]

Good point, but I'm really talking the basics here, not tastes. Known and respected composition rules, light, exposure, etc. Stuff you can really find in any basic photography book or basic photography class, except with your own work as examples. Just because an image follows the rule of thirds or not, does not mean the image will be a success or failure in these Challenges.

However, if a number of you agree with Dave here, then I can certainly just write the tutorials in my own time and shoot my own decent vs. crappy images for Dgrin.:dunno

I'm always trying learn something new or improve myself in what I love doing and would be more than happy to help someone else do so as well. Whether you decide to do it here as an extention of the challenges or in another area of the forum you will have my support.

— Kevin

[Greensquared]

I'm always trying learn something new or improve myself in what I love doing and would be more than happy to help someone else do so as well. Whether you decide to do it here as an extention of the challenges or in another area of the forum you will have my support.

— Kevin

Thanks Kevin!

[jziegler]

As someone who runs towards the bottom of the pack in the challenges (and LPS before them) when I enter, I have mixed feelings about this idea. It could be a great learning experience, or it could be humiliating. Emily, I think that you would have a good chance to make it constructive, your feedback so far has been excellent. I like the overall idea, but I'm not sure how it would work.

[Greensquared]

As someone who runs towards the bottom of the pack in the challenges (and LPS before them) when I enter, I have mixed feelings about this idea. It could be a great learning experience, or it could be humiliating. Emily, I think that you would have a good chance to make it constructive, your feedback so far has been excellent. I like the overall idea, but I'm not sure how it would work.

Hmmm...ok well the only alternative that I can think of is to use some of your images as good examples, and then shoot some others myelf as bad examples (that shouldn't be too hard, heck, I'll just search my existing files...plenty of useful stuff there :D ). At least that way half of the shooting work would be done for me and no feelings hurt, yeah? But then again, what's the point of even putting it in the Challenges forum? Maybe I'll just ask some of you for permission to use select images when I go put my own tutorial together. Or maybe I'll just stick the whole thing on the back burner for now...

[KurtPreston]

Why not try a test run or two with shots from already completed challenges to let everyone see exactly what you are talking about, and to get a feel for if it will work.

I think the idea is splendid, and you have pre-approved, blanket permission to use any shots I submit to the challenges :) You may also beat me like a rented mule for any of he mistakes I make :beatwax

[jziegler]

Hmmm...ok well the only alternative that I can think of is to use some of your images as good examples, and then shoot some others myelf as bad examples (that shouldn't be too hard, heck, I'll just search my existing files...plenty of useful stuff there :D ). At least that way half of the shooting work would be done for me and no feelings hurt, yeah? But then again, what's the point of even putting it in the Challenges forum? Maybe I'll just ask some of you for permission to use select images when I go put my own tutorial together. Or maybe I'll just stick the whole thing on the back burner for now...

As I said, I like the idea overall, I just have concerns about implementing it so that the photographers for the bad examples don't feel bad about it. As long as it is done in a constructive manner, it could be a good learning experience for all. If good advice on how to improve something is given (which I'm guessing that you would) then it has value. If it is just this one is good, this one is bad, there is much less value to it. I would like to improve (as would most of the people participating in the challenges) and see how this could take them up another level. But it is something that must be done carefully. I'm having difficulty putting my thoughts into words here, so I'll just hope that I have made a little bit of sense. I don't want to stop this idea, I really like it, but I want to make sure that it can be a positive experience for everyone, even those whose photos are chosen as bad examples of something.

[Tango]

how about set up like Marc Muench and Schmoo have it in the lanscape forum.??
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=88305


people whom want to submit for c&c of their past entries....

[Nikolai]

how about set up like Marc Muench and Schmoo have it in the lanscape forum.??
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=88305


people whom want to submit for c&c of their past entries....

Well, now we seem to get into the whole WP area..:-)

[Greensquared]

Well, now we seem to get into the whole WP area..:-)

Yeah, that's totally not where I'm wanting to go with this. Hmm, let me see if I can do a mock trial run with my own shots and see what you guys think.

[Nikolai]

Yeah, that's totally not where I'm wanting to go with this. Hmm, let me see if I can do a mock trial run with my own shots and see what you guys think.
Maybe a good idea to try. Again, you can use any of mine if you deem necessary, be it for good or bad example...

[Greensquared]

DSS Forensics: Having a clear focal point

Many times we are in a place or situation that we feel is beautiful and start clicking. We see something interesting, raise the camera to our eye and snap! It's a bad habit that I find myself doing: not intentionally selecting a focal point.

Take this image as our first example:
http://greensquared.smugmug.com/photos/343812946_5BvmR-M.jpg

We have some interesting stuff going on here. The light is nice and soft, the subject's not bad at all, but the image has left the viewer questioning what the photographer was really wanting us to look at. Is it the peacock? The red hens perhaps? There's also a very distracting background with a fence, a pole, grass and whatever that metal thing is on the right. Our eyes are now darting all over the image, but not having any real place to settle, we would soon be moving on.

Example number 2:
http://greensquared.smugmug.com/photos/343812934_4fBwY-M.jpg

Now here we have the same subject, same light, but with a very definite focal point. There is no question as to what this image is about. Yes, the fence is still there, but the blur in it helps. Also the color in his face draws us in and away from the other monotones. We allow ourselves to drift around the image, but have a very definite place to settle back on.

When finding a scene pleasing, try to determine exactly what it is about that scene that you like. Zoom in, get up close. Focus on detail. Back away, zoom out. Take your time in the shooting process to really determine what you wish your image to be about, and how to best make it the focal point, and your image will have the impact you desire!

[Greensquared]

So? Does anybody out there have an opinion?

:ear

[Jet]

Great example... I dont see a problem with using material like that. Using your own material stops anyone getting touchy about their own work too. :thumb

Keep up the grand work :clap

[jziegler]

So? Does anybody out there have an opinion?

:ear

Seems good to me. If you can make them like that, I'd be happy :thumb

[Greensquared]

Great example... I dont see a problem with using material like that. Using your own material stops anyone getting touchy about their own work too. :thumb

Keep up the grand work :clap

Well, the point was that I would be using entries as examples and now my own work. This was just a "mock" version of what it would be like. If I do use my own work, then this will not happen in the Challenges forum. I'll just see about getting it posted directly in tutes.

[Jet]

Well, the point was that I would be using entries as examples and now my own work. This was just a "mock" version of what it would be like. If I do use my own work, then this will not happen in the Challenges forum. I'll just see about getting it posted directly in tutes.

Ah rightio. I think most people wouldnt have a problem with you using their entries - I certainly wouldnt, but there are the few out there that may feel the need to be asked first...?:scratch

[VelvtRide]

I love this idea! :clap :clap

I'm all for more feedback/critique on my photos (and others, too!) - it's the only way I'll get any better. I don't care if everything about it is awful - tell me what I can do to make it better!

Sometimes the truth hurts - but if you can't take it constructively, then you won't be getting any better. Pick em apart, babe! :thumb

If I can help, in any way, please let me know.


Heidi

[KurtPreston]

Not getting a good feel from that example of how it would proceed as as a form of feedback or forensics of a DSS Challenge entry. It reads more like a straight tutorial, which is cool and would be useful, but I don't see where it fits what my impression of your goal was. May just be insufficient imagination on my part though, I tend to be too literal minded.

[VelvtRide]

Not getting a good feel from that example of how it would proceed as as a form of feedback or forensics of a DSS Challenge entry. It reads more like a straight tutorial, which is cool and would be useful, but I don't see where it fits what my impression of your goal was. May just be insufficient imagination on my part though, I tend to be too literal minded.

The way I understand it is that a few pics from a DSS Challenge would be chosen as a how to and how not to comparison for tutorial purposes.

[Greensquared]

Not getting a good feel from that example of how it would proceed as as a form of feedback or forensics of a DSS Challenge entry. It reads more like a straight tutorial, which is cool and would be useful, but I don't see where it fits what my impression of your goal was. May just be insufficient imagination on my part though, I tend to be too literal minded.

Yeah, I think I'm just going to drop this idea for now. We've got enough to focus on for now anyway. Thanks for the input all. As you were...:D

[KurtPreston]

It's still an excellent idea ... so mull it over and don't let it die. May just need to approach it from a slightly different angle, like instead of thinking of it as a forensics exrecise, maybe more of a "Spotlight On" type of thing where you highlight a DSS entry that really exemplifies a rule (or counters rule to good effect) and explain why it works and how it could have gone horribly wrong.

[VisualXpressions]

I think this would be better set in the techniques or finishing school areas.

Plus, I think you could be swaying people into processing to your tastes, to merely get to the voting round, rather than what they really wanted to do.
I can see the thread in my mind, "I processed this shot just like you said, why didn't it make the final list???"

I think if folks want opinions, they start a thread with their shot in it, and ask, "What do you think?"
Or start a thread after, asking "What did I do wrong?"

Sorry, but I just see a can of worms getting opened up.

:agree

This isn't really the place for something like this in the
challenges forum... This is a competition/challenge, not a school... critique on an image is all well and good (even negative) we can all accept that, and most look forward to it... When you start using someones work as an example of how not to do something, or even as an example of how to do something, in a contest forum you are overstepping your bounds, people will get their noses out of joint... We all enter our images thinking they might be good enough to win... Any way, I could go on and on but I won't... The bottom line is that people are here, and enter the contest to win! Learning and growing as photographers is a side benefit... If people want to learn more about photography there are many other forums for that...

The Challenges are great the way they are and you are doing a wonderful job Emily!

[swintonphoto]

I think the idea would have some merit - but also some real problematic limitations. I worry it would keep a number of people from entering because they would not want to have their image shown as the bad example. I bet it would prevent some people from participating. I think we should be careful to not turn the challenges into the whipping post. While I am sure this is not the intent - some may feel that way. Maybe no one agrees with me, but, just my thoughts.

My other concern with this comes from a personal opinion I haven't shared about the setup of the challenges. I know it is not my place to suggest any areas of improvement in the challenges. However, my concern does come to light given the suggestion to create some teaching out of the entries.
I don't like to make a big deal over my artistic training, but, having spent 4 years in college disecting artwork as part of my Bachelor of Fine Arts degree, I feel one of the challenges assumptions goes against everything art can stand for. I have always had some concern over the assumption that a name alone should be sufficient for any viewer to understand the message of a piece of artwork. While this may be true for some artwork, most art historians and curators would likely roll over in their graves if that assumption was presented as the rule.
For example, the following image was one I recently entered into one of the challenges:http://jswinton.smugmug.com/photos/301067575_Mfgoq-L.jpg
The image was in the challenge "moving forward". The title of the image is "Burning Pain". I had a number of fellow dgrinners express concern that the image alone with the name did not clearly show why it fit the theme. They were exactly right. The image alone with the name does not show why it fits "moving forward". However, the following context was provided with the image when it was entered: "Insence Burning in Chinese Temple for Sichuan Earthquake Victims. I have been in China for the past week witnessing the Chinese people struggle with the earthquake tragedy. It has been a truly sobering experience. The Temples have been flooded with mourners seeking help in moving forward." Once the context was read, many digrinners agreed the image fit the theme better. However, my entry was not considered seriously by many because it didn't fit the rule that the image and short title is all that should be necessary.

Throughout history art has been created not simply to be pretty, but to send a message or make a statement. I was trained to be cautios about giving a full review of an image without understanding the artist and a host of other issues making each images message relevant, only one of which is the name. I worry that many of the evaluations would be innaccurate, not because the judges are not competent. I think the judges are great. But, I think the judges do not have enough information to provide accurate evaluations that can be used as teaching tools. Hence, I don't think using the images of another without understanding more detail regarding context and messages would be a good idea unless more contextual information can be added as part of the challenge entries.

When I presented information in front of my art classes each week, we presented and discussed contextual issues for a period of time before the artwork was even seen or discussed. I wish there was a way context could be a part of the challenge process. However, I know this is not part of the system. I am not suggesting we need to change the system again. I am simply suggesting that we may be missing the ball trying to teach without sufficient information.

Another example:
Let's say the following image was entered into a challenge called "patriotic" and its title was "Chaos in Omaha"
http://www.fototipp.hu/files/u1/omaha-beach-robert-capa.jpg

It could be easy to be critical of this image and write it off because it is not clear why it fits the theme. One might assume we don't really know what's going on, maybe its a soldier or something in the water. And what does Omaha have to do with a soldier in the water? Omaha is in the middle of the midwest, not near any ocean. We also might write it off because it really is technically poor. It's grainy, out of focus, and has a poor composition. Hence, this one is a certain write off in the challenge.
However, when the context is provided, the opinion changes:
As many of you may have recognized, this is one of Robert Capa's famous images from Omaha beach when the military went ashore on June 6, 1944. Capa is known for risking his life to photograph the assault, one that resulted in many lives lost. The image is understandably out of focus when it is recognized the context in which it was shot. Also, Life Magazine accidentally ruined the film in their haste to have it processed for printing. The result was the severe grain and blotchiness in the image. However, the image has been aplauded for years as simply fantastic because the graininess and blurrieness actually illustrates the chaos if the moment, and the patriotic sacrifice of those brave soldiers. In addition, the fact that a photographer was willing to risk his life so that the families and country of the troops could witness what is happening is as patriotic an act as a photographer has ever performed. Hence, with this context, I would vote this image number 1. However, I worry with the teaching evaluations, it would be criticized as out of focus, grainy, poor composition, and it isn't clear why it fits the theme.

[Greensquared]

I think the idea would have some merit - but also some real problematic limitations.

You pose some very real and true comments. I agree that there are definitely exceptions to every rule and sometimes it IS breaking them that deems an image brilliant. Take AaronNelson's (http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=880026&postcount=29) most recent entry. I looked at crops off-centered, and decided that his judgment call there was perfect (and applauded him for such). And that's where a difference comes in, is knowing the rules, knowing how to apply them and knowing instinctively when to ignore them. The comes with time and practice. I have taken the "history of photography" when I attended commercial photography school (it was actually one of my favorite classes), and I agree that many of the images that are now acclaimed would likely fail miserably in this contest along with many others.

As far as context goes, I truly believe that the image should stand alone in this particular contest. Your example image here truly does stand alone as an excellently executed shot, with great photojournalism potential as it draws you in. You see something truly interesting and want to know what it's about. The way these challenges will run, I will be considering each one and stating if I feel supporting information is a good idea. For the most part though, I really want the image to tell me a story in itself, without me having to question how it relates to the theme. It doesn't make the image any less brilliant, it just helps with my judging criteria. And then there are some judges who will read all supporting material, or will completely ignore the theme and just select images they like. There are no rules or guidelines for judging these rounds, other than the ones we assign for ourselves.

Okay, I really need to go back to bed now (and should totally avoid checking on on things in the middle of the night!). I have decided to put this idea on the back burner and just concentrate my efforts on what's currently in place. :D

[Tango]

Jonathan, that was expressed very well. thank you for the good read!

Emily, im glad your not going to do this or atleast put it on the back burner, i really really felt you maybe was going down a dangerous road with this and i was trying to think how to express my thoughts to you....but i believe Jonathan did far better than i would have....btw, thanks for the kind words, it made my day.